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Same rules apply, per usual. Please use the appropriate threads (QQ, Brag, Champion, etc) whenever appropriate. Keep the resident Banling content.
Thanks. Happy Gaming. |
On March 14 2012 22:12 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 08:29 Two_DoWn wrote:
A good portion of teamfighting is character and role specific.
At its most basic, speaking in VAST generalizations-
Ad carry should be hitting whatever is closest (actually not a generalization, just a truth)
Jungle and Top lane should each be diving through toward the enemy carries. Which you it is a bit interesting- I tend to go in the order of: Gib burst caster (if combo is still up)>sustained caster/ad carry (priority at whoever hurts more)>burst caster with combo down.
Support wants to be with the ad either protecting or peeling, or just generally making it hard for the enemy team to do what they want to do.
Ap carry wants to either A) drop their burst on as many people as possible (if burst caster) or B) hit whoever is closest (sustained damage) (again, not really a generalization, pretty much the truth).
Obviously that will differ for some champions in each role, or if the game situation calls for something different, but that is generally the way you want to go about fighting. Ranged ADs should hit the highest priority (combination of threat, squishiness, oracles, and so on) target in range while staying away from the most dangerous enemies. If the enemy Alistar just used his combo and now is in your face doing nothing, but the enemy AP is in range, you hit the AP. While retreating if necessary of course. That's already more complex than what you suggested, yet ranged AD teamfighting is pretty much as simple as it gets... Sometimes the top and/or jungle should be focusing the same target as the ranged DPS (both physical/magic). Actually this happens quite often, especially if your ranged DPS is doing well and you rely on him a fair amount. If the top/jungle has fallen behind for some reason, diving often isn't a good idea either. Same if the enemy team is better at kiting the top/jungle than your team. See, it's not really possible to give good general guidelines. Which is why I'd suggest an example based approach. Analysing a situation and coming to a good solution is what you really need as a skill for LoL teamfighting. The ridiculously large number of possible 5v5 situations pretty much forces you to come up with a proper plan as the game is going on. Examples teach people how to do exactly that.
Which is why I said they were VAST generalizations. If you did that in the average game, you would be ok in a pretty large percentage of teamfights, even though there are situations that call for different strategies.
But each one hits at the core of what that role needs to do- AD needs to stay safe, Tanky dps needs to be whacking the highest priority target, and support needs to be interupting the enemy team and preventing them from what they want to do. Its the specifics of each of those that get a little iffy.
But of course you cant try to distill teamfighting into ironclad rules. Hence the disclaimers at the top and bottom. What I gave were just guidlines.
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On March 14 2012 22:14 Two_DoWn wrote:
Also I'm just curios by what Yango and others think the new gold standard for practice should be.
Personally, I feel as though the actual practice time and methods that the current teams use are fine- a lot of solo q and semifrequent scrims. The problem gets to be wether or not they are actually taking the entirety of that time seriously, or actually trying to see if new stuff works.
But Solo q offers something that (to my understanding) dota never had- the ability to just jump in a game where everyone is on the same level and not have to worry about trying to get a full 5 people to play games.
Not to mention that 90% of what you need in a tournament game of lol you can learn in solo q- builds, matchups, what to do when, ect. Solo q is the best way to learn new champions, for example. The only thing that scrims have the advantage in is that you get to practice team communication. But you cant exactly try new champions out for the first time in a scrim- you risk ruining valuable practice time for 9 other people. Solo q gives the foundation you need to build up to the point you can try running stuff in arranged 5s.
I have no problem with SoloQ being involved in a practice regimen somewhere, but it clearly shouldn't be a majority, or probably even a significant portion of your total practice time.
DotA did have what you described through various inhouse leagues that used trueskill or other ranking mechanisms.
