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Same rules apply, per usual. Please use the appropriate threads (QQ, Brag, Champion, etc) whenever appropriate. Keep the resident Banling content.
Thanks. Happy Gaming. |
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Wickd's connection blew up, they just cancelled the whole thing since no real point in scrimming like that.
Such a shame.
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On February 23 2012 02:50 zodde wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 01:31 Sabin010 wrote:On February 23 2012 00:58 Juicyfruit wrote:On February 23 2012 00:30 Two_DoWn wrote:On February 23 2012 00:28 Juicyfruit wrote:On February 22 2012 23:52 WhiteDog wrote:
Isn't the biggest problem to executionner blade is that it has no follow up ? I mean, if it could be used to build something else late game that was especially designed to counter healing and vamp but still give sufficient ad, it would be a great item. The fact it can potentially negate thousands worth of HP in healing means that you can't make exe calling that good, or risk messing up the balance of those self-sustaining champions. The operative oppinion there being that Swain, Mundo, and WW are all currently balanced when it comes to sustain. Maybe they are, but the problem is more that if you make exe a viable standalone item, for instance, then you'd be stuck trying to balance self-healers between "totally useless with healing debuff on" and "totally overpowered without healing debuff on". I mean they're already kind of like that now with Ignite :x I rush for EC on GP against anybody with sustain in top lane, WW, Nidalee etc. EC is already a perfect situational item. Why does it to upgrade? Why not make Wriggles lantern upgrade into something comparable to bloodthirster, then instead of selling my Wriggle's in the super late game I can just turn it into a bloodthirster and keep the free ward? EC is one of those items that is designed for winning what should be an unwinnable lane. Once you reach end game you just sell it for more damage. I'm a big fan of selling items, a few days ago I was playing MF and got fed. The enemy team all bought thornmails, so I sold my GA after it proc'd and went with a final build of BT, PD, Boots, Lichbanes, Deathcap, Last Whisper. I agree with pretty much all of your post. Buying lichbane, a physical dmg proc, to counter thornmails isn't that smart though :D (Unique: On cast, your next autoattack will deal additional physical damage equal to 100% of your ability power. 2 second cooldown.)
Its not like I sold the last whisper.
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I was leveling a smurf recently, I picked the highest skill level so everyone was a smurf of really low elo players instead of actual first timers to the game, and I kept seeing this build that was like tear of the goddess into lichbane, three games in a row on different players. What other funny builds do people use without knowing they're bad?
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On February 23 2012 00:45 Parnage wrote:
Support Rammus?! Heh now that's silly. No sir. You play Rammus as ad carry bot. Build him attackspeed and armory. Watch as he kills everyone. It's alittle dangerous early levels but it turns drastic in his favour assuming you didn't die by then by around 4-6 ish.
I'd love to see new bot combos'(Good ones not this ad kennen crap) More idea's!
Ap/soraka(talked about ealier in thread)
rammus/taric
Ad carry/shaco
It's fun trying new things!
soraka and veigar comes to mind in particular Q farmin all day and can also Q harrass
also... ad carry = nidalee and soraka is pretty nifty. you'll never get pushed out of lane with the chance of 5 heals and her heal doubling as an attack speed buff.
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2 phantom dancers before damage comes to mind.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 23 2012 03:30 Sabin010 wrote:
Its not like I sold the last whisper.
You do however, have extremely little Magic Resistance.
Thornmail reflects as magic damage. Magic Resistance is very useful in mitigating Thornmail's burn.
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nidalee is a dumb champion. why does she still hit so hard on just a fucking wriggle's and frozen heart... wtf!?
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She has one of those broken bonus damage if the guy has low hp moves, and has like a 7 move faceroll you keyboard combo.
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Can someone break-down the Wriggles + Phantom Dancer vs IE or BT builds on AD carries?
I'm not really good with the math but I've always leaned toward the 2 dblade --> IE/BT opening rather than the wriggles opening.
Me and my roommate have been arguing about it lately. I feel like wriggles is good when we're not winning the lane, he likes to get it on every single AD carry every single game, arguing it gives us better objective control and stronger laning, my argument being that it sacrifices pure damage when it comes to teamfights.
For the record I main supports and he mains AD carries.
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Person picks Karma -> I say "dude pick a support that doesn't suck please"
-> locks in the Karma, says "you havent seen a good Karma if you think they suck"
-> starts doran ring vs blitzcrank lane, I buy like 5 wards but the blitz spams vision wards and we have no control of the brushes and their jungler brush ganks us like 5 times total -> 20min surrender, karma bought 0 wards total whole game
No wonder people think karma is terrible.
