EPT[Patch 1.0.0.135: Fiora] General Discussion - Page 39
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Same rules apply, per usual. Please use the appropriate threads (QQ, Brag, Champion, etc) whenever appropriate. Keep the resident Banling content. Thanks. Happy Gaming. | ||
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Terranasaur
United States2085 Posts
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On March 03 2012 06:14 Two_DoWn wrote: Ive actually found I'm in the vast minority when it comes to this. I find the SV mentality to be a stronger overall style because it has fewer weaknesses. Its REALLY hard to screw over a jungle and mid in a game. On the other hand, playing to support mid like TOO does just makes it so that if the mid screws up its gg, and even if he DOESNT screw up he still needs to carry an extra character worth of dead wieght. I think Salce puts it best: SV is just straight up STRONGER, but TOO makes everyones (but the jungle's life easier) so people like it when jungles play that way, even if the overal style is weaker and far more limiting in terms of teamcomps. Yeah, I like it better too. Less relying on your teammates to get you wins. Hell, its not like a really really farmed Shyvana isn't scary as hell anyway. What you gonna do to a Shy that has stupid amounts of farm? You focus her thats exactly what she wants. You ignore her she chunks half your team with AoE damage. Sometimes soloqueue still terrors you ("Hey look,. that Shy engaged perfectly, ate all five ults, halfed all of their helath and killed the AD carry... probably a bad time to engage!"), but I feel like you have a much bigger impact on the game once you hit midgame/late game. | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On March 03 2012 06:19 Terranasaur wrote: I usually play the farmy junglers farmy and the ganky junglers ganky, but I think there is something to be said for asserting early pressure. I love level 2 ganks. If you get in the head of enemy laners and make them tilt you can help a lot. Kind of like having a Shaco on the enemy team just freaks everyone out. Just cuz you playing a farmy jungler doesn't mean you can't be in an opponents head. You can exert map pressure without flat out ganking them. For example, say you going from wraiths to wolves, instead of running between your towers say you go through mid lane and throw a spell/combo at the enemy mid. What you lose as the jungler? Like 5 seconds of your time, thats it... Who knows maybe you get lucky and get a kill, if not enemy mid like "Damn, that Shy could have chunked me... I shouldn't push so hard." | ||
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Terranasaur
United States2085 Posts
On March 03 2012 06:23 iCanada wrote: Just cuz you playing a farmy jungler doesn't mean you can't be in an opponents head. You can exert map pressure without flat out ganking them. For example, say you going from wraiths to wolves, instead of running between your towers say you go through mid lane and throw a spell/combo at the enemy mid. What you lose as the jungler? Like 5 seconds of your time, thats it... Who knows maybe you get lucky and get a kill, if not enemy mid like "Damn, that Shy could have chunked me... I shouldn't push so hard." Ya. I pretty much always level 2 gank mid with Shy these days. She's so fast that there is no way I could ever possibly fall behind, so I start at Wraiths, get red and run mid. Most of the time they are still level one and I can sneak around behind them and get a few good hits. If my midlane took a stun at level 1 it can easily be a kill. | ||
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ItsFunToLose
United States776 Posts
On March 03 2012 04:01 Alaric wrote: Since people complain often about Rumble, I was wondering how the ranged AD do against him at top? Probably not that great, since I've never seen it and people must have thought about it before, but on paper it looks like they are safer to harass him, can farm without getting in range of his flamethrower, and even dodge both the harpoons and the flamethrower if they put themselves in their creep wave far enough from him. The drawbacks may be that he'll outsustain them if they can't manage to dodge his harass, even with a vamp scepter, and probably outpush any that can't push mana-efficiently thanks to the heat system. How's it for practical purposes? I'm not entirely sure about all ranged AD, but in my personal experience, I've dominated rumbles with vayne, every time. Feels like a hard counter. Start boots+3. I personally like movespeed quints on vayne for top solo, but the standard AD page works too. On your first back, if i respect my opponent(and or jungle) i'll buy a dorans or two before wriggles. If i don't respect their rumble or jungler, I'll go wriggles instead since i don't need the extra cost efficient HP. I've experimented with boots-->vamp-->phage(never intending to upgrade this), and while hardly ideal for transitioning into mid/late game(much rather have that first BF item), It can snowball out of control vs most bruisers top lane once the threat of phage procs comes into play. | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On March 03 2012 06:30 Terranasaur wrote: Ya. I pretty much always level 2 gank mid with Shy these days. She's so fast that there is no way I could ever possibly fall behind, so I start at Wraiths, get red and run mid. Most of the time they are still level one and I can sneak around behind them and get a few good hits. If my midlane took a stun at level 1 it can easily be a kill. Yup, for some reason people have in their head that it is impossible for a Shy to gank early even though 90% of Shy's grab exhaust and she has like some of the strongest early game deeps in the game. I like to do the same with WW as well, I kind of feel a little bit cheesy when I do it because I know it only works because they think "Shy? Lol Shy not gonna ganks me..." You get FB you can guarantee enemy Junglers life be hell because unless you horribly fuck up something else, you get wriggles way before them which means all their Jungle are belong to you. Speaking of "cheesy", I think my SC background is why I like farmy junglers more, safe with low variance. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
