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Same rules apply, per usual. Please use the appropriate threads (QQ, Brag, Champion, etc) whenever appropriate. Keep the resident Banling content.
Thanks. Happy Gaming. |
On March 17 2012 20:27 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 20:21 Slayer91 wrote:On March 17 2012 19:46 Shikyo wrote:On March 17 2012 16:56 overt wrote:
Seriously, someone from Riot who actually tests champs and stuff comes in to share his opinion and people basically talk down to him. You guys might be right and he might be wrong but you're coming across kind of...dickish?
Like you don't have to accuse him of trolling or make snide remarks as your opening line to make your point. Disagree with him respectfully and you might not only change his opinion but he might encourage more Rioters/testers to discuss things with us. Just my two cents. Sharing his opinion - of course I wouldn't mind that Going the super exaggeration route - I really don't appreaciate that, feels like a coverup act. (Currently I'd build Jax with Warmog Atmas Gunblade Wits End and he deals zero damage, now he'll deal even less so I don't think that build would be possible. Gunblade Guinsoos could be the way to go, might even work out decently, though I'm still pretty sure that with that build he'd get exploded in teamfights even with that ulti. I'll admit the ulti might be fine, might work out better than the last one simply because of how cost-effective Guinsoos Rageblade is, but saying it makes Jax feel like how he used to etc. is still just ridiculous) What are you talking about, the only consistent jax player I know is scip and he does really well with jax and when I played him jax does insane damage. With GRB, surge, and ulti you have over 200 AP it's insane. I think he goes wriggles-->GRB-->warmogs atmas. Gunblade is a terrible item and the fact that you get atmogs as well makes it not surprising you don't do that much damage. Like jax R without activating it is as good as udyr pheonix stasnce and he has a 5 second gap closer and tons of damage from his Q and W and E. Also scip thinks the jax remake was a BUFF. Since the gunblade nerf, at least. Phoenix Stance is AoE. And he does well at... 1200 elo? I've only played with him like 2 games and it really seemed underwhelming, maybe you had better games playing with him.
You speak in absolutes about his damage when you're doing a bad build and only played him twice? The fact that pheonix is aoe is pretty much worthless in actual teamfights. The reason it's good is because it's essentially a massive AD steriod.
Also going on a statement that he only does well in 1200 elo when you're barely higher than that yourself seems pretty silly, no offense. I haven't played him in ranked but basically champion power is generally pretty even if you want to say stuff like a champion does 0 damage when the numbers all say the opposite then the burden of proof is upon you. The main problem jax has in teamfights is a lot of people jump in rambo ahead of their team and suddenly his damage isn't useful and his lack of tankiness becomes apparent.
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I also just had another thought on the whole sustain nerf. If they really nerf wriggles, vamp and Irelia at the same time without touching Yoricks e, he will be an even bigger problem then before. His sustain will be untouched while all the popular top lane bruisers got sustain nerfed.
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Nasus, Udyr, even Xin still have great sustain. All of them do well against yorick.
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On March 17 2012 20:30 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 20:27 Shikyo wrote:On March 17 2012 20:21 Slayer91 wrote:On March 17 2012 19:46 Shikyo wrote:On March 17 2012 16:56 overt wrote:
Seriously, someone from Riot who actually tests champs and stuff comes in to share his opinion and people basically talk down to him. You guys might be right and he might be wrong but you're coming across kind of...dickish?
Like you don't have to accuse him of trolling or make snide remarks as your opening line to make your point. Disagree with him respectfully and you might not only change his opinion but he might encourage more Rioters/testers to discuss things with us. Just my two cents. Sharing his opinion - of course I wouldn't mind that Going the super exaggeration route - I really don't appreaciate that, feels like a coverup act. (Currently I'd build Jax with Warmog Atmas Gunblade Wits End and he deals zero damage, now he'll deal even less so I don't think that build would be possible. Gunblade Guinsoos could be the way to go, might even work out decently, though I'm still pretty sure that with that build he'd get exploded in teamfights even with that ulti. I'll admit the ulti might be fine, might work out better than the last one simply because of how cost-effective Guinsoos Rageblade is, but saying it makes Jax feel like how he used to etc. is still just ridiculous) What are you talking about, the only consistent jax player I know is scip and he does really well with jax and when I played him jax does insane damage. With GRB, surge, and ulti you have over 200 AP it's insane. I think he goes wriggles-->GRB-->warmogs atmas. Gunblade is a terrible item and the fact that you get atmogs as well makes it not surprising you don't do that much damage. Like jax R without activating it is as good as udyr pheonix stasnce and he has a 5 second gap closer and tons of damage from his Q and W and E. Also scip thinks the jax remake was a BUFF. Since the gunblade nerf, at least. Phoenix Stance is AoE. And he does well at... 1200 elo? I've only played with him like 2 games and it really seemed underwhelming, maybe you had better games playing with him. You speak in absolutes about his damage when you're doing a bad build and only played him twice? The fact that pheonix is aoe is pretty much worthless in actual teamfights. The reason it's good is because it's essentially a massive AD steriod. Also going on a statement that he only does well in 1200 elo when you're barely higher than that yourself seems pretty silly, no offense. I haven't played him in ranked but basically champion power is generally pretty even if you want to say stuff like a champion does 0 damage when the numbers all say the opposite then the burden of proof is upon you. The main problem jax has in teamfights is a lot of people jump in rambo ahead of their team and suddenly his damage isn't useful and his lack of tankiness becomes apparent.
