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Same rules apply, per usual. Please use the appropriate threads (QQ, Brag, Champion, etc) whenever appropriate. Keep the resident Banling content.
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I feel really stupid asking this, but I seem too stupid to figure out on my own.
How does one jungle?
I used to do fine as a jungler, then I stopped jungling for a month or two, and now I just... can't remember.
I always fall behind in levels after ~level 3 or 4; last game our mid reached level 17 while I was at 12 (ugh!). The enemy jungler is always at least one level ahead of me.
I try to compensate by concentrating more on farming the jungle, but maybe that's my problem (it certainly doesn't help our lanes).
Is camping lanes actually more effective in terms of gaining XP?
Should I be clearing the jungle and then camping the lanes until at least two of the small camps respawned, instead of constantly running to whatever camp respawns next?
Edit: I just picked up Udyr a few days ago to try jungling again, but AFAICT his clear speed is certainly not the problem here. (In the past, I usually jungled (pre-nerf) Lee and Nocturne.)
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On March 03 2012 04:50 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 04:32 Two_DoWn wrote:On March 03 2012 04:27 Shikyo wrote:On March 03 2012 04:16 Requizen wrote:
So, jungling. When a lane is warded well (as in, can't get around from any direction), is there any point in camping that lane or even going there? Unless they're super extended and under my turret, the chances of getting anything done seem slim, but I feel bad just leaving my teammates to their fate down there.
Do I ignore it, or maybe grab an Oracle's to clear it out or something? dont even need oracles, pink wards are only 50 gold more than green ones and they clear enemy wards AND afterwards act as wards of your own. I don't get why junglers don't buy these more. It's not like that lane can come prevent you from clearing it either if your laner isn't afk. Because there ALREADY isnt enough gold in the jungle. A ward is 3 creeps. A pink ward is 5. You want to make sure I can gank your lane? YOU buy the pink ward. I mean, I already have to map out the most efficeint way to clear my jungle, plan my backs, and measure out my ganks, all the while being cognizant of where I need to be on the map to take care of global objectives. The reason TOO has been pathetic recently is because he STILL hasnt adapted to the demands of the new jungle. As a result, he ends up being useless for the majority of the game. Buying a bunch of pink wards only makes that problem worse. Wards give 25 gold so pink is 100g and green 75g while giving similiar vision in the area for your team while denying enemy vision. IMO you don't even need to gank for that being profitable, you gain it back if the enemy team misses 2 minion kills because they are afraid because of having no vision. It's a team game not 1v5.
The problem is that buying a pinkward means that it forces enemy to buy pink wards as well. Which makes the game more oriented at buying a lot of pink wards. If you want to sink your money into pink wards and enemy support buys pink wards then well... Support losing is hurt less by losing money than a jungler
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@bmn
It's all very situational, especially in the jungle. There are general rules of thumb you could use but I found the best way was to watch some pros stream jungle and just pick up on some of those tendencies. Best streamers are the ones who explain their choices (TOO, Snoopeh) imoimo.
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On March 03 2012 05:04 bmn wrote:
I feel really stupid asking this, but I seem too stupid to figure out on my own.
How does one jungle?
I used to do fine as a jungler, then I stopped jungling for a month or two, and now I just... can't remember.
I always fall behind in levels after ~level 3 or 4; last game our mid reached level 17 while I was at 12 (ugh!). The enemy jungler is always at least one level ahead of me.
I try to compensate by concentrating more on farming the jungle, but maybe that's my problem (it certainly doesn't help our lanes).
Is camping lanes actually more effective in terms of gaining XP?
Should I be clearing the jungle and then camping the lanes until at least two of the small camps respawned, instead of constantly running to whatever camp respawns next?
Edit: I just picked up Udyr a few days ago to try jungling again, but AFAICT his clear speed is certainly not the problem here. (In the past, I usually jungled (pre-nerf) Lee and Nocturne.)
Practice NEVER ganking. Just farm. Focus on maximizing your own farm, pathing out your clears when you back so you hit all 3 camps constantly.
Then slowly reintroduce ganking, focusing only on attempts that will result in kills and backs. But mainly focus on farming. Pretty soon you will realize that lanes really DONT need your help (and if they do, chances are even you helping isnt going to result in them doing anything but piss away their lead). Just farm and only throw out ganks when you know it will be worth it.
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On March 03 2012 04:52 sob3k wrote:
The lane should really be buying a pink if they feel they really need a gank
Usually, yes, but if a lane is really getting their ass handed to them they probably can't to go for a vision ward contest, not to mention it'll be hard to find space to recall + put down the ward without being punished for it.
