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As we all know, Ignite is extremely popular both in normal and ranked on low/mid ELO. The question is - why is it picked over other, seemingly more useful spells?
Let's compare Exhaust with Ignite, for example:
In ganking/early 2v1
- The slow granted by Exhaust should allow you to get 1-2 nukes into a fleeing target, unless your cooldowns are truly ridiculous. If more than one person is attacking, this should always outdamage Ignite.
- Exhaust gives more opportunity for chaining stuns/slows
- Exhaust forces the target to flee instead of taking one of the attackers with them, ensuring safety
In early 2v2
- Exhaust shuts down physical carries. Thus, most of a duo lane's DPS is negated, while also preventing escape
In early 1v1
- Exhaust can win a duel the same way Ignite can; Ignite can guarantee a trade instead of a loss, but won't help you survive
- In case of a jungler gank, see above
In escaping
- Exhaust can slow the stunner/biggest DPS threat. Ignite won't help at all
In late game teamfights
- an exhausted carry's nullified damage output (even after squishy targets' armor) exceeds Ignite's damage after ~3 shots, and it can also assist in chasing after the fight
Personally, I play my nukers Flash/Teleport or Flash/Clarity. I've found even a chaser such as Katarina to benefit more from Ghost/Exhaust than Ignite/Exhaust.
I understand that Ignite has situational use, in synergies (Poppy, Mordekaiser) and countering (Mundo, Tryndamere, lifesteal in general). However, >2 ignites per team seem really ridiculous - or am I overlooking something important here?
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you use ignite to counter healing spells, other than that its just a cheap ks skill.
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exhaust can't shut down flash in short lanes or over walls - for midlane in particular unless one side is very overextended exhaust usually won't secure a kill as reliably as ignite
its good for anti-heal
it finds its popularity in mid for aforementioned reasons
there tend to be a decent number of sustained toplanes or burst killers toplane, and ignite goes well against / with these kits
some more bursty ADs can also consider taking ignite, but heal provides more in terms of pure numbers (if an ignited person uses heal I believe it heals more than the ignite deals in damage at all levels) and is usable reliably so heal is a more popular option botlane
junglers who take exhaust instead of flash (due to lack of flash/ghost as a necessity in kit, additional jungling / counterjungling safety) often as mentioned have something in their kit to make up for the lack of an positioning summoner spell, and they are often in a position to use exhaust for the reasons you mentioned above - often in the front line and can apply exhaust to the enemy AD much more easily as well as being able to use it in ganks or in counterjungling - exhaust is stronger in 2v1s or 2v2 situations as the enemy is more likely to want to run away but is less likely to be able to in these situations
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Ignite adds burst damage, which is what most mid aps look for so you can 100-0. You don't want to give them time to escape or use flash, or if they flash out the ignite ticks can kill them off.
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On February 25 2012 04:54 bokeevboke wrote:
you use ignite to counter healing spells, other than that its just a cheap ks skill.
Not really true. It's very useful for AP carries because they generally want to maximize their burst. Additionally, when they go for a kill in lane or small skirmishes, AP carries generally don't have much damage once they use their spell rotation (with a few exceptions). Their auto attacks are usually not very strong and don't do much damage; ignite allows them to do that extra little bit of damage to secure a kill. You also sometimes want to run it on champs with high kill potential in lane like Pantheon to maximize your 1v1 killing potential. Late game and during teamfights it's more for countering heals and for that extra edge.
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Typically you always need at least 1 ignite on a team just to counter lifesteal or vamp. Even if you're not facing a swain/mundo/ww you need an ignite for the ad carry to cut their lifesteal.
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ignite > flash > exhaust > heal > ignite
that's how the quartet of popular summoners work in my mind
the suggestion in the OP that clarity is better than ignite is pretty :wtf:
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On February 25 2012 05:20 gtrsrs wrote:
ignite > flash > exhaust > heal > ignite
that's how the quartet of popular summoners work in my mind
the suggestion in the OP that clarity is better than ignite is pretty :wtf:
I hope he meant cleanse.
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On February 25 2012 04:45 stargrave wrote:
Personally, I play my nukers Flash/Teleport or Flash/Clarity. I've found even a chaser such as Katarina to benefit more from Ghost/Exhaust than Ignite/Exhaust.
The fact you even mentionned Clarity makes your opinion invalid.