As far as the gold standard of practice, it would involve scrimming to test things rather than scrimming as a mechanical reinforcement(although the closer to tournament time you get, the more you start to switch that around and use the scrims as measuring sticks and reinforcement of positive habits). There are some limitations to this, such as people being afraid of how public scrims are(even if you don't stream it, people can check match histories), and teams not having a way to inhouse the scrimming process(which is why I think CLG as an orginization is in a very advantageous position, the teams may compete come international tournament time, but they should be using eachother to improve otherwise).
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I feel like Solo Q definately has it's place for the reasons you mentioned, but what needs far more doing is planned team practice. I mean, you have to practice plays. Not just TSM style "ok guys we scrim at 8" and then they play standard every game and pick same champs they always do. Ever listened to the picks&bans on their scrims?
Picks&bans is pretty damn important and you need to practice that. And what you see on TSM streams (I use TSM as example a lot) during Big Ben phase? Regi might be in the kitchen or bathroom, oddone might shout something or there's like one person doing them. That just doesn't fly, I think M5 showed that in the finals good enough.
Teams need to like schedule their praccing, some days solo Q but then have something meaningful to practice when they go 5s and yea that meaningful can mean just play standard and work on general teamplay, but you also gotta have some practiced aces up your sleeve for tournament play or you gonna get rolled like Dignitas.
Nerves and morale as team is another matter entirely on top of that, you could see how M5 got under D's skin with the first finals match, followed by D being out of their zone and making absolutely retarded picks for 2nd game and M5 took full advantage of that, they didn't even need fancy tricks for the 2nd game, just brutally efficient standard play with a good comp just crumbled D. That was just a bad day for D and in my opinion showed lack of preparedness for the unexpected. Once it was seen and done, they couldn't just drop it off their minds and it played them out from the 2nd match as well.
That's just my take on the matter. I feel like if Korean scene gets going hard and brings the korean discipline to gaming, westerness are gonna have to step up their game and the pros will actually have to start acting professional about their game instead of it being a semi hobby / entertainer business (streams) for them.
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The single biggest benifit to the competitive scene that Riot could implement would be to rework bans into Dota style 3-pick-2-pick.
That WOULD make scrimming worthwhile because you have much more freedom over what you play against and much more ability to tailor your team to that.
But I actually think that solo q does have to be the bulk of a regimin simply because of how important knowledge is in lol. And the single best way to gain knowledge is to just spam games and experience a wide variety of characters and strategies.
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On March 14 2012 22:29 Two_DoWn wrote:
The single biggest benifit to the competitive scene that Riot could implement would be to rework bans into Dota style 3-pick-2-pick.
That WOULD make scrimming worthwhile because you have much more freedom over what you play against and much more ability to tailor your team to that.
But I actually think that solo q does have to be the bulk of a regimin simply because of how important knowledge is in lol. And the single best way to gain knowledge is to just spam games and experience a wide variety of characters and strategies.
There's more efficient ways of doing these things though. I think Dendi mentioned in a recent interview that when they cannot find scrim partners they setup lane matchups and brute force practice them, then randomly gank eachother to practice proper reactions and whatnot.
In soloQ are you really going to experience the broadest amount of matchup possibilities, or the same handful of matchups repeatedly(especially at higher elo)?
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That's very true, yet I feel it's been given too much weight by the pro teams currently. In the end, impeccable teamplay will overcome someone being down in a lane, M5 vs CLG hannover. Sure you can say CLG threw the games, well, ain't that kinda what bad teamplay means. M5 was very resistant to losing it outright and just kept narrowing the lead CLG had until they overcame it and eventually won.
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On March 14 2012 22:14 Two_DoWn wrote:
Also I'm just curios by what Yango and others think the new gold standard for practice should be.
Personally, I feel as though the actual practice time and methods that the current teams use are fine- a lot of solo q and semifrequent scrims. The problem gets to be wether or not they are actually taking the entirety of that time seriously, or actually trying to see if new stuff works.
But solo q offers something that (to my understanding) dota never had- the ability to just jump in a game where everyone is on the same level and not have to worry about trying to get a full 5 people to play games.
