[Patch 1.0.0.135: Fiora] General Discussion - Page 129

Same rules apply, per usual. Please use the appropriate threads (QQ, Brag, Champion, etc) whenever appropriate. Keep the resident Banling content.

Thanks. Happy Gaming.

Abenson

Canada4122 Posts

March 13 2012 16:04 GMT

#2561

Hello everyone.
I am playing in a small local tournament, and due to the enemy team captain having no organizational skills we had a huge scheduling conflict.
Basically, my problem is that I need 2 ringers for a Bo3 in the tournament.
The enemy team is composed of mainly 1400~1500 elo, so don't worry about doing too badly.
The game will be Wednesday, March 14th, 1:00PM EST.
Please PM me on TL if you are available during that time and is willing to play.

Thanks,
Abenson

Two_DoWn

United States13684 Posts

March 13 2012 16:09 GMT

#2562

On March 14 2012 00:33 Sabin010 wrote:

Show nested quote +

On March 13 2012 23:51 Two_DoWn wrote:

On March 13 2012 22:40 Sabin010 wrote:

On March 13 2012 21:46 Alaric wrote:
I'm probably done jungling Jax tho, he feels really too weak early on as a sustained dps dude with no survivability except for a dodge on a really long cd (granted, that game there were no autoattackers except Ez, and even then, but I've felt that way for awhile). Besides, his clears aren't even that fast. Better pick Olaf if I want a lategame monster, jungling bruiser.

I would not pick a jungler because I want to become a lategame monster. That's what top lane is for. IMO the best Junglers need to have strong early/mid games to snowball into the mid/late game. Look at a champ like Lee Sin. If Lee doesn't get any successful ganks there is so much more farm in the lanes that he is going to fall behind in items, and he will have a poor late game. Look at Fiddle Sticks. If he gets 4 items he's going to be a scary champ poping out of bushes and killing carries in one combo. If Fiddle gets counter jungled and falls behind in levels he's not going to have the same threat which is why the first 4 levels of Fiddle's jungle will make or break him IMO. If you can get 4 and get a good gank, you're going to be able to keep up, but if you're blue gets stolen and wraiths get stolen and its 7 minutes in and you haven't hit 4 yet you're going to need the enemy to throw the game, or get carried by a 10-0 lane guy.

This is why I don't like WW. His pre-6 gank is nothing to write home about, and he can get more farm for a superior late game out of top lane.

Another thing to factor in when picking your jungler, is where is the cc coming from? If my bot lane is Soraka, Graves I'm not going to be picking Shyvanna because there is no cc in that lane. I would rather take a Jungler with good cc to secure kills in those ganks. Shyvanna is best when combined with a team that has cc coming from every lane. Just some food for though.

tl;dr Pick your jungler because of strong ganks early/mid game and they fit in with the team comp, don't pick a jungler because you can afk farm from camp to camp hoping to come out at 40 minutes and be a late game terror, more often then not you're not going to make it that far because your team is dying in lane, blaming you, and you're not helping make kills happen.

This is pretty much entirely wrong. Shyv, Udyr, WW, GP, J4, and a lot more all become late game monsters if you play them correctly, especially out of the jungle.

Shyv/Udyr/Mundo are all capable of staying even with solo lane farm because of how fast they clear. Ive had games at 1800 elo where I outfarm my solo lanes on Shyvana. And if you come roaring out of the jungle at level 11 with Wriggles, Wits, and bits of a phage, you are going to be able to sustain that into late game. Its the same with mundo and udyr. All you have to do is scale yourself ahead of their damage with tank items, which given the relative cost of offense to defense in this game, is very doable.

On the flip side, GP and WW, even though they are single target, are very capable of becoming late game monsters even if they dont get fed through ganks. Its just about building smart and tanking advantage of your mid game. For example, a GP with a HoG and a 2/3 of a triforce is going to be able to roll people from levels 13-18. After that its just about correctly determining what you need to stay alive and getting that item.

Hitting that late game carry point isnt about how much farm you get in the later stages of the game- its all about how much farm you get early and then how you play off that farm in midgame. Everything snowballs off of that. Its why the "who gets lane farm" doesnt matter late game in this argument. By then you are who you are. But if you can get a few decent items midgame then play that off correctly, you will become a late game carry.

How is what I said almost entirely wrong? Are you really going to pick Shyvanna over some one like Naut when your lanes are Tryn, Orianna, Soraka, and Ez? Even if you're building tanky to counter their DPS, if your DPS isn't cutting it because they're not getting kills in lane from ganks while the enemy is getting kills from ganks, you're going into the mid/late game behind. Can you elaborate a little more as to what exactly is wrong in my post? You mention GP, who is an exception because of his ability to gank two lanes at once when he's six, and his q farm will add up in a 40 minute game.

Well, the bits about LS getting screwed by not getting kills early is correct.