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On February 25 2012 05:35 Fredle wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 04:45 stargrave wrote:
Personally, I play my nukers Flash/Teleport or Flash/Clarity. I've found even a chaser such as Katarina to benefit more from Ghost/Exhaust than Ignite/Exhaust.
The fact you even mentionned Clarity makes your opinion invalid.
This sounds mean but it's true. There is no way clarity should ever be considered at any level.
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- The slow granted by Exhaust should allow you to get 1-2 nukes into a fleeing target, unless your cooldowns are truly ridiculous. If more than one person is attacking, this should always outdamage Ignite.
This kinda is the reason why you generally see ignite on AP midlaners. Almost all of them rely on skills to do the majority of their damage, and often these skills have long cooldowns. To compound this, the length of midlane is really short, so running to your tower for cover is really easy to do. This is the big reason why you see ignite on AP champs above exhaust almost all the time. They just can't really make use of exhaust. It doesn't really work too well defensively either, as generally if the opponent has come into range for you to exhaust, they probably have already blown all their cooldowns anyway.
You almost never see ignite on bot lane except on some champions like Tristana, for a lot of the reasons you already stated, and you don't see ignite on junglers either, as the junglers that can make do without flash usually take exhaust, for the reasons you stated.... (Lee Sin, Shyvana, Shaco, etc.). I just don't actually see ignite that much in my games at all and I'm a very low level player (1200). At most I'll see two on a team, but generally I usually only see one each team, almost always on their mid AP champ.
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Ignite is very strong, the heal debuff is very important, and in mid lane, where you compete only with burst it makes the diference between kills and near kills.
On top lane, the anti heal is very usefull because of all the sustain monsters that go around.
It's not used as much bot or jungle because the damage scales with level and bot/jungle are usually the least leveled character on the team
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When 2 bursty champs (read: most ap champs) meet, ignite plays a huge role in being able to 100-0 the enemy champ. Whoever doesn't bring ignite will lose a full exchange, so their opponent can play more aggressively.
There are certain mid champs that don't really benefit that much from ignite. Ryze and Karthus for example do enough sustained damage to not rely on a single combo killing their opponent, so I'd rather have exhaust or teleport on them unless facing swain or something like that. Cassio on the other hand does great sustained damage too, but you still want ignite to be able to kill someone during your ult stun.
While you can justify teleport in some scenarios (awesome to turn ganks around or to gank yourself, or just to split push more with TF), clarity is basically wasting a summoner.
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Ultimately, it's the much lower cooldown compared to exhaust/heal that makes Ignite the better choice for mid.
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On February 25 2012 07:19 Juicyfruit wrote:
Ultimately, it's the much lower cooldown compared to exhaust/heal that makes Ignite the better choice for mid.
highly debatable and probably not true stated that way - i would avoid absolute statements like this lul
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TBH sometimes I'll ignite my opponent at the first trade just to gain the 5ad/ap for easier lasthitting and stronger trades later. This is champion dependant though.
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On February 25 2012 07:40 Navi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 07:19 Juicyfruit wrote:
Ultimately, it's the much lower cooldown compared to exhaust/heal that makes Ignite the better choice for mid. highly debatable and probably not true stated that way - i would avoid absolute statements like this lul
I don't know, I think if heal or exhaust cooldown was the same as ignite, I'd find it very hard to argue picking up ignite. But you're right I'm only thinking about the 1v1 aspect :x
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On February 25 2012 07:53 Amui wrote:
TBH sometimes I'll ignite my opponent at the first trade just to gain the 5ad/ap for easier lasthitting and stronger trades later. This is champion dependant though.
Lol, I don't think this is ever worth it, and if it is, you picked the wrong summoners.
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Exhaust isn't that bad mid, but it depends on heroes. It's pretty good on heroes like cassio where you have sustained damage and just want to lay your e's into them as much as possible, but there aren't that many aps who don't have burst damage and rely on cds.
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In addition to what has already been mentioned, ignite is somewhat popular bot lane as well. Obviously, if you're running a kill lane it's great, but it is sometimes picked in standard ad / support lanes. This goes for high elo as well, often you will see top NA teams running ignite bottom (albeit not as commonly as other spells, but it's still run). I'd say (as many already have) that the main reason to run ignite is for the extra burst. It's a tradeoff, would ignite give more damage, or would exhaust slow them long enough to be in range for another round of spells / a significant number of auto attacks.