Unfortunately, these situations do happen, and as a jungler the longer you let it run its course the less your chance of winning, even if it's not really your fault you gotta do some damage control on it.
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Holy shit, there is a guy named Kerp playing jungle Trundle and getting shit on by Dyrus's team on stream.
Shikyo has been telling the truth all this time!!!
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On March 03 2012 05:04 bmn wrote:
I feel really stupid asking this, but I seem too stupid to figure out on my own.
How does one jungle?
I used to do fine as a jungler, then I stopped jungling for a month or two, and now I just... can't remember.
I always fall behind in levels after ~level 3 or 4; last game our mid reached level 17 while I was at 12 (ugh!). The enemy jungler is always at least one level ahead of me.
I try to compensate by concentrating more on farming the jungle, but maybe that's my problem (it certainly doesn't help our lanes).
Is camping lanes actually more effective in terms of gaining XP?
Should I be clearing the jungle and then camping the lanes until at least two of the small camps respawned, instead of constantly running to whatever camp respawns next?
Edit: I just picked up Udyr a few days ago to try jungling again, but AFAICT his clear speed is certainly not the problem here. (In the past, I usually jungled (pre-nerf) Lee and Nocturne.)
I guess here's the general rule of thumb, do 1st clear (excluding double golem), then do half clear (wolves wraiths) right away Then look for a lane to gank. If no lane has a favorable lane, you can either A) counterjungle, or B)camp a lane. I generally prefer lane camping, because counterjungling requires trust in your midlane to follow.
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On March 03 2012 05:10 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 05:04 bmn wrote:
I feel really stupid asking this, but I seem too stupid to figure out on my own.
How does one jungle?
I used to do fine as a jungler, then I stopped jungling for a month or two, and now I just... can't remember.
I always fall behind in levels after ~level 3 or 4; last game our mid reached level 17 while I was at 12 (ugh!). The enemy jungler is always at least one level ahead of me.
I try to compensate by concentrating more on farming the jungle, but maybe that's my problem (it certainly doesn't help our lanes).
Is camping lanes actually more effective in terms of gaining XP?
Should I be clearing the jungle and then camping the lanes until at least two of the small camps respawned, instead of constantly running to whatever camp respawns next?
Edit: I just picked up Udyr a few days ago to try jungling again, but AFAICT his clear speed is certainly not the problem here. (In the past, I usually jungled (pre-nerf) Lee and Nocturne.) Practice NEVER ganking. Just farm. Focus on maximizing your own farm, pathing out your clears when you back so you hit all 3 camps constantly. Then slowly reintroduce ganking, focusing only on attempts that will result in kills and backs. But mainly focus on farming. Pretty soon you will realize that lanes really DONT need your help (and if they do, chances are even you helping isnt going to result in them doing anything but piss away their lead). Just farm and only throw out ganks when you know it will be worth it.
That makes 0 sense. I get that its ok to devalue ganks, that's fine, but to say that ganks don't even help lanes or that ganks should be made on the sole benefit of the jungler is just stupid and totally self-centered way of playing. It's something that may end up being ok if you are clearly better than all of the other players, but not a playstyle conducive to actually competitive matches. You're basically saying that it's ok for a solo lane to get completely shit on as long as the jungler isn't disturbed by such silly things as ganking.
edit: a great example of this are matchups where all i need is for the opponent to burn flash and lose some HP for me to take the advantage and either stay even or win in a matchup where i'd usually be on the back foot. Those situations have 0 direct gold value for the jungler, so by your logic you shouldn't do them, which is nonsense.
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Learning through deprivation?
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Well you can do the practice jungle farming part in a custom game. Small things like finishing a camp 1 autoattack earlier does matter but umm, shouldn't take that long to learn really.
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You can't really practice jungle in empty custom games because jungling without a pull is unrealistic at best and flat out impossible at worst.
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On March 03 2012 05:33 arnath wrote:
You can't really practice jungle in empty custom games because jungling without a pull is unrealistic at best and flat out impossible at worst.
Not really ,_, It's not that hard anymore depending on which champion you use, and since you have zero chance of being ganked it doesn't matter how low you get. If you want you can grab a friend to pull for you that's good too.
