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Same rules apply, per usual. Please use the appropriate threads (QQ, Brag, Champion, etc) whenever appropriate. Keep the resident Banling content.
Thanks. Happy Gaming. |
Fratma sounds ugly, atmallet has much more fluent way of pronouning IMO!
On March 18 2012 01:24 ManyCookies wrote:
Have we discussed how Atmas is just absurdly gold efficient? Most champions have around 2k base health at 18, so it's about 40 AD for 825 gold with no health items. THEN it gives about 30% of the gold value of Health in AD.
Yep, it's been discussed to death :S I also really like Mogwai's (IIRC his) comparison of Atma to "mini-IEdge"
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United States47024 Posts
Honestly speaking, the problem with Tiamat is that it doesn't fill a niche that's needed in LoL. In DotA, most of the time you buy Battle Fury as a farming item on melee carries, getting AoE clearing power on heroes that don't have the ability to clear creeps quickly.
The thing is in LoL, everyone and their mom has an AoE farming skill. And of the heroes that don't, none of the ones that I can think of are heroes that would be willing to devote 2000 gold out of their core item development to get an item that's designed for them to spend the next 10-15 minutes farming.
There's also the fact that it (and Ionic Spark as well) doesn't even have enough splash range to hit both melee and ranged creeps at the same time. So even in it's ostensible utility for creep clearing/farming, it's somewhat awkward.
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On March 18 2012 00:47 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 00:34 ManyCookies wrote:
But I mean, the regen stats could be useful if it was a little earlier in the game. That should be the whole point of the item, a nice sustain item that also makes farming easier. A counterpart to Wriggles, if you will. It'd be awesome on Trundle or something. You don't want splash early in lane though (pushes the lane even if you don't want to, can make lasthitting harder, and you're only against a single champion so the splash is useless). It would be mostly for jungling, and directly compete with Wriggle's. There's no place for Tiamat as an early game item. An item that adds significant splash to your autoattacks for little money while providing few stats by itself could be interesting. Like if it had 100% splash damage (including crits), and you got it after you have a couple of damage items already it could be a meaningful investment. It would however have the issue that it could rapidly become OP for champs like Kog and Trist. At least this would be a real niche the item could fill. But seriously, just drop it from the game. Along with Leviathan.
Imo Tiamat is a relic from DotA roots. In DotA such an item makes sense because you usually can't afford to blow mana on farming and "AoE clearing" is something that most characters (YES I AVOIDED BOTH "CHAMPION" AND "HERO"!!11) suck at.
In League mana management for clearing a few waves is no big deal and most champions have some kind of AoE clearing ability anyway. Those who COULD like such an item are people like... erhm... Vayne. Poppy. Maybe Wukong.
In DotA the equivalent to Tiamat is basically a farming/laning item for melee carries (doesn't affect ranged attacks). While regen+moar farming is awesome in DotA for lategame carries in League it just has no real place. The equivalent for ranged heroes is an actually usefull version of Ionic Spark.
--->
a) Turn the regenstats on Tiamat into something usefull.
b) Think about making Tiamat trigger on melee attacks only and increase the radius/damage and/or make it do more damage to creeps.
c) Increase the Ionic Spark overall damage so it can compeat with Wits End and/or make it do more damage to creeps.
I'd be fine with Tiamat/Spark filling some kind of laning/farming tool. I just don't see a real purpose for having items with that goal in the game, unless your name is Poppy or Vayne.
In my perfect world with a perfect game Tiamat/Spark/Wriggles would all fullfill slightly different roles in the "I'm paying to get easier access to quick farm"-category of items.
Edit: I hate you Yango. Just because I doublechecked some stats. T_T
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On March 18 2012 01:43 TheYango wrote:
Honestly speaking, the problem with Tiamat is that it doesn't fill a niche that's needed in LoL. In DotA, most of the time you buy Battle Fury as a farming item on melee carries, getting AoE clearing power on heroes that don't have the ability to clear creeps quickly.
The thing is in LoL, everyone and their mom has an AoE farming skill. And of the heroes that don't, none of the ones that I can think of are heroes that would be willing to devote 2000 gold out of their core item development to get an item that's designed for them to spend the next 10-15 minutes farming.
There's also the fact that it (and Ionic Spark as well) doesn't even have enough splash range to hit both melee and ranged creeps at the same time. So even in it's ostensible utility for creep clearing/farming, it's somewhat awkward.