Elaboration: It is a VERY bad idea to pick a jungle based on if you think you need CC for ganks. How do you even know you will have an opportunity TO gank? Proper warding from the enemy team and you are screwed. Not to mention a good portion of the champ pool is pretty damn hard to gank, not to mention bot lane itself is the worst gank you can try to execute on a regular basis. Part of the reason TOO so reliably falls behind late game is because he focuses so hard on trying to gank and force something to be there that isnt. If you pidgeon hole yourself into that role from the start, you are going to end up with a team that has 2 useless champions instead of just one.

Now, CC gankers work. But they work best with EARLY game champions who have burst and generally some CC of their own, not late game ones. TSM won MLG with Mao LB, not Mao Oriana. If you are building a late game comp, your focus should be on farming and trying to take an advantage as soon as you possibly can. Shyvana, for example, is capable of applying pressure on the enemy jungle and making THEM uncomfortable, which in turn protects your lane. Nautilus, on the other hand, gives the enemy free reign to do whatever he wants and even gives him the ability to start applying pressure not only to your lanes, but you as well. Sure, you can try to gank your way to victory, but in a case where the enemy has proper wards or ganks arent converted, you will end up behind.

As for that actual hypothetical team in a late game scenario, I would rather have Shyvana. You built a zerg comp. Naut has the ability to q in, but after that he stands around. Shyvana can take the ori ball, ult in, and start wreaking havoc with tryndamere while your ezreal stands to the outside and picks off the people running from you. After all, you are shyvana, and people WILL be runing from you. With Nautilus, your teamfight is actually pretty bad. With shyvana in that comp you have a great zerg team. With naut, you cant really go aggressive OR let them engage onto you. Trynd wants to be aggressive, but Naut has no good way to draw agro from the enemy if both of them are in melee range. And as soon as the fight starts the enemy is going to try to rush past you as soon as you can to get at your squishies. And you dont have anywhere NEAR enough peel on one character to make that happen. Sure, you can stop one person and slow the rest, but thats it. They blow past you, pick apart your squishies, and leave you and tryndamere standing around looking for someone to hit.

Now, pretend you had a comp with Annie, Ashe, Jarvan, and well, any support but janna. Naut fits VERY well into that comp. Everything about that comp screams locking down the enemy, catching someone out and just bursting them down. Not to mention Naut is going to make your early dragon fights very good when comboing with the early burst from Annie. Someone like Mundo doesnt work as well here. He has low initial burst and doesnt really add anything to that initial combo.

Getting CC for CC's sake is basically the same as getting as seeing a 1k player say "we need a tank" in champ select.

And as for your last point- ya, if the enemy jungle gets kills on your team, you are going to be behind. But the answer to that isnt "we need to get kills IN REVENGE" its "how do we not die"

WaveofShadow

Canada31495 Posts

March 13 2012 16:34 GMT

#2563

As for that actual hypothetical team in a late game scenario, I would rather have Shyvana. You built a zerg comp. Naut has the ability to q in, but after that he stands around. Shyvana can take the ori ball, ult in, and start wreaking havoc with tryndamere while your ezreal stands to the outside and picks off the people running from you. After all, you are shyvana, and people WILL be runing from you. With Nautilus, your teamfight is actually pretty bad. With shyvana in that comp you have a great zerg team. With naut, you cant really go aggressive OR let them engage onto you. Trynd wants to be aggressive, but Naut has no good way to draw agro from the enemy if both of them are in melee range. And as soon as the fight starts the enemy is going to try to rush past you as soon as you can to get at your squishies. And you dont have anywhere NEAR enough peel on one character to make that happen. Sure, you can stop one person and slow the rest, but thats it. They blow past you, pick apart your squishies, and leave you and tryndamere standing around looking for someone to hit.

Or they disengage/choose not to fight until they initiate properly with some form of cc....
I agree that Naut isn't a good pick necessarily in that case, but I think at that point with that team you're probably screwed anyway. I understand it's hypothetical, I just don't see how it's GOOD.

UniversalSnip

9871 Posts

March 13 2012 16:37 GMT

#2564

On March 14 2012 01:03 Alaric wrote:
Then def-not-Moonbear came by and told us "No there's really no-thing at all secretly special hidden in those files~".

don't people have the ability to poke around in these files? im surprised nobody has been like oh hey guys look at the super secret stuff I found here in the files.

wei2coolman

United States60033 Posts

March 13 2012 16:37 GMT

#2565

On March 13 2012 23:54 Alaric wrote:
Get a 3100 item without easy buildup (Shurelya's components are individually both good and cheap for example) nor direct team benefit on a support, and we'll talk again.

Edit: yeap, I know all that, T_D—well, I read you every time at least. I'm tempted to pick up Mundo but I'm waiting for his next free week to make sure, GP just doesn't cater to me (only thing I like in his kit is ranged harass, and critplank so obnoxious it managed to send me away)*. Then I'll have to break some dude's heart by telling him "your Amumu blows!", then to another wanting the spot "your Shyvana blows too, unless enemy team feeds you!", then claim the spot and go into hell camp practice mode.

* had a Tryndamere yesterday, went top, announced to us it was his first Tryn game, proceeded to smash a Fiora (wasn't on rotation yet) and carry from getting so fed, then apologized to her and to the enemy team, saying he just bought him as he hated him and wanted to try for himself. Added that now that it was done, he didn't have to play him again. Was fun.

lolololol, that's my story with trynd too. I use to duo q with my friend a lot, and he'd always play trynd, usually going legendary almost every single game.