And yes I said karma's a terrible support which she is, I think she's a really strong AP mid.
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Thornmail is one item I never really dislike people buying. Sure, I loathe the 99 armour since all I can play is AD carry (at least, reasonably well), but I'm never particularily worried about that 300 damage I take when killing you late game. As an AD Carry, if I die, it's probably because someone jumped on me, not when poking your tank from a distance to death.
Tl;dr: Why get a thornmail if you can't get close (and stay close) to utilize the bonus damage? Any tank player thoughts?
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On February 23 2012 04:19 Lancer723 wrote:
Can someone break-down the Wriggles + Phantom Dancer vs IE or BT builds on AD carries?
I'm not really good with the math but I've always leaned toward the 2 dblade --> IE/BT opening rather than the wriggles opening.
Me and my roommate have been arguing about it lately. I feel like wriggles is good when we're not winning the lane, he likes to get it on every single AD carry every single game, arguing it gives us better objective control and stronger laning, my argument being that it sacrifices pure damage when it comes to teamfights.
For the record I main supports and he mains AD carries.
Someone was arguing with me about that on smashboards ~ a week ago. We were talking about AD Kennen and this was my damage analysis:
You're blowing PD out of proportion in terms of how much it ups your AS.
Uhg, fine, let's take level 11 Kennen with maxed W.
21 offensive build with AD ****, AD Marks and Quints, AS Glyphs.
2 dblades, wriggles, zerkers, PD
AS: 1.545
AD: 154
Crit chance: 30%
Crit damage: 323.4
W Proc damage: 123.2
Over 10 attacks, we have 154 * 7 + 323.4 * 3 + 123.2 * 2 = 2294.6 damage
10 attacks takes ~6.47 seconds
DPS: 354.65
2 dblades, IE, brawler's gloves, zerkers
AS: 1.165
AD: 211
Crit chance: 33%
Crit damage: 548.6
W Proc damage: 168.8
Over 10 attacks, we have 211 * 6.7 + 548.6 * 3.3 + 168.8 * 2 = 3561.68 damage
10 attacks takes ~8.58 seconds
DPS: 415.11
Also note that my IE build costs over 200 gold less.
I'm not saying there's no situation where you'd want PD + Wriggle's opening, but IE will outperform it from a damage perspective and by a lot too.
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On February 23 2012 04:25 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 04:19 Lancer723 wrote:
Can someone break-down the Wriggles + Phantom Dancer vs IE or BT builds on AD carries?
I'm not really good with the math but I've always leaned toward the 2 dblade --> IE/BT opening rather than the wriggles opening.
Me and my roommate have been arguing about it lately. I feel like wriggles is good when we're not winning the lane, he likes to get it on every single AD carry every single game, arguing it gives us better objective control and stronger laning, my argument being that it sacrifices pure damage when it comes to teamfights.
For the record I main supports and he mains AD carries. Someone was arguing with me about that on smashboards ~ a week ago. We were talking about AD Kennen and this was my damage analysis: Show nested quote +You're blowing PD out of proportion in terms of how much it ups your AS.
Uhg, fine, let's take level 11 Kennen with maxed W.
21 offensive build with AD ****, AD Marks and Quints, AS Glyphs.
2 dblades, wriggles, zerkers, PD
AS: 1.545
AD: 154
Crit chance: 30%
Crit damage: 323.4
W Proc damage: 123.2
Over 10 attacks, we have 154 * 7 + 323.4 * 3 + 123.2 * 2 = 2294.6 damage
10 attacks takes ~6.47 seconds
DPS: 354.65
2 dblades, IE, brawler's gloves, zerkers
AS: 1.165
AD: 211
Crit chance: 33%
Crit damage: 548.6
W Proc damage: 168.8
Over 10 attacks, we have 211 * 6.7 + 548.6 * 3.3 + 168.8 * 2 = 3561.68 damage
10 attacks takes ~8.58 seconds
DPS: 415.11
Also note that my IE build costs over 200 gold less.
I'm not saying there's no situation where you'd want PD + Wriggle's opening, but IE will outperform it from a damage perspective and by a lot too.
So... they are trading 60 DPS for 30 armor and another 15% lifesteal + 10% movespeed + more warding, dragon and baron control? That's not exactly an easy choice to take one over the other, when a teamfight takes only 7 seconds of action, that's only an ignite's worth of damage difference.