Not to mention that 90% of what you need in a tournament game of lol you can learn in solo q- builds, matchups, what to do when, ect. Solo q is the best way to learn new champions, for example. The only thing that scrims have the advantage in is that you get to practice team communication. But you cant exactly try new champions out for the first time in a scrim- you risk ruining valuable practice time for 9 other people. Solo q gives the foundation you need to build up to the point you can try running stuff in arranged 5s.
Meh, I think this topic is damn huge and it could easily warrant it's own guide.
For an (aspiring) pro solo q should be something very casual. Solo q should be what you do when you want to relax from practice. I think we can all agree that none of the top 10 teams or so have to work on their mechanics in general. Basically the only things solo q has going for a top tier player is the that he can test things solo when they're not researched properly (e.g. if someone would believe eve is viable solo top he could spam games with her and once he thinks he has "solved" it play the matchups against other pros, then start using it in scrims) and it is the perfect place to focus on plays that are NOT results oriented. It should be a place where you build psychological toughness against random things that might happen in a real game.
Some basics which would be my personal gold standard if you'd put me in a position where I could make coaching/managing decisions for teams:
-Boost numbers. You need at least A and B teams from the same general region, maybe even bench warmers. Ideal case you can have all of your teams start in the same competition, worst case (and at the moment not possible to realize) you let the teams fight internally for who is allowed to play and who is not. The latter is only possible with fixed salaries and strong sponsors.
-Schedules. Sleeping, eating or playing when people please is not acceptable. I'd make sure that people get up or work out at a similar time. Basically your standard Korean model for SCBW.
-Team building & communication. The abilities you need in specific players more than in others have to be pushed forward individually and streamlined. Mid/Jungle would be the only people making main calls, Support/Jungle would be responsible for timing stuff. Ideal case you get the people in those two roles to think and act as if they were the same person.
To achieve this, here is where I'd deviate from the Korean model and I believe (Yango yell at me if the Chinese already do that plz) the Chinese DotA model as well. My goal would be to force the players into their roles even in their free time. Working out solo? Fuck no way. I'd want people to play team sports or train boxing or martial arts together. Cooking/Cleaning/buying shit? No one does it solo, it would be always groups of 2+.
On top of that I would add psychological coachings to improve/resolve certain patterns as to how people treat each other. e.g. Yelling is an acceptable way of motivating someone or pushing someone to his limits, but it's not an acceptable way of communicating. Insults are a no-go. Arguments during a game are a no-go. Shut up, do whatever was called and then work on the replay until everyone is satisfied as to how a similar situation will be approached the next time it occurs.
The goal of a coach/manager in a team game like League or DotA should imo be to forge individually strong players into a tight-knit unit that is able to follow and trust each other blindly.
dno, if e-sports ever develops into a direction where stuff like this will matter, I'd be one of the first to try and grab such a spot. I consider this type of thing way harder than streamlining something similar in e.g. a company or coaching small groups in general, even though there's probably way less money to earn, lol.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 14 2012 22:14 Two_DoWn wrote:
But Solo q offers something that (to my understanding) dota never had- the ability to just jump in a game where everyone is on the same level and not have to worry about trying to get a full 5 people to play games.
DotA has had the equivalent of solo queue for a long time. Particularly insofar as 3rd party matchmaking clients emerged. Finding a game of DotA, while not a one-button-press endeavor is about as easy as finding a game on ICCup.
On March 14 2012 22:14 Two_DoWn wrote:
Not to mention that 90% of what you need in a tournament game of lol you can learn in solo q- builds, matchups, what to do when, ect.
In other words, solo queue is the best way to learn the fundamentals. That's all well and good except it's actually very poor for drilling SPECIFIC ASPECTS of the fundamentals. I'll use Evo's example of real sports again--any time that someone wants to drill a basic fundamental skill in a team-sport, they drill that specific aspect over and over. You spend an hour making the same shot over and over until you can do it in your sleep. You don't play like 4 pickup games and hope you get into scenarios where you get to practice what you wanted to practice. That's horribly inefficient.