Often lanes like sivir taric will take ignite. In fact, any lane with an aggressive support (ali, leona, taric) it's not all that uncommon to see an ignite, either on the support or on the AD
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Ignite is simply better in the earlygame. It allows for a lot more pressure in forcing your opponent to play more defensively at high hp counts. With or without ignite, a good player knows how much damage you're going to be able to do in your burst, but ignite forces him to play more defensive earlier. Just think about it, how many times have you died to the last tick of ignite? It's a really frustrating feeling.
Exhaust is simply better in the lategame, since it effectively makes it a 4v5 for a duration of time. Plop that exhaust on Cassiopeia and she won't be doing anything with her skills, at least until the duration is up. It's a lot more useful against champions that do a ton of burst in a short period of time, but have longer cooldowns to make up for it.
People usually take Ignite over Exhaust because the lane phase is the most important phase in the game. If you can't win you're lane, you're going to have to play catch-up, and the opponents have an opportunity to make it snowball out of control if 2 of your team's lanes have lost.
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Yea a lot of ap carries run like flash ignie for that burst kull potential. I myself as karthus run ghost/flash or flash/tele. The first is to make it easy to avoid ganks while im laning and the second which i favor lately iw to add more of a global presance. Ie i can just afk farm but if needing to help a lane boom tele or boom ult. Really allows me as karth to assist other lanes while farming.
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You run Ignite simply for one main reason: winning your lane.
It does make the difference for early burst kills that will snowball into a victory. Not only AP mids use it, it is good on burst ad carries like Tristana, too. I even saw it on some really aggressive jungle Shacos and it is usually a staple summoner on ad assasins that go in for the lvl 2 kill (Garen, Pantheon, maybe Talon and solo Ezreals).
Minor reasons might include but are not limited to healing reduction and securing kills on low HP targets that are known for regularly surviving certain death scenarios to prevent the "wtf?! how did u live?!" effect.
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On February 25 2012 07:53 Amui wrote:
TBH sometimes I'll ignite my opponent at the first trade just to gain the 5ad/ap for easier lasthitting and stronger trades later. This is champion dependant though.
I like doing this sometimes as a sort of trick play when i'm playing a bully laner. You throw out your level 2 or 3 combo and ignite to just get them low. Often my opponent will then start playing passively so I can just start zoning. Even though they still have their ignite, , they won't come and do the same thing I did, because they are scared and low. Its mostly psychological since they could come ignite and combo me to get me low.
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If it works well usually my ignite comes off CD before they get the balls to try trading with me again
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esp on botlane you kinda have for the summoners (besides flash)
heal > exhaust > ignite > heal
and all > cleanse  (just for summoners in lane without taking team comb into account that means that cleanse is not always bad its just the worst choice for lane besides mb crazy double stun lanes)
so what does ignite has:
good dmg (true dmg) often you can only burst 80% of the health and the remaining 20% could be the ignite. It has less cd then heal/exhaust (esp on botlane if I have ignite vs heal I always try to go asap if we traded summoners before ignite for heal) when my ignite is up again. Works really well!(the supports exhaust will be up though due to utiltiy masteries)
And for Exhaust it got nerfed hard when they changed the summoners. It used to be 3.5 seconds now its just 2.5 seconsd which made it worse
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I've seen ignite be incredibly useful in securing kills if a gank isn't successful but that requires good timing.
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Ignite forces your opponent to play slightly safer in the lane. The difference toplane is quite large in how you play vs a hero with teleport vs ignite. Teleport allows better map control, ignite offers superior lane control
As for midlane, APs want to be able to secure kills, and often they lack the ~100-200 damage provided by ignite to secure a kill. As well, it stops healing effects rather well. Heroes with low burst, such as Karthus do take Exhaust middle, especially since getting into ignite range can already be difficult, and basically takes the place of a Q when chasing. Exhaust doesn't really allow more spells on several heroes, such as Morgana, whos spells are on long enough of a cooldown that you don't really can't set up another snare in that time. Also Exhaust doesn't secure kills vs heroes that flash away, if you Exhaust someone at 150 HP and they flash under their tower and still have a disable, you are very hesitant to flash under the tower yourself. On damage over time heroes, often it is to prevent any form of healing from allies or self (Morde, Swain being large examples)
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Not only does ignite increase your burst damage (and reduces healing, which kinda reduces the HP you have to burst through), it also adds 5 AP and 5 AD. Which again increases your burst damage, and also increases your strength while the spell is on cooldown. 5 AD is pretty big at early levels. None of the other spells has such a permanent effect.