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On February 23 2012 04:28 Fuzzmosis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 04:25 Mogwai wrote:On February 23 2012 04:19 Lancer723 wrote:
Can someone break-down the Wriggles + Phantom Dancer vs IE or BT builds on AD carries?
I'm not really good with the math but I've always leaned toward the 2 dblade --> IE/BT opening rather than the wriggles opening.
Me and my roommate have been arguing about it lately. I feel like wriggles is good when we're not winning the lane, he likes to get it on every single AD carry every single game, arguing it gives us better objective control and stronger laning, my argument being that it sacrifices pure damage when it comes to teamfights.
For the record I main supports and he mains AD carries. Someone was arguing with me about that on smashboards ~ a week ago. We were talking about AD Kennen and this was my damage analysis: You're blowing PD out of proportion in terms of how much it ups your AS.
Uhg, fine, let's take level 11 Kennen with maxed W.
21 offensive build with AD ****, AD Marks and Quints, AS Glyphs.
2 dblades, wriggles, zerkers, PD
AS: 1.545
AD: 154
Crit chance: 30%
Crit damage: 323.4
W Proc damage: 123.2
Over 10 attacks, we have 154 * 7 + 323.4 * 3 + 123.2 * 2 = 2294.6 damage
10 attacks takes ~6.47 seconds
DPS: 354.65
2 dblades, IE, brawler's gloves, zerkers
AS: 1.165
AD: 211
Crit chance: 33%
Crit damage: 548.6
W Proc damage: 168.8
Over 10 attacks, we have 211 * 6.7 + 548.6 * 3.3 + 168.8 * 2 = 3561.68 damage
10 attacks takes ~8.58 seconds
DPS: 415.11
Also note that my IE build costs over 200 gold less.
I'm not saying there's no situation where you'd want PD + Wriggle's opening, but IE will outperform it from a damage perspective and by a lot too. So... they are trading 60 DPS for 30 armor and another 15% lifesteal + 10% movespeed + more warding, dragon and baron control? That's not exactly an easy choice to take one over the other, when a teamfight takes only 7 seconds of action, that's only an ignite's worth of damage difference.
u mean 1267 dmg difference
edit: actually smash ur example is kind of misleading, the actual difference in dps is about 60~ or so, and the wriggles build does give u a lot stronger early game (and most games are decided from relatively early on); also keep in mind that if u go normal build and someone goes wriggles you're probably going to have to build a vamp scepter anyways to counter all that life steal, which is going to set ur IE back by 450g anyway
it also has a lot to do with what ranged carry ur playing, like if you're playing vayne u can obv run the wriggles build because of her ult + because of vayne's champ design but if you're playing someone like graves its prob better to run the usual build
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On February 23 2012 04:30 DURRHURRDERP wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 04:28 Fuzzmosis wrote:On February 23 2012 04:25 Mogwai wrote:On February 23 2012 04:19 Lancer723 wrote:
Can someone break-down the Wriggles + Phantom Dancer vs IE or BT builds on AD carries?
I'm not really good with the math but I've always leaned toward the 2 dblade --> IE/BT opening rather than the wriggles opening.
Me and my roommate have been arguing about it lately. I feel like wriggles is good when we're not winning the lane, he likes to get it on every single AD carry every single game, arguing it gives us better objective control and stronger laning, my argument being that it sacrifices pure damage when it comes to teamfights.
For the record I main supports and he mains AD carries. Someone was arguing with me about that on smashboards ~ a week ago. We were talking about AD Kennen and this was my damage analysis: You're blowing PD out of proportion in terms of how much it ups your AS.
Uhg, fine, let's take level 11 Kennen with maxed W.
21 offensive build with AD ****, AD Marks and Quints, AS Glyphs.
2 dblades, wriggles, zerkers, PD
AS: 1.545
AD: 154
Crit chance: 30%
Crit damage: 323.4
W Proc damage: 123.2
Over 10 attacks, we have 154 * 7 + 323.4 * 3 + 123.2 * 2 = 2294.6 damage
10 attacks takes ~6.47 seconds
DPS: 354.65
2 dblades, IE, brawler's gloves, zerkers
AS: 1.165
AD: 211
Crit chance: 33%
Crit damage: 548.6
W Proc damage: 168.8
Over 10 attacks, we have 211 * 6.7 + 548.6 * 3.3 + 168.8 * 2 = 3561.68 damage
10 attacks takes ~8.58 seconds
DPS: 415.11
Also note that my IE build costs over 200 gold less.