What o_o I've played Jax like tens of times and I've tested numerous different builds, from full AP to full AD to hybrid to tank to tanky hybrid to tanky dps to tank with Rylais to tank with Triforce etc. It's Scipaeus who I've played twice with.
Phoenix AoE is one of its best uses and it doesn't compare to tiger in 1v1 however I won't argue too much about udyr with you.
Though again I agree that I probably was too offensive earlier about the Jax and I apologize, it's very possible that it's going to make Rageblade/Triforce a viable build to go for even though I'm afraid that it is not going to do enough. Jax also really needs a slow IMO so Frozen Mallet or Rylai would be quite necessary.
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You don't really need triforce just go wriggles/guinsoos warmogs atmas. I even went wriggles/guinsoos/warmogs/frozen heart because CDR is good on him and I didn't feel like I needed more damage at all. You have a pretty strong argument for red buff over AD carry anyways, if you want to get that when it's up.
I think the slow is overrated, you have a low cd gap closer with like more damage than tiger stance in terms of burst on your WQ and a stun. Most of the time you should be close enough to your team that in teamfights either your team CC's them or their team is trying to kill yours and you get to attack a lot. I mean slows are good if you're doing that rambo style I mentioned but I think it has no future in competitive play. In competitive hard engaging bruisers often get disengaged and the tanks from the other teams just jump to them away from your t eam and you t ake tons of free damage.
And yeah, the pheonix aoe is great for clearing waves and creeps, but generally in real teamfights the amount of damage the AoE puts out is usually neglible as it's either on tanks/their support or on nobody at all.
Also, pheonix is compareable to tiger in 1v1, the reason tiger is good is because it is burst damage which means you don't need to be constantly in range to be effective. (especially in lategame you often don't get to attack squishies for long periods of time.)
Like, if you're getting kited in teamfights, a lot of people assume they need a slow, while in reality getting kited is just a matter of an entire team retreating and doing free damage to you since they can use their CC on you while running away, and no amount of slow is going to help that, it's just a matter of getting your entire team in range so if they use spells on you they can kill everyone.
Also, trying lots of different builds doesn't qualify you in saying how good the champion is. There are 1000's of builds that will make a champion not viable and only a few that will. Not that building a slow on jax is necessarily bad, but it indicates a playing style that is inheritly flawed.
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United States47024 Posts
It bothers me how much they used the word "overpowered" in the patch preview.
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On March 17 2012 21:10 TheYango wrote:
It bothers me how much they used the word "overpowered" in the patch preview.
I'm still worried about that supposed level 2 jungle gank nerf that they are working on.
I just hope they don't nerf it to the point that junglers aren't even viable any more. Remember when the new jungle first came out? Junglers couldn't even make enough money in the jungle. D:
Also, I watched Dyrus stream the new Jax at one point and he basically said that Jax has a really strong early game and isn't as good late game. He was one of the best Jax players before the remake (and I believe he was the best Jax player in beta), but he doesn't play Jax much any more so take from that what you will.
Oh and since we mentioned Udyr, I wanted to ask Slayer if he's ever done a gank where the enemy champion has like 50 HP left, and uses some form of cloak to escape (like Akali), so you just turn on the Phoenix active and let the AOE kill them? I've done that several times and it is the most satisfying feeling in the world :D.
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I think that they started using "(slightly) overpowered/underpowered" all of a sudden is more of a marketing thing than anything else. People love to use those words so they get them. If it's in the best interest to enforce that behaviour is another topic.
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On March 17 2012 21:13 Kyo Yuy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 21:10 TheYango wrote:
It bothers me how much they used the word "overpowered" in the patch preview. I'm still worried about that supposed level 2 jungle gank nerf that they are working on. I just hope they don't nerf it to the point that junglers aren't even viable any more. Remember when the new jungle first came out? Junglers couldn't even make enough money in the jungle. D: Also, I watched Dyrus stream the new Jax at one point and he basically said that Jax has a really strong early game and isn't as good late game. He was one of the best Jax players before the remake (and I believe he was the best Jax player in beta), but he doesn't play Jax much any more so take from that what you will. Oh and since we mentioned Udyr, I wanted to ask Slayer if he's ever done a gank where the enemy champion has like 50 HP left, and uses some form of cloak to escape (like Akali), so you just turn on the Phoenix active and let the AOE kill them? I've done that several times and it is the most satisfying feeling in the world :D.