But but... Poppy!
I 100% agree with what you've said, which is why I think they need to either just remove it, or heavily adjust it. As it is now the damage isn't that great, the regen is meh or useless, and the splash is terribly small. If the regen were removed it could at least be a decent jungler item(splash is big enough to hit creep camps and then help push a lane after gank) and a niche melee carry grab. As it is now it's just bad for pretty much everyone(although I did legit get a penta on Fiora in 1 ult because a team was as clumped as possible chasing me through a jungle, but that's clearly just an absurd situation).
Edit: There's also the problem of buildup. Battlefury's buildup from perseverance is great for laning on the champions that get it(not as great as say, Vanguard, but that doesn't help you rice incredibly fast). Even if you don't remove the regen stats on Tiamat, they're just terrible. You're not going to start Bead+Faerie charm, especially since there are now so many champions(especially amongst melees) who are manaless. It's just a terrible buildup to a mediocre item.
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there needs to be a tiamat/ionic that costs like 1300g so that single target junglers can rush some aoe to compete with udyr/shyvana clear speeds, that is the niche aoe item passives can fill but currently they cost so much their window of usefulness is gone by the time you get them.
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On March 18 2012 01:59 chalice wrote:
there needs to be a tiamat/ionic that costs like 1300g so that single target junglers can rush some aoe to compete with udyr/shyvana clear speeds, that is the niche aoe item passives can fill but currently they cost so much their window of usefulness is gone by the time you get them.
Yeah that's kinda what I meant.
Something like:
Wriggles - Lifesteal, ward, armor, dmg.
Tiamat - regen + small, high damage AoE clearing.
Spark - random cool lane stat (no, health doesn't count) + big area, medium damage AoE clearing.
---> Wriggles for the lifesteal+ward
---> Tiamat for non-AoE junglers and/or laners.
---> Spark as a weaker version of Tiamat for clearing but stronger version for teamfighting.
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United States47024 Posts
TBH I think Spark could actually be fine if they just up the bounce range on the chain lightning to be enough that it can hit the ranged creeps when you attack the melee ones.
As a pure combat item, it's pretty clear that it doesn't match up to Wit's End. It's advantage is it's farming potential, but the fact that it can't bounce from melee to ranged creeps hurts it too much in that role.
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I assume Ionics bouncerange is intentionally short. Anyone remember how old sivir could completely zone you by bouncing off the melee champs?
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Ionic is bad as well just get sunfire to farm.
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Does anyone else wonder why does Riot give these random reasonings for patch changes? Like they say that they nerf lifesteal because they don't like the way people lifesteal on creeps to replenish health?
If it was true they'd make lifesteal work like irelia's ulti, lesser effect vs minions than vs champions...
Also when they had the "nerf heals spree" they kept talking how lifesteal and shields are good mechanics but heals are ugly, suddenly they discover a problem with lifesteal however.
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On March 18 2012 02:19 Kaniol wrote:
Does anyone else wonder why does Riot give these random reasonings for patch changes? Like they say that they nerf lifesteal because they don't like the way people lifesteal on creeps to replenish health?
If it was true they'd make lifesteal work like irelia's ulti, lesser effect vs minions than vs champions...
Also when they had the "nerf heals spree" they kept talking how lifesteal and shields are good mechanics but heals are ugly, suddenly they discover a problem with lifesteal however.
Lifesteal can be too strong even if it's a good mechanic. Having some lifesteal is good for the game, having too much makes for extremely passive lanes.
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On March 18 2012 02:27 zodde wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 02:19 Kaniol wrote:
Does anyone else wonder why does Riot give these random reasonings for patch changes? Like they say that they nerf lifesteal because they don't like the way people lifesteal on creeps to replenish health?
If it was true they'd make lifesteal work like irelia's ulti, lesser effect vs minions than vs champions...
Also when they had the "nerf heals spree" they kept talking how lifesteal and shields are good mechanics but heals are ugly, suddenly they discover a problem with lifesteal however. Lifesteal can be too strong even if it's a good mechanic. Having some lifesteal is good for the game, having too much makes for extremely passive lanes.
Lifesteal nerf is indirect Nasus buff? lololol
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Shen is going to be obnoxious solo top if they don't adjust him at all. Not that he isn't already...