I'm not saying there's no situation where you'd want PD + Wriggle's opening, but IE will outperform it from a damage perspective and by a lot too. So... they are trading 60 DPS for 30 armor and another 15% lifesteal + 10% movespeed + more warding, dragon and baron control? That's not exactly an easy choice to take one over the other, when a teamfight takes only 7 seconds of action, that's only an ignite's worth of damage difference. u mean 1267 dmg difference
they're over different periods of time, he's actually right on the DPS difference.
but anyway, what I'm trying to say is that it's not clear cut. the build that makes you move faster and sustain harder does do noticeably less damage, it's not like 1 is always right and the other is always wrong.
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On February 23 2012 04:30 DURRHURRDERP wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 04:28 Fuzzmosis wrote:On February 23 2012 04:25 Mogwai wrote:On February 23 2012 04:19 Lancer723 wrote:
Can someone break-down the Wriggles + Phantom Dancer vs IE or BT builds on AD carries?
I'm not really good with the math but I've always leaned toward the 2 dblade --> IE/BT opening rather than the wriggles opening.
Me and my roommate have been arguing about it lately. I feel like wriggles is good when we're not winning the lane, he likes to get it on every single AD carry every single game, arguing it gives us better objective control and stronger laning, my argument being that it sacrifices pure damage when it comes to teamfights.
For the record I main supports and he mains AD carries. Someone was arguing with me about that on smashboards ~ a week ago. We were talking about AD Kennen and this was my damage analysis: You're blowing PD out of proportion in terms of how much it ups your AS.
Uhg, fine, let's take level 11 Kennen with maxed W.
21 offensive build with AD ****, AD Marks and Quints, AS Glyphs.
2 dblades, wriggles, zerkers, PD
AS: 1.545
AD: 154
Crit chance: 30%
Crit damage: 323.4
W Proc damage: 123.2
Over 10 attacks, we have 154 * 7 + 323.4 * 3 + 123.2 * 2 = 2294.6 damage
10 attacks takes ~6.47 seconds
DPS: 354.65
2 dblades, IE, brawler's gloves, zerkers
AS: 1.165
AD: 211
Crit chance: 33%
Crit damage: 548.6
W Proc damage: 168.8
Over 10 attacks, we have 211 * 6.7 + 548.6 * 3.3 + 168.8 * 2 = 3561.68 damage
10 attacks takes ~8.58 seconds
DPS: 415.11
Also note that my IE build costs over 200 gold less.
I'm not saying there's no situation where you'd want PD + Wriggle's opening, but IE will outperform it from a damage perspective and by a lot too. So... they are trading 60 DPS for 30 armor and another 15% lifesteal + 10% movespeed + more warding, dragon and baron control? That's not exactly an easy choice to take one over the other, when a teamfight takes only 7 seconds of action, that's only an ignite's worth of damage difference. u mean 1267 dmg difference
That's over the course of 10 attacks/ 8.5 secs, not the <7 he is implying a teamfight will take.
Edit: It would be interesting to see the math when the duration is the constant, i.e. the fight lasts 10 seconds and you're able to attack constantly, and see the total damage output. Erm, after thinking about it that would just be the DPS * 10 seconds, no? Or do the crits and procs affect it differently based on amount of time. I don't mathcraft 
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On February 23 2012 04:30 DURRHURRDERP wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 04:28 Fuzzmosis wrote:On February 23 2012 04:25 Mogwai wrote:On February 23 2012 04:19 Lancer723 wrote:
Can someone break-down the Wriggles + Phantom Dancer vs IE or BT builds on AD carries?
I'm not really good with the math but I've always leaned toward the 2 dblade --> IE/BT opening rather than the wriggles opening.
Me and my roommate have been arguing about it lately. I feel like wriggles is good when we're not winning the lane, he likes to get it on every single AD carry every single game, arguing it gives us better objective control and stronger laning, my argument being that it sacrifices pure damage when it comes to teamfights.
For the record I main supports and he mains AD carries. Someone was arguing with me about that on smashboards ~ a week ago. We were talking about AD Kennen and this was my damage analysis: You're blowing PD out of proportion in terms of how much it ups your AS.
Uhg, fine, let's take level 11 Kennen with maxed W.
21 offensive build with AD ****, AD Marks and Quints, AS Glyphs.