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Terranasaur
United States2085 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23404 Posts
On March 03 2012 06:23 iCanada wrote: Just cuz you playing a farmy jungler doesn't mean you can't be in an opponents head. You can exert map pressure without flat out ganking them. For example, say you going from wraiths to wolves, instead of running between your towers say you go through mid lane and throw a spell/combo at the enemy mid. What you lose as the jungler? Like 5 seconds of your time, thats it... Who knows maybe you get lucky and get a kill, if not enemy mid like "Damn, that Shy could have chunked me... I shouldn't push so hard." lol, not likely, revealing position removes all pressure from both other lanes and mid i guarantee you is probably a cass who was hoping you'd try to dive so she could double kill. Anyway, when it comes to helping lanes against farming, it's all up to style but, in terms of priority, a free kill is a free kill, it's just you need to evalulate the chances of a sucessful gank. If your gank is intended to make the laners life easier then it's not necessarily a good decision, athough it may be. If your gank has a high chance of kill and the rest is just going to almost kill them anyway then it's always going to be a good gank. I mean, if they aren't feeling pressured, you just kill them because they don't play safe enough, if they are, you didn't need to camp a brush at all. | ||
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mr_tolkien
France8631 Posts
Alistar is a pretty good jungler to learn that. Godlike ganks and godlike clears, while being able to build either to carry your team (triforce, youmuu) or to support it (fast Shurelya and aegis). | ||
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
On March 03 2012 06:46 Requizen wrote: Would you consider Naut a ganky or farmy jungle then? More ganky just because his ability to counter jungle is pretty bad, but he is a lot more farmy than many other good gankers. | ||
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Hidden_MotiveS
Canada2562 Posts
On March 03 2012 04:16 Requizen wrote: So, jungling. When a lane is warded well (as in, can't get around from any direction), is there any point in camping that lane or even going there? Unless they're super extended and under my turret, the chances of getting anything done seem slim, but I feel bad just leaving my teammates to their fate down there. Do I ignore it, or maybe grab an Oracle's to clear it out or something? I just gank where I can get kills... I've used pink wards before to clear wards... but people just back off when you do.. no kills D: I think oracles is really strong and that it's hard to die as a jungler as long as you have good sustain (100% from your jungle at all times, good fight picking). About the only way to die is when the enemy counterganks you because your gank is essentially a 2v1 unless an enemy jungler shows up right away (but when you're ganking when your enemy is pushed up, your enemy jungler isn't likely to be waiting at least at my elo). Basically the only chance of a jungler dying in the jungle is through stupidity or dragon fights. That said I still don't get oracles  I'm a more supporty jungler than a carry jungler though.. possibly why games are usually either stomps or losses and I don't carry the midgame tempo. As far as level 1 ganks go, watch this zoning video by icsulla. I try to have 3 common starting locations as twitch: red, enemy blue, and my red (depending on enemy jungler) but whenever I go top to do a level 1 stealth gank... people yell at me D: edit: nvm who cares about video :p A successful level 1 gank is either a forced back with no TP or a kill. I feel there is no way to come back from a level 1 gank without your jungler helping against a competent opponent. | ||
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mr_tolkien
France8631 Posts
On March 03 2012 01:41 Hidden_MotiveS wrote: I've successfully killed dragon at level 7 a few times without my enemies knowing. lvl7 ? You can solo it lvl5 very easily if you still have your blue buff (minigols route). Nobody expects a 5min solo drake :p Nashor is way harder because he can cc you and stop your drain. EDIT : oops forgot to F5 the page when coming back home after using my mobile browser, my bad. | ||
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Craton
United States17303 Posts
On March 03 2012 06:23 iCanada wrote: Just cuz you playing a farmy jungler doesn't mean you can't be in an opponents head. You can exert map pressure without flat out ganking them. For example, say you going from wraiths to wolves, instead of running between your towers say you go through mid lane and throw a spell/combo at the enemy mid. What you lose as the jungler? Like 5 seconds of your time, thats it... Who knows maybe you get lucky and get a kill, if not enemy mid like "Damn, that Shy could have chunked me... I shouldn't push so hard." What you lose is a LOT more than 5 seconds. You reveal your position to the enemy team which lets other lanes be fully aggressive without worrying about a gank. You let the enemy jungler know where you've been and where you're headed for which lets them counterjungle you either head-on or by stealing other camps. If I know you're heading top I might just go take a free dragon or follow you and get a free double kill in a counter-gank. If I know you're in the top jungle I might go steal your bottom