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On March 18 2012 02:37 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 02:27 zodde wrote:On March 18 2012 02:19 Kaniol wrote:
Does anyone else wonder why does Riot give these random reasonings for patch changes? Like they say that they nerf lifesteal because they don't like the way people lifesteal on creeps to replenish health?
If it was true they'd make lifesteal work like irelia's ulti, lesser effect vs minions than vs champions...
Also when they had the "nerf heals spree" they kept talking how lifesteal and shields are good mechanics but heals are ugly, suddenly they discover a problem with lifesteal however. Lifesteal can be too strong even if it's a good mechanic. Having some lifesteal is good for the game, having too much makes for extremely passive lanes. Lifesteal nerf is indirect Nasus buff? lololol
Indirect buff to anyone who doesn't get lifesteal but has sustain. Nasus, Cho, Rumble, Kennen, WW, etc.
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On March 18 2012 02:41 zer0das wrote:
Shen is going to be obnoxious solo top if they don't adjust him at all. Not that he isn't already...
They are nerfing his Q damage by a little.
What I don't understand is why keep Shen's ult global when they nerfed all the others?
I feel like that would completely solve his problems imo; he'd actually have to come down a bit before porting to a dragon fight or something instead of pushing top all fucking game and being anywhere he wants.
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On March 18 2012 02:27 zodde wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 02:19 Kaniol wrote:
Does anyone else wonder why does Riot give these random reasonings for patch changes? Like they say that they nerf lifesteal because they don't like the way people lifesteal on creeps to replenish health?
If it was true they'd make lifesteal work like irelia's ulti, lesser effect vs minions than vs champions...
Also when they had the "nerf heals spree" they kept talking how lifesteal and shields are good mechanics but heals are ugly, suddenly they discover a problem with lifesteal however. Lifesteal can be too strong even if it's a good mechanic. Having some lifesteal is good for the game, having too much makes for extremely passive lanes.
Don't start with the passive play again, please. Junglers too strong - play too passive, junglers too weak - play too passive, creeps too strong - play too passive, creeps too weak - play too passive, kill rewards too high - play too passive, kill rewards too little - play too passive. Passive play is just silly term in LoL and should never be used.
Passive play can be caused by anything. I can also give u examples of why lifesteal CAN award aggressive playstyle - if i have LS and my lane opponent doesn't i can trade with him often because i will heal that damage without leaving the lane, he will have to leave the lane to do so.
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On March 18 2012 02:57 Kaniol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 02:27 zodde wrote:On March 18 2012 02:19 Kaniol wrote:
Does anyone else wonder why does Riot give these random reasonings for patch changes? Like they say that they nerf lifesteal because they don't like the way people lifesteal on creeps to replenish health?
If it was true they'd make lifesteal work like irelia's ulti, lesser effect vs minions than vs champions...
Also when they had the "nerf heals spree" they kept talking how lifesteal and shields are good mechanics but heals are ugly, suddenly they discover a problem with lifesteal however. Lifesteal can be too strong even if it's a good mechanic. Having some lifesteal is good for the game, having too much makes for extremely passive lanes. Don't start with the passive play again, please. Junglers too strong - play too passive, junglers too weak - play too passive, creeps too strong - play too passive, creeps too weak - play too passive, kill rewards too high - play too passive, kill rewards too little - play too passive. Passive play is just silly term in LoL and should never be used. Passive play can be caused by anything. I can also give u examples of why lifesteal CAN award aggressive playstyle - if i have LS and my lane opponent doesn't i can trade with him often because i will heal that damage without leaving the lane, he will have to leave the lane to do so.
Yeah sure, if you build lifesteal and he doesn't, you'd win. But doesn't that make lifesteal too strong?
Also, bot lanes get very boring when bot AD carries have wriggles but not enough damage to put a dent in the other carry's health pool. You get him down to 60% health and he just heals up on the next creep wave, where's the fun in that?
On March 18 2012 02:53 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 02:41 zer0das wrote:
Shen is going to be obnoxious solo top if they don't adjust him at all. Not that he isn't already... They are nerfing his Q damage by a little. What I don't understand is why keep Shen's ult global when they nerfed all the others? I feel like that would completely solve his problems imo; he'd actually have to come down a bit before porting to a dragon fight or something instead of pushing top all fucking game and being anywhere he wants.