If you want to learn a matchup, it's way more efficient to find someone you know is practiced on that champ and actually play the matchup, rather than playing through the whole game. Obviously it's not perfect practice, but in the span of time that you could play 1 game, you could have played through the first 5 minutes of that matchup 8-10 times. This is especially true since 8/10 of the lane opponents that these players are meeting in solo queue aren't even close to being as good as them to begin with. Outside factors notwithstanding, you could have the ins and outs of that matchup practiced down to what you're doing on each creep wave in the time it'd take you to play 3 games, of which 1 you stomped someone and didn't learn anything, and 2 you didn't even get the matchup you wanted. And it would be a straightforward step to adjust for the external factors once you move onto scrim play.
On March 14 2012 22:14 Two_DoWn wrote:
The only thing that scrims have the advantage in is that you get to practice team communication. But you cant exactly try new champions out for the first time in a scrim- you risk ruining valuable practice time for 9 other people. Solo q gives the foundation you need to build up to the point you can try running stuff in arranged 5s.
Scrims allow you to practice things in a controlled environment. I don't see how this is so hard for people to understand. If you're having trouble with a specific teamcomp or playstyle or lineup, the best way to combat that is to drill repeatedly against that specific lineup, until you have a thorough understanding of every aspect of its strengths and weaknesses. THAT'S the advantage of a scrim--that because you can actually communicate with the other team, you can actually exchange with them, and TELL them what you want to practice, so that you can practice that over and over again until you have a thorough understanding of how everything works.
This is exactly what people do in real sports, what people do in competitive BW, and what people do in competitive DotA. When Flash is scheduled to play against Jaedong, he doesn't randomly play 100 games against whoever. He finds a Zerg practice partner, they go over Jaedong's playstyle, try to imitate it, and then try to hone down on specific aspects of it through repeated analysis. You have access to all the variables so it allows you to approach your analysis in a methodical fashion. It allows you to efficiently collect meaningful data on the specifics of what you're playing and what you're playing against.
Competitive LoL teams lack this level of analysis in general, though. When's the last time you saw a pro LoL player so much as watch one of his own replays?
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On March 14 2012 22:14 Two_DoWn wrote:
Also I'm just curios by what Yango and others think the new gold standard for practice should be.
Personally, I feel as though the actual practice time and methods that the current teams use are fine- a lot of solo q and semifrequent scrims. The problem gets to be wether or not they are actually taking the entirety of that time seriously, or actually trying to see if new stuff works.
But Solo q offers something that (to my understanding) dota never had- the ability to just jump in a game where everyone is on the same level and not have to worry about trying to get a full 5 people to play games.
Not to mention that 90% of what you need in a tournament game of lol you can learn in solo q- builds, matchups, what to do when, ect. Solo q is the best way to learn new champions, for example. The only thing that scrims have the advantage in is that you get to practice team communication. But you cant exactly try new champions out for the first time in a scrim- you risk ruining valuable practice time for 9 other people. Solo q gives the foundation you need to build up to the point you can try running stuff in arranged 5s.
Yes you can get the basics of a champ down in solo queue and experiment with different runes/masteries etc. However I feel you're understating the importance of team practice a lot.
First off, synergy between teammates comes from playing together a lot. With this I mean basic synergy so your team makes the same calls consistently (instead of the everpresent ohlolimafarmthiswavewhilemyteamgetsrapedatbaron).
Secondly, if the team isn't full of immature selfcentered people (coughtsmcough) you can deduct way easier what went wrong and how to prevent it from happening again as a team (instead of the solo q mentality you see from a lot of the streamers; I'm pro, the rest of my team isn't, therefor I make the right plays and it's my teams fault we lost even if I get caught out 1v5).
And as third, and most important point, would come the hero synergies. LoL can, like all moba games, be decided in the picking/banning phase. It feels like a lot of picking is done with the idea of countering your direct laning opposition and fuck team synergy; while teams can be much stronger with -decent- matchups and a buttload of team synergy. This also leads to actual cc-rotation practice so a team can make from sure kills what they are: sure kills.