2 dblades, wriggles, zerkers, PD
AS: 1.545
AD: 154
Crit chance: 30%
Crit damage: 323.4
W Proc damage: 123.2
Over 10 attacks, we have 154 * 7 + 323.4 * 3 + 123.2 * 2 = 2294.6 damage
10 attacks takes ~6.47 seconds
DPS: 354.65
2 dblades, IE, brawler's gloves, zerkers
AS: 1.165
AD: 211
Crit chance: 33%
Crit damage: 548.6
W Proc damage: 168.8
Over 10 attacks, we have 211 * 6.7 + 548.6 * 3.3 + 168.8 * 2 = 3561.68 damage
10 attacks takes ~8.58 seconds
DPS: 415.11
Also note that my IE build costs over 200 gold less.
I'm not saying there's no situation where you'd want PD + Wriggle's opening, but IE will outperform it from a damage perspective and by a lot too. So... they are trading 60 DPS for 30 armor and another 15% lifesteal + 10% movespeed + more warding, dragon and baron control? That's not exactly an easy choice to take one over the other, when a teamfight takes only 7 seconds of action, that's only an ignite's worth of damage difference. u mean 1267 dmg difference
No.... I meant:
DPS: 354.65
DPS: 415.11
60.46 damage per second difference. * 7. = approx 423. As the fight goes longer, assuming somehow you're able to constantly be hitting (I.E. there's no chase or running), the I.E. build clearly has an edge, but most fights aren't static RPG punch fests.
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Well, I for one am glad that Smash's superior math skills back up my very unmathmatical assumptions and feel about the game. God I love when that happens.
And I hate the wriggles build with a passion. Firey suns, demonic chorus, killing kittens, you get the idea.
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On February 23 2012 04:34 mordek wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 04:30 DURRHURRDERP wrote:On February 23 2012 04:28 Fuzzmosis wrote:On February 23 2012 04:25 Mogwai wrote:On February 23 2012 04:19 Lancer723 wrote:
Can someone break-down the Wriggles + Phantom Dancer vs IE or BT builds on AD carries?
I'm not really good with the math but I've always leaned toward the 2 dblade --> IE/BT opening rather than the wriggles opening.
Me and my roommate have been arguing about it lately. I feel like wriggles is good when we're not winning the lane, he likes to get it on every single AD carry every single game, arguing it gives us better objective control and stronger laning, my argument being that it sacrifices pure damage when it comes to teamfights.
For the record I main supports and he mains AD carries. Someone was arguing with me about that on smashboards ~ a week ago. We were talking about AD Kennen and this was my damage analysis: You're blowing PD out of proportion in terms of how much it ups your AS.
Uhg, fine, let's take level 11 Kennen with maxed W.
21 offensive build with AD ****, AD Marks and Quints, AS Glyphs.
2 dblades, wriggles, zerkers, PD
AS: 1.545
AD: 154
Crit chance: 30%
Crit damage: 323.4
W Proc damage: 123.2
Over 10 attacks, we have 154 * 7 + 323.4 * 3 + 123.2 * 2 = 2294.6 damage
10 attacks takes ~6.47 seconds
DPS: 354.65
2 dblades, IE, brawler's gloves, zerkers
AS: 1.165
AD: 211
Crit chance: 33%
Crit damage: 548.6
W Proc damage: 168.8
Over 10 attacks, we have 211 * 6.7 + 548.6 * 3.3 + 168.8 * 2 = 3561.68 damage
10 attacks takes ~8.58 seconds
DPS: 415.11
Also note that my IE build costs over 200 gold less.
I'm not saying there's no situation where you'd want PD + Wriggle's opening, but IE will outperform it from a damage perspective and by a lot too. So... they are trading 60 DPS for 30 armor and another 15% lifesteal + 10% movespeed + more warding, dragon and baron control? That's not exactly an easy choice to take one over the other, when a teamfight takes only 7 seconds of action, that's only an ignite's worth of damage difference. u mean 1267 dmg difference That's over the course of 10 attacks/ 8.5 secs, not the <7 he is implying a teamfight will take. Edit: It would be interesting to see the math when the duration is the constant, i.e. the fight lasts 10 seconds and you're able to attack constantly, and see the total damage output.
it's not interesting at all. only thing that changes is if the distinct time interval favors one attack speed over the other (essentially there's wasted DPS if you're last attack was say, 0.5 seconds ago vs. 0.1 seconds ago).
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EPT