I think they nerfed global ults because of the backdooring potential. It was too easy for TF or Panth to get to and open inhib, kill it and back before the other team could return to their base. Shen's ult can't be used to do that.
Having a global teleport is problematic though, because it's very hard to stop him from pushing bot when baron is up without losing baron when he ults back to his team. They should try to adress that problem without making shen too weak (he's kind of balanced around having a global ult right now, they'd need to compensate if he didn't have it.)
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On March 18 2012 03:00 zodde wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 02:57 Kaniol wrote:On March 18 2012 02:27 zodde wrote:On March 18 2012 02:19 Kaniol wrote:
Does anyone else wonder why does Riot give these random reasonings for patch changes? Like they say that they nerf lifesteal because they don't like the way people lifesteal on creeps to replenish health?
If it was true they'd make lifesteal work like irelia's ulti, lesser effect vs minions than vs champions...
Also when they had the "nerf heals spree" they kept talking how lifesteal and shields are good mechanics but heals are ugly, suddenly they discover a problem with lifesteal however. Lifesteal can be too strong even if it's a good mechanic. Having some lifesteal is good for the game, having too much makes for extremely passive lanes. Don't start with the passive play again, please. Junglers too strong - play too passive, junglers too weak - play too passive, creeps too strong - play too passive, creeps too weak - play too passive, kill rewards too high - play too passive, kill rewards too little - play too passive. Passive play is just silly term in LoL and should never be used. Passive play can be caused by anything. I can also give u examples of why lifesteal CAN award aggressive playstyle - if i have LS and my lane opponent doesn't i can trade with him often because i will heal that damage without leaving the lane, he will have to leave the lane to do so. Yeah sure, if you build lifesteal and he doesn't, you'd win. But doesn't that make lifesteal too strong? Also, bot lanes get very boring when bot AD carries have wriggles but not enough damage to put a dent in the other carry's health pool. You get him down to 60% health and he just heals up on the next creep wave, where's the fun in that?
Read my posts again... If the problem is healing off the creeps - nerf the LS' effect on creeps instead of nerfing LS items.
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They could just do something like Swain's Ult where it heals 50-75% on creeps (or non-neutral creeps).
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On March 18 2012 03:02 Kaniol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 03:00 zodde wrote:On March 18 2012 02:57 Kaniol wrote:On March 18 2012 02:27 zodde wrote:On March 18 2012 02:19 Kaniol wrote:
Does anyone else wonder why does Riot give these random reasonings for patch changes? Like they say that they nerf lifesteal because they don't like the way people lifesteal on creeps to replenish health?
If it was true they'd make lifesteal work like irelia's ulti, lesser effect vs minions than vs champions...
Also when they had the "nerf heals spree" they kept talking how lifesteal and shields are good mechanics but heals are ugly, suddenly they discover a problem with lifesteal however. Lifesteal can be too strong even if it's a good mechanic. Having some lifesteal is good for the game, having too much makes for extremely passive lanes. Don't start with the passive play again, please. Junglers too strong - play too passive, junglers too weak - play too passive, creeps too strong - play too passive, creeps too weak - play too passive, kill rewards too high - play too passive, kill rewards too little - play too passive. Passive play is just silly term in LoL and should never be used. Passive play can be caused by anything. I can also give u examples of why lifesteal CAN award aggressive playstyle - if i have LS and my lane opponent doesn't i can trade with him often because i will heal that damage without leaving the lane, he will have to leave the lane to do so. Yeah sure, if you build lifesteal and he doesn't, you'd win. But doesn't that make lifesteal too strong? Also, bot lanes get very boring when bot AD carries have wriggles but not enough damage to put a dent in the other carry's health pool. You get him down to 60% health and he just heals up on the next creep wave, where's the fun in that? Read my posts again... If the problem is healing off the creeps - nerf the LS' effect on creeps instead of nerfing LS items.
Yeah i guess, but I still think LS was too cheap of a stat. If one laner has LS and the other one doesn't, the one with lifesteal (wriggles, in most cases) would come out ahead of the trade. Maybe they should nerf LS against creeps as well, but I don't see a big problem with them nerfing the gold effiency of LS.
Edit: They also said they wanted to make damage stick more. And since they can't nerf LS vs jungle creeps without severely hurting jungling, healing up against wraiths/wolves/golems during a fight would still be an issue with your proposition.
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EPT