On March 14 2012 22:43 Two_DoWn wrote:
We have replays?
Stream records?
If only the LoL client was a copy of the HoN client =<
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One thing I did forget to mention. Part of my high oppinion of solo q is the idea that players should be DUO q. As much as possible. Mid and Jungle should be duo. Bot should be duo.
I think the only practice CDE actually got prior to korea was SV and Regi duo qing and running around killing people. Come Korea, they did exactly the same thing.
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On March 14 2012 22:53 Two_DoWn wrote:
One thing I did forget to mention. Part of my high oppinion of solo q is the idea that players should be DUO q. As much as possible. Mid and Jungle should be duo. Bot should be duo.
I think the only practice CDE actually got prior to korea was SV and Regi duo qing and running around killing people. Come Korea, they did exactly the same thing.
The difference between someone who plays in the top 10 teams and the average player in the top elo pub games is too huge to call it practice.
The point I'm trying to make is that it would be awesome practice to play 2n2 as bot lane vs botlane against another pro team. But Chauster/Double trying to "practice" botlane in a pub high elo game doesn't cut it.
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On March 14 2012 22:59 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 22:53 Two_DoWn wrote:
One thing I did forget to mention. Part of my high oppinion of solo q is the idea that players should be DUO q. As much as possible. Mid and Jungle should be duo. Bot should be duo.
I think the only practice CDE actually got prior to korea was SV and Regi duo qing and running around killing people. Come Korea, they did exactly the same thing. The difference between someone who plays in the top 10 teams and the average player in the top elo pub games is too huge to call it practice. The point I'm trying to make is that it would be awesome practice to play 2n2 as bot lane vs botlane against another pro team. But Chauster/Double trying to "practice" botlane in a pub high elo game doesn't cut it.
From a mechanical sense it doesnt. But chauster and dlift playing 5 lanes against 5 pairs of people doing random shit has a lot of learning potential in terms of seeing wierd shit that may or may not work.
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United States47024 Posts
Exactly. Chau/Double playing the first 5 minutes of the game 10 times against Chaox/Xpecial is likely to be WAY more useful than playing 1 game against 2 bot laners that are worse individually, aren't communicating with each other, and don't even know each other.
On March 14 2012 23:01 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 22:59 r.Evo wrote:On March 14 2012 22:53 Two_DoWn wrote:
One thing I did forget to mention. Part of my high oppinion of solo q is the idea that players should be DUO q. As much as possible. Mid and Jungle should be duo. Bot should be duo.
I think the only practice CDE actually got prior to korea was SV and Regi duo qing and running around killing people. Come Korea, they did exactly the same thing. The difference between someone who plays in the top 10 teams and the average player in the top elo pub games is too huge to call it practice. The point I'm trying to make is that it would be awesome practice to play 2n2 as bot lane vs botlane against another pro team. But Chauster/Double trying to "practice" botlane in a pub high elo game doesn't cut it. From a mechanical sense it doesnt. But chauster and dlift playing 5 lanes against 5 pairs of people doing random shit has a lot of learning potential in terms of seeing wierd shit that may or may not work.
Except you get a lot more chances to see "weird shit" when you play the first 5 minutes of the game 50 times rather than playing 5 full games.
It's just that rote drilling like that is "boring", both to the players, and (possibly more important to anyone on CLG or TSM) the stream viewers.
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On March 14 2012 23:01 TheYango wrote:
It's just that rote drilling like that is "boring", both to the players, and (possibly more important to anyone on CLG or TSM) the stream viewers.
FWIW, as long as they are ok with the knowledge that they won't be the top of the game with this mindset, I have no issues with teams choosing to make their money through being an entertainment product instead of a championship product. If they can maintain viewers while not winning then by all means do it, I'm not here to tell people how to make their money.
I just hope that some NA team takes it seriously though, because it's nice to have someone worth rooting for.