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On March 03 2012 05:10 Juicyfruit wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 04:52 sob3k wrote:
The lane should really be buying a pink if they feel they really need a gank Usually, yes, but if a lane is really getting their ass handed to them they probably can't to go for a vision ward contest, not to mention it'll be hard to find space to recall + put down the ward without being punished for it. Unfortunately, these situations do happen, and as a jungler the longer you let it run its course the less your chance of winning, even if it's not really your fault you gotta do some damage control on it.
Dissagree. Best to throw that lane away and focus on farming and ensuring the other lanes will win.
@ Bear- His concern was that he was having trouble keeping up in CS and level in the jungle. Best way to fix that is to just focus on farming. Same as if someone was having trouble csing in mid because they were harassing too much, best way to fix that is spend a few games focusing soley on cs. Im not telling him to never gank for the rest of his time as a jungle, just that if he wants to fix his problem, a good way to practice is to focus just on farming and getting his levels, then seeing where ganking fits into that.
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On March 03 2012 05:21 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 05:10 Two_DoWn wrote:On March 03 2012 05:04 bmn wrote:
I feel really stupid asking this, but I seem too stupid to figure out on my own.
How does one jungle?
I used to do fine as a jungler, then I stopped jungling for a month or two, and now I just... can't remember.
I always fall behind in levels after ~level 3 or 4; last game our mid reached level 17 while I was at 12 (ugh!). The enemy jungler is always at least one level ahead of me.
I try to compensate by concentrating more on farming the jungle, but maybe that's my problem (it certainly doesn't help our lanes).
Is camping lanes actually more effective in terms of gaining XP?
Should I be clearing the jungle and then camping the lanes until at least two of the small camps respawned, instead of constantly running to whatever camp respawns next?
Edit: I just picked up Udyr a few days ago to try jungling again, but AFAICT his clear speed is certainly not the problem here. (In the past, I usually jungled (pre-nerf) Lee and Nocturne.) Practice NEVER ganking. Just farm. Focus on maximizing your own farm, pathing out your clears when you back so you hit all 3 camps constantly. Then slowly reintroduce ganking, focusing only on attempts that will result in kills and backs. But mainly focus on farming. Pretty soon you will realize that lanes really DONT need your help (and if they do, chances are even you helping isnt going to result in them doing anything but piss away their lead). Just farm and only throw out ganks when you know it will be worth it. That makes 0 sense. I get that its ok to devalue ganks, that's fine, but to say that ganks don't even help lanes or that ganks should be made on the sole benefit of the jungler is just stupid and totally self-centered way of playing. It's something that may end up being ok if you are clearly better than all of the other players, but not a playstyle conducive to actually competitive matches. You're basically saying that it's ok for a solo lane to get completely shit on as long as the jungler isn't disturbed by such silly things as ganking. edit: a great example of this are matchups where all i need is for the opponent to burn flash and lose some HP for me to take the advantage and either stay even or win in a matchup where i'd usually be on the back foot. Those situations have 0 direct gold value for the jungler, so by your logic you shouldn't do them, which is nonsense.
He's not saying never gank. He is saying that bmn should get used to farming the jungles before he goes balls deep into gank mode.
I usually play 2-3 custom games just mapping out the most effective route to farm the jungle. Depending on your champ/route there are windows of 20-30 seconds where nothing is going on in your jungle, these are the most efficient times to gank lanes.
I'd reccomend starting Wolves->Blue(Smite)->Wraiths->Wolves->Golems->Red(Smite) on most junglers just because it is a very effective route in terms of farm/time, and also fairly easy to remember. To top that off, it also gives you a nice little window to gank right after you get red where all your camps teh dead, and hell... you got red.
Depending on your Champ, it might be beneficial to go back after Golems to heal up/buy so you can gank with boots and higher health and maximize your uptime with red.
Other than that, two real popular jungling styles... the SV-fuck-your-team-and-farm style, and the TOO-go-make-sure-your-lanes-win style. Pretty simple, Saintvicious goes out of his way to ensure he outfarms the other jungler and he can just straight out carry the game. TheOddOne on the other hand prioritizes ensuring his lanes grab advantages early on so that they win every lane. Which style is better is really up to you, you can have great success using both methods.
I personally like SV's style much better, just farming farming farming, and then utilizing high success ratio ganks. Ensures you don't waste your time. To quote SV "Fuck your top lane, fuck your mid lane, and fuck bot lane too. Get farmed, win the game."
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On March 03 2012 05:10 WaveofShadow wrote:
Holy shit, there is a guy named Kerp playing jungle Trundle and getting shit on by Dyrus's team on stream.
Shikyo has been telling the truth all this time!!!