Probably, but akali can just run to 1 end of the shroud and she should survive, but since the damage is instant when you activate it I often get kills from pressing R.
Jax is definitely weaker lategame, old gunblade and old jax, that was a no brainer, but lategame isn't everything.
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On March 17 2012 20:33 Slayer91 wrote:
Nasus, Udyr, even Xin still have great sustain. All of them do well against yorick.
Didn't say that Yorick will be unbeatable, just meant that they are indirectly buffing something, that they claimed at some point to not like very much in the first place.
On March 17 2012 21:16 r.Evo wrote:
I think that they started using "(slightly) overpowered/underpowered" all of a sudden is more of a marketing thing than anything else. People love to use those words so they get them. If it's in the best interest to enforce that behaviour is another topic.
Encouraging people to qq is seldomly a good thing.
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why is jiji playing on loco's account on saint's computer? and jiji is chinese/taiwanese right?
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Well about the slow, I find that the long cooldown of the stun and the nerfed cooldown on Q makes it harder and harder to actually stay on targets to any extent. I think without a permanent slow you would need at the very least a gunblade or a trinity force.
His main issue is actually his laning, in my opinion. This accompanied with his weakened lategame post-remake is really troublesome in my opinion. Before he could win some lanes by activating R and bursting them during his stun, but now they just need to run away from the defensive bonuses(no one should have fought with jax with ulti activated before either). This is just going to make his laning even weaker and is going to remove that sudden burst of damage that used to be able to burst anyone from like 60% hp.
This accompanied with the Wriggles nerf really makes me wonder if Jax is even possible to lane with at all.
On March 17 2012 21:25 BlueSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 20:33 Slayer91 wrote:
Nasus, Udyr, even Xin still have great sustain. All of them do well against yorick. Didn't say that Yorick will be unbeatable, just meant that they are indirectly buffing something, that they claimed at some point to not like very much in the first place. Show nested quote +On March 17 2012 21:16 r.Evo wrote:
I think that they started using "(slightly) overpowered/underpowered" all of a sudden is more of a marketing thing than anything else. People love to use those words so they get them. If it's in the best interest to enforce that behaviour is another topic. Encouraging people to qq is seldomly a good thing.
I don't see how it does that? How does "Irelia is overpowered" differ from "Irelia is too strong"?
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Why is jax weak at laning? He trades similar enough to wukong but he does magic damage as well so it's harder to stack defenses. And he has a stun. His mana costs are fairly low just because you can burst someone from full to zero at level 6 doesn't mean you can't do anything before that.
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On March 17 2012 21:28 billy5000 wrote:
why is jiji playing on loco's account on saint's computer? and jiji is chinese/taiwanese right?
CLG is in koreaaa
They're playing on loco's account because they don't have their own :3 And saint is the only one with a computer set up with internetz capabilities
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On March 17 2012 21:34 Slayer91 wrote:
Why is jax weak at laning? He trades similar enough to wukong but he does magic damage as well so it's harder to stack defenses. And he has a stun. His mana costs are fairly low just because you can burst someone from full to zero at level 6 doesn't mean you can't do anything before that.
I don't know why he's so weak, his trading just doesn't seem like it's even close to Wukong's and he lacks an ulti. He seems to get outharrassed by everyone Wukong does fine against. I don't know, I've treated Jax as a freewin in lane and it's worked unless I've gotten careless when he has his passive stacked and I'm kind of low(No longer have those worries though)
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Anyone know if there are gonna be VoDs posted for the NaVi vs aAa games today in the HearToWin cup? I really want to show my friend game 2 of that series.
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I think next patch we'll see a shift of bruiser builds from atmog to fratma + new MR item. That grants health + MR + Armor and two extremely strong passive.
And it seems that the lifesteal nerf will only make Udyr and Lee Sin more viable because neither of them really need wriggles.
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I think what Riot is doing in the unofficial patch notes makes sense. The Stuff in the patch preview doesn't though. Nerfing sustain across the board to make damage stick is fine, but 12->10% lifesteal isn't the way to do it.
I'm interested in the new hexdrinker upgrade. Of course the first thing people will think about is getting it on Olaf so he can do more damage when almost dead.
I also like the bloodthirster change. 12+8 = 20%, but only 20 stacks can be lost? Almost seems like a buff.
In fact I think it is a buff for the concept of BT stacking. So next they'll probably start making lifesteal on BT unique, and then start nerfing it on other lifesteal items, and making them unique. Then they'll nerf sion.
On second thought people will have to complain a lot for lifesteal to get nerfed.
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I'm thinking about Poppy when I think about Hexdrinker. Shield that activates when low? Good stuff, Poppy passive stronk.
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Shame AD is pretty bad on her.
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EPT