half or vice versa. Good junglers know when your buffs are spawning and know how long they have to steal them. Knowing where the jungler is provides a TREMENDOUS advantage to the other team. | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On March 03 2012 07:32 Craton wrote: What you lose is a LOT more than 5 seconds. You reveal your position to the enemy team which lets other lanes be fully aggressive without worrying about a gank. You let the enemy jungler know where you've been and where you're headed for which lets them counterjungle you either head-on or by stealing other camps. If I know you're heading top I might just go take a free dragon or follow you and get a free double kill in a counter-gank. If I know you're in the top jungle I might go steal your bottom half or vice versa. Good junglers know when your buffs are spawning and know how long they have to steal them. Knowing where the jungler is provides a TREMENDOUS advantage to the other team. If you have a good sup[port you are going to be revealed in about 20 second anyway with CV... you start red you gonna do blue at around 3:30, and you start blue it the other way around. They know where you start anyways, so they gonna CV the opposite buff and you either there or not... either way they know exactly where you are strictly based on where you are not. You either gonna be at the buff, or you gonna be ganking, or you just revealed as bad because you slow... Either way you don't have some mysterious "he could be anywhere!" advantage on your opponent. It really isn't hard to track a jungler, and if it is it probably means your support being incompetent. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On March 03 2012 05:33 arnath wrote: You can't really practice jungle in empty custom games because jungling without a pull is unrealistic at best and flat out impossible at worst. I personally avoid junglers who are weak/impossible without a leash. There are three very good reasons for this:
While you won't run into these situations most games, being prepared for them will can turn that one game out of ten or twenty into a win. On March 03 2012 06:14 Two_DoWn wrote: Ive actually found I'm in the vast minority when it comes to this. I find the SV mentality to be a stronger overall style because it has fewer weaknesses. Its REALLY hard to screw over a jungle and mid in a game. On the other hand, playing to support mid like TOO does just makes it so that if the mid screws up its gg, and even if he DOESNT screw up he still needs to carry an extra character worth of dead wieght. I think Salce puts it best: SV is just straight up STRONGER, but TOO makes everyones (but the jungle's life easier) so people like it when jungles play that way, even if the overal style is weaker and far more limiting in terms of teamcomps. I don't think SV style has fewer weaknesses, both styles are just different. The biggest strength of SV style is that it's a much easier jungle style for someone who's learning. Constantly farming and only ganking when a lane is pushed to your tower is very easy to understand and execute. | ||
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Bladeorade
United States1898 Posts
in what order i mean User was warned for this post | ||
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Craton
United States17303 Posts
On March 03 2012 07:49 iCanada wrote: If you have a good sup[port you are going to be revealed in about 20 second anyway with CV... you start red you gonna do blue at around 3:30, and you start blue it the other way around. They know where you start anyways, so they gonna CV the opposite buff and you either there or not... either way they know exactly where you are strictly based on where you are not. You either gonna be at the buff, or you gonna be ganking, or you just revealed as bad because you slow... Either way you don't have some mysterious "he could be anywhere!" advantage on your opponent. It really isn't hard to track a jungler, and if it is it probably means your support being incompetent. Uh, nobody takes CV anymore in solo queue because it's largely useless. The only time it gets picked up is in tournaments/scrims and even then only half the time. Just because they can find you once if you take the most predictable route does not somehow make it easy to always know the jungler's position. You get one shot every minute to guess which side of the map they're on and whether they wanted to farm or gank. Regardless of whether or not a support is good enough to guess well (which is rare in and of itself) the fact that revealing your position gives away a LOT more than a few seconds of your time does not change. | ||
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Doctorbeat
Netherlands13241 Posts
On March 03 2012 07:58 Bladeorade wrote: what skills do you level TF mid? in what order i mean afaik W>Q>Q>E and then a priority of R>Q>W>E | ||
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Hidden_MotiveS
Canada2562 Posts
On March 03 2012 07:49 iCanada wrote: If you have a good sup[port you are going to be revealed in about 20 second anyway with CV... you start red you gonna do blue at around 3:30, and you start blue it the other way around. They know where you start anyways, so they gonna CV the opposite buff and you either there or not... either way they know exactly where you are strictly based on where you are not. You either gonna be at the buff, or you gonna be ganking, or you just revealed as bad because you slow... Either way you don't have some mysterious "he could be anywhere!" advantage on your opponent. It really isn't hard to track a jungler, and if it is it probably means your support being incompetent. *Pulls out notebook* Yes of course, but for those newbs that don't know these timings do you mind listing the timings to cv the jungler? | ||
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