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On March 14 2012 23:10 red_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 23:01 TheYango wrote:
It's just that rote drilling like that is "boring", both to the players, and (possibly more important to anyone on CLG or TSM) the stream viewers. FWIW, as long as they are ok with the knowledge that they won't be the top of the game with this mindset, I have no issues with teams choosing to make their money through being an entertainment product instead of a championship product. If they can maintain viewers while not winning then by all means do it, I'm not here to tell people how to make their money. I just hope that some NA team takes it seriously though, because it's nice to have someone worth rooting for.
Absolutely, everything I said about how teams should be doing practice is what I think in terms of if they want to be the best professional team. If they want to just do this for now and stream and get some monies, who would I be to say they are wrong to do it?
For the love and passion of the competetive scene and following it, I hope the top teams take their play seriously, which is what I believe happens with the rise of Korean and Chinese scene. And for a spectator, ain't no better thing.
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On March 14 2012 21:43 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 21:30 r.Evo wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320609Oh gawd, it's happening again. We so bad for playing such an easy game. =( Edit: Wow, after actually reading most of those pages I gotta say it's worse than I thought. @Neo: I'm cool with people not liking a game. But I don't know, the senseless bashing is really annoying. Stuff like this reminds me of 4chan, not of TL: + Show Spoiler +On March 14 2012 20:00 Jakkerr wrote:
It's quite sad that such an easy game is now the #1 E-sports game.
That's like live broadcasting rock paper scissors On March 14 2012 20:06 CNLL wrote:
Guess money buys everything. They turned a pretty awful game in the number #1 esport game, so yea, sad. On March 14 2012 20:09 MethodSC wrote:
It truly is the age of casuals... =/ I blame SC2. TL was never like this before the huge influx of players after SC2 was released.
so all those bw fans who have been shitting on sc2 for the last 2 years just dont exist?
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On March 14 2012 23:40 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 21:43 TheYango wrote:On March 14 2012 21:30 r.Evo wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320609Oh gawd, it's happening again. We so bad for playing such an easy game. =( Edit: Wow, after actually reading most of those pages I gotta say it's worse than I thought. @Neo: I'm cool with people not liking a game. But I don't know, the senseless bashing is really annoying. Stuff like this reminds me of 4chan, not of TL: + Show Spoiler +On March 14 2012 20:00 Jakkerr wrote:
It's quite sad that such an easy game is now the #1 E-sports game.
That's like live broadcasting rock paper scissors On March 14 2012 20:06 CNLL wrote:
Guess money buys everything. They turned a pretty awful game in the number #1 esport game, so yea, sad. On March 14 2012 20:09 MethodSC wrote:
It truly is the age of casuals... =/ I blame SC2. TL was never like this before the huge influx of players after SC2 was released. so all those bw fans who have been shitting on sc2 for the last 2 years just dont exist?
Blame the internet.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 14 2012 23:40 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 21:43 TheYango wrote:On March 14 2012 21:30 r.Evo wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320609Oh gawd, it's happening again. We so bad for playing such an easy game. =( Edit: Wow, after actually reading most of those pages I gotta say it's worse than I thought. @Neo: I'm cool with people not liking a game. But I don't know, the senseless bashing is really annoying. Stuff like this reminds me of 4chan, not of TL: + Show Spoiler +On March 14 2012 20:00 Jakkerr wrote:
It's quite sad that such an easy game is now the #1 E-sports game.
That's like live broadcasting rock paper scissors On March 14 2012 20:06 CNLL wrote:
Guess money buys everything. They turned a pretty awful game in the number #1 esport game, so yea, sad. On March 14 2012 20:09 MethodSC wrote:
It truly is the age of casuals... =/ I blame SC2. TL was never like this before the huge influx of players after SC2 was released. so all those bw fans who have been shitting on sc2 for the last 2 years just dont exist?
They weren't shitting on SC2 when SC2 didn't exist yet. 
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So Reginald kicking the person who dared to argue against him yet it was Regi who consistantly underperformed during the last tourney. His team, his rules I guess.
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EPT