I don't get why he's only playing champions he can't play, he's been getting shit on in all the games I've watched on Dyrus's stream.
Btw he mains solotop
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On March 03 2012 05:39 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 05:10 Juicyfruit wrote:On March 03 2012 04:52 sob3k wrote:
The lane should really be buying a pink if they feel they really need a gank Usually, yes, but if a lane is really getting their ass handed to them they probably can't to go for a vision ward contest, not to mention it'll be hard to find space to recall + put down the ward without being punished for it. Unfortunately, these situations do happen, and as a jungler the longer you let it run its course the less your chance of winning, even if it's not really your fault you gotta do some damage control on it. Dissagree. Best to throw that lane away and focus on farming and ensuring the other lanes will win. .
Eh, it's possible to help a losing lane and not really give up farming though. Camping a losing lane or spending ward money for them is out of the question but showing up periodically to threaten the lane does help reduce the CS advantage over time.
So long as your laners aren't retarded and overcommit to a gank instead of taking advantage of your presence to edge up a couple of cs on them.
As someone who frequently loses his lane  , I can tell that a difference of 30 cs is disproportionally harder to recover from, compared to a difference of say...20 cs.
Not to be confused with lanes that are 0-4 and beyond hopeless.
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On March 03 2012 05:44 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 05:10 WaveofShadow wrote:
Holy shit, there is a guy named Kerp playing jungle Trundle and getting shit on by Dyrus's team on stream.
Shikyo has been telling the truth all this time!!! I don't get why he's only playing champions he can't play, he's been getting shit on in all the games I've watched on Dyrus's stream. Btw he mains solotop
What is his favourite food and favourite colour?
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On March 03 2012 05:52 Juicyfruit wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 05:39 Two_DoWn wrote:On March 03 2012 05:10 Juicyfruit wrote:On March 03 2012 04:52 sob3k wrote:
The lane should really be buying a pink if they feel they really need a gank Usually, yes, but if a lane is really getting their ass handed to them they probably can't to go for a vision ward contest, not to mention it'll be hard to find space to recall + put down the ward without being punished for it. Unfortunately, these situations do happen, and as a jungler the longer you let it run its course the less your chance of winning, even if it's not really your fault you gotta do some damage control on it. Dissagree. Best to throw that lane away and focus on farming and ensuring the other lanes will win. . Eh, it's possible to help a losing lane and not really give up farming though. Camping a losing lane or spending ward money for them is out of the question but showing up periodically to threaten the lane does help reduce the CS advantage over time. So long as your laners aren't retarded and overcommit to a gank instead of taking advantage of your presence to edge up a couple of cs on them. As someone who frequently loses his lane , I can tell that a difference of 30 cs is disproportionally harder to recover from, compared to a difference of say...20 cs. Not to be confused with lanes that are 0-4 and beyond hopeless.
Assuming the Jungler isn't a douche and just takes all your farm while he there anyway. "Gank tax yo. I help you out, you help me out."
"Well, sorry brohan but you didn't really gank... last I check taking farm from a behind laner not really help him much at all."
zzzz
That actually happened to me one day. And I am a proud practioner of ganks tax, but... to ganks tax without actually doing teh keelings/chunkings is just bad.
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On March 03 2012 05:40 iCanada wrote:
Other than that, two real popular jungling styles... the SV-fuck-your-team-and-farm style, and the TOO-go-make-sure-your-lanes-win style. Pretty simple, Saintvicious goes out of his way to ensure he outfarms the other jungler and he can just straight out carry the game. TheOddOne on the other hand prioritizes ensuring his lanes grab advantages early on so that they win every lane. Which style is better is really up to you, you can have great success using both methods.
I personally like SV's style much better, just farming farming farming, and then utilizing high success ratio ganks. Ensures you don't waste your time. To quote SV "Fuck your top lane, fuck your mid lane, and fuck bot lane too. Get farmed, win the game."
Ive actually found I'm in the vast minority when it comes to this. I find the SV mentality to be a stronger overall style because it has fewer weaknesses. Its REALLY hard to screw over a jungle and mid in a game. On the other hand, playing to support mid like TOO does just makes it so that if the mid screws up its gg, and even if he DOESNT screw up he still needs to carry an extra character worth of dead wieght.
I think Salce puts it best: SV is just straight up STRONGER, but TOO makes everyones (but the jungle's life easier) so people like it when jungles play that way, even if the overal style is weaker and far more limiting in terms of teamcomps.
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EPT