I was convicned trynd was the most op'd ezpz champ ever. So i bought trynd simply to show him how op'd he was, Played 2 games, went legendary each game. Never played trynd since.

Sabin010

United States1892 Posts

March 13 2012 16:38 GMT

#2566

Still wondering when megaman ez is coming out...

Kyo Yuy

United States1286 Posts

March 13 2012 16:39 GMT

#2567

On the topic of Shyvana, I'm curious - why do high level players build Wriggles on Shyvana?

I always thought that one of the benefits of AOE fast clear junglers is that they don't NEED Wriggles which gives them room to build other items, like GP10s or Wit's End or whatever is appropriate.

I am not trying to argue that building Wriggles on Shyvana is WRONG, I just want to know why that is the case.

In general, what is the benefit of getting Wriggles on fast clear junglers like Shyvana, Mundo, and Skarner? Especially in the case of Mundo I am curious what people think of Wriggles on him - TOO gets Wriggles on Mundo whereas Saint does not.

Thermia

United States866 Posts

March 13 2012 16:45 GMT

#2568

On March 14 2012 01:39 Kyo Yuy wrote:
On the topic of Shyvana, I'm curious - why do high level players build Wriggles on Shyvana?

I always thought that one of the benefits of AOE fast clear junglers is that they don't NEED Wriggles which gives them room to build other items, like GP10s or Wit's End or whatever is appropriate.

I am not trying to argue that building Wriggles on Shyvana is WRONG, I just want to know why that is the case.

In general, what is the benefit of getting Wriggles on fast clear junglers like Shyvana, Mundo, and Skarner? Especially in the case of Mundo I am curious what people think of Wriggles on him - TOO gets Wriggles on Mundo whereas Saint does not.

The double attack/reset from her q makes stealing buffs/doing baron and dragon insanely fast with wriggles.

Shikyo

Finland33997 Posts

March 13 2012 16:47 GMT

#2569

Well if TOO gets wriggles on mundo and SV doesnt it basically means you should avoid wriggles on him like the plague

Parametric

Canada1261 Posts

March 13 2012 16:50 GMT

#2570

1 items slot for sustain + buff/dragon control. The extra damage, armor and ward are just a bonuses, it also speeds up counter jungling where you don't want a full AoE clear, you mainly just want their buffs and a few other creeps.

Schwopzi

Netherlands954 Posts

March 13 2012 16:53 GMT

#2571

On March 14 2012 01:47 Shikyo wrote:
Well if TOO gets wriggles on mundo and SV doesnt it basically means you should avoid wriggles on him like the plague

Shyvana needs a form of sustain (plus double attack from q = somanyprocs). Mundo gets his sustain naturally from health through his passive + ult.

seRapH

United States9808 Posts

March 13 2012 16:54 GMT

#2572

Shyvana could have the potentially highest single target nuke on a creep when she gets wriggles. I'm pretty sure that shyv q double proc wriggles > wriggles crit > feast > consume > smite. If the first two weren't random it'd be seriously broken.

edit: If you get atma's then double crit wriggles proc = wtf lol

Shikyo

Finland33997 Posts

March 13 2012 16:56 GMT

#2573

Yeah I'd get wriggles on shyvana of course, she likes the stats and it helps with making her even faster and it helps with speedy buffjacks and it is extremely cost-efficient and gives a free ward so it acts as a gold per 5 item

Mogwai

United States13274 Posts

March 13 2012 16:56 GMT

#2574

na trick, lux lasers >>>>> all on creeps. at least that's what solo queue has taught me.

Glaceau

Wales333 Posts

March 13 2012 17:00 GMT

#2575

lux is in barely any games tho.

if there's a lee sin on the other team he's gonna steal it with Q and smite and you cant do anything about it.

Sabin010

United States1892 Posts

March 13 2012 17:01 GMT

#2576

If you start Cloth 5 pot your don't have many options for that cloth, Razers, Aegis, GA are the ones that come to mind.

Shikyo

Finland33997 Posts

March 13 2012 17:10 GMT

#2577

On March 14 2012 02:01 Sabin010 wrote:
If you start Cloth 5 pot your don't have many options for that cloth, Razers, Aegis, GA are the ones that come to mind.

Ninja Tabi, Randuin's Omen are both good. Oh yeah and LOCKET OF THE IRON SOLARI !11 !

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

March 13 2012 17:13 GMT

#2578

On March 14 2012 01:54 seRapH wrote:
Shyvana could have the potentially highest single target nuke on a creep when she gets wriggles. I'm pretty sure that shyv q double proc wriggles > wriggles crit > feast > consume > smite. If the first two weren't random it'd be seriously broken.

edit: If you get atma's then double crit wriggles proc = wtf lol

What junglers are you getting 575 damage crits on with reasonable itemization?

Not to mention Baron has 120 armor and 70 MR, so you'd actually need a 1500 damage crit for a Wriggle's crit to do more than 1k to Baron.