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If someone is running/flashing back to tower range during a trade that went badly, exhausting them only gets you time for extra damage abilities if they're still far enough out to safely chase, or if they've already flashed. Ignite will always deal its full compliment of damage regardless of what they do after ignite goes up. I can't tell you how many times I've been top lane, gotten someone within a couple of hits of death and then used one last ability + ignite right as they get in tower range. Especially at low level, diving for even 1-2 tower hits is extremely risky, especially if they have CC available etc. Exhausting in that situation does nothing, but ignite can land kills.
Another situation where ignite is good is during a gank when your lane opponent has strong escape abilities. For much the same reason that you want ignite if you're playing an AP champ and you're aiming to do as much burst as possible, throwing up ignite during a gank while they're cced ensures you'll do maximum damage even if they're riven and they immediately flash/q/e away when cc wears off.
In a teamfight scenario exhaust is obviously superior in most cases. For laning though I'd usually rather have ignite in a solo lane, depending on matchup of course.
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On February 25 2012 18:55 spinesheath wrote:
Not only does ignite increase your burst damage (and reduces healing, which kinda reduces the HP you have to burst through), it also adds 5 AP and 5 AD. Which again increases your burst damage, and also increases your strength while the spell is on cooldown. 5 AD is pretty big at early levels. None of the other spells has such a permanent effect.
It's not permanent.
But really I think ignite is great to strengthen finishing moves, ie mord ult, garen ult, etc. Saves you from blowing your ult only to have them live cause of a gay soraka ult.
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I can't speak for everyone, but I pick ignite on mid because it gives me kills.
Also, somebody almost always has to take it and mid is the best position for this.
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You can tempo an exhaust. You can't tempo an ignite.
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On February 25 2012 19:34 Zdrastochye wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 18:55 spinesheath wrote:
Not only does ignite increase your burst damage (and reduces healing, which kinda reduces the HP you have to burst through), it also adds 5 AP and 5 AD. Which again increases your burst damage, and also increases your strength while the spell is on cooldown. 5 AD is pretty big at early levels. None of the other spells has such a permanent effect. It's not permanent.
Guess the wording wasn't the best.
Ignite permanently improves your strength: The spell itself while it's up, and the 5AD/5AP while it's down.
Other summoner spells only have a value while they're up.
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Exhaust doesn't help me kill someone with Flash up, ignite does. Everyone runs Flash and Flash is even better in the limited space of mid lane so, if I want to have a hope of killing someone mid 1v1, I need ignite.
If I'm playing a champ who does't really go out of his way to kill someone 1v1 (say, Karthus for instance) then I'll probably run exhaust for teamfights or tp for general use.
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I'm understanding your confusion about bott lane picking this up; it's completely champion choice dependant, but since flash is a must have for almost every champion ignite/tele are the only viable options for 1v1 lanes. Ignite is just scary to lane against when you know that your opponent has it and you don't. The only spell I'd consider replacing it with is teleport to give myself a bigger map presence during game objectives (dragon, reaction to tower dives, free back to shop/heal, etc). Not taking ignite forces you to play much more passively, exhaust has its advantages but shouldn't be taken by anyone except bottom lane (except in very rare cases). Like if you were running some kind of pure ad v ad burst dps lane then taking exhaust could be viable, maybe...
In general any champion who won't benefit from ignite will benefit a lot more from teleport(what solo champ doesn't?); if you feel you need it to lock down a high ad dps in team fights, get your support to pick exhaust up ^_^;:.
Edit: Also as I'm sure was stated before; exhaust doesn't reduce flash distances, nor does it reduce escape skill distances, so versus many champions it's relatively useless in the laning phase atleast...
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I've always thought that:
Pick ignite for champs that burst
Pick exhaust for sustained dmg
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Exhaust is often even better for burst than for sustained damage. Consider how much of an effect Exhaust has on an AoE ult like Kennen/Fiddle/Annie. Maybe your own champ has a lot of burst, but consider that they might turn it around on you either with their 100-0 burst or a countergank, whereas Exhaust will prevent that.
There is no clear decision of one always being better than the other; it's entirely situational. You can pick for your lane or you can pick for your team fights later on. Maybe ignite is better for kills in every lane, but against a Trynd/Kennen/etc you absolutely need to have at least one exhaust. You need to balance your choices so you aren't excessively weak in one area of the game.
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EPT
