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Heed these two simple warnings. It will help make our GD a better place. Consider this fair notice to all users. Warning will be dished out this patch. Thanks. Neo, 31.01.12 |
On February 08 2012 01:43 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 01:33 Slayer91 wrote:On February 08 2012 01:07 TheYango wrote:On February 08 2012 01:04 Slayer91 wrote:
Why would you get a BF sword when you can get goodies like phage and hexdrinker and atmas though? If you're not taking advantage of her dominant laning or her fantastic late-game, then why are you playing Riven? Riven as a top laner is a lane dominator, and you can use your farm advantage from there to either shut out the game midgame, or build safer toward powerful lategame items. But Riven jungle is pretty average as far as control/ganks go, and only has good clear speed. So the only real compelling reason to have Riven over other junglers is for her to farm her powerful lategame items. I'm not a big proponent of "riven is good lategame". I don't understand why she is supposed to scale so good lategame. She isn't that tanky naturally so she has problems against high damage carries lategame while midgame when her base health is high enough and they don't have their items you just kill everyone. I mean, rivens damage is good lategame, but her skills don't exactly scale the way ads with an attack speed steriod and large crit do. I think her autoattacks can crit but in general her ratio ratios are pretty linear and I don't see why it's fantastically good lategame, since you rely somewhat on base damage of your spells. The reason I jungle riven is because I feel like her ganks are very strong her clearing is strong and she's very everything you want on a bruiser midgame, where dodging skillshots makes up for lack of some tankiness and ads don't do that much damage and tanks aren't unkillable so you can always try to kill them. Well... you're right in a sense. She doesn't scale like other AD carries, she scales completely differently but in a crazy way. She gets an extra scaling of .5 AD on autos, 2.1 AD if you land all 3 Qs (can be AoE), 1 AD on W, .6-1.8 on her R's active, and her Ult gives her 20% more AD, on top of all those base damages. If you can't math it out, THAT'S FUCKING INSANE. I can't think of any other champion that scales from AD on abilities that hard. So her autos hit hard because you have a fuckton of AD, plus extra hard if you have the passive up, and every ability hits absurdly hard as well. Her sustain and burst damage are both some of the highest in the game because of that. As for "naturally tanky", a 60/90/120/150/180 health shield that also scales 1:1 with AD means that you also get a crapton of Effective HP just from stacking damage, so there's no reason to ever build health outside of maybe some Doran's. When your shield can eat ~3 tower hits with no problem, why do you need to build tanky items? And when your mobility is as high as hers is, you shouldn't get hit at all ever unless you decide to go in on someone, because fuck slows you have 4 dashes. You can't think of Riven as "bruiser/tanky-dps #30", she builds completely differently.
Its just a matter of what is actually feasible. Bruta->BT is GREAT when you are in lane and can stay ahead of just about everyone in the game by abusing how good your lane is. But you will be behind in jungle, just by the very nature of the role. So you have to make do with more cost efficient items.
Like Bruta BT riven has 25+60 ad, + the 40 IF you can get it farmed (which, again, is really fucking hard in jungle) for 4337. Totaled up you get 85 ad, with anything else being gravy.
On the other hand, miniad riven gets 25 from bruta, 23 from wriggles, and 35 ad from hexdinker for 4737. Thats 83 ad, with more resists.
The difference isnt that bad, especially considering that your power curve will be a lot smoother with the second build simply because of how easy it is to peace-mail.
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OddOne cracking me up going manmode on Jarman in his soloq tragedy game.
Kills Nasus: "Die dog woof woof woof woof die"
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On February 08 2012 01:59 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 01:53 Senx wrote:
Think I need to stop top laning riven vs GP though, keep getting wrecked by herpa derp Q spam.. Maybe I need a full armor page or something i dunno it always feels so rough even when going shield first.. Put points into E. Dunno why everyone hates that spell, it's basically udyr shield at max rank which is one of the best spells in a game and it also is a mini flash. I'll take your point karma's shield is really good. AP carry without an ult is a good argument. (she's definitely not support, at least not in her current form).
yeah thats what I said. but gonna try extra armor quints next time
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United States47024 Posts
Leblanc also has very little AoE damage. She gets to go in, and burst down 1 person, and then does nothing.
Now consider that on lategame Riven, W->Q->Q->Q->W->R (with autos strung in between on high-value targets) does that to their entire team.
On February 08 2012 02:03 Two_DoWn wrote:
Its just a matter of what is actually feasible. Bruta->BT is GREAT when you are in lane and can stay ahead of just about everyone in the game by abusing how good your lane is. But you will be behind in jungle, just by the very nature of the role. So you have to make do with more cost efficient items.
Like Bruta BT riven has 25+60 ad, + the 40 IF you can get it farmed (which, again, is really fucking hard in jungle) for 4337. Totaled up you get 85 ad, with anything else being gravy.
On the other hand, miniad riven gets 25 from bruta, 23 from wriggles, and 35 ad from hexdinker for 4737. Thats 83 ad, with more resists.
The difference isnt that bad, especially considering that your power curve will be a lot smoother with the second build simply because of how easy it is to peace-mail.
If you're playing Riven jungle, you shouldn't be behind on farm. You should get enough farm from the lanes to be staying on-par or ahead of lanes on farm. Midgame you clean up farm and end up where you would have been in lane.
Like I said, I don't see what about Riven jungle is compelling if you're not going to build her for her lategame. If you're going to play the conventional mid-tier items off a normal jungler budget, there is no reason to pick her over junglers that have better ganks and better control.
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I would consider that more effective in early-midgame where everyone is somewhat squishy and usually a little bit close together. On riven high value targets will only be reached after you use your 3 Q's and E, and you need to save your W to stun them. Most of your AoE damage is acutally on people who have so much armour they barely feel it until you have LW.
You still worry about jumping into a whole team and you can get CC'd and stuff if you're not really tanky.
I mean, I've been strong lategame riven, but that's in the way where like their bruisers run off and you go and troll around killing their squishies. In midgame you can literally almost 1v3 or 1v4 people if you're really farmed. Your massive AoE can destroy everyone as opposed to certain targets who shouldn't be sticking that close together lategame.
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But anyway, im 99% sure you guys gonna get yelled at for starting this discussion in the GD thread and not the Riven thread.
I mean, I was just a poor bystander pulled into the maelstrom of discussion.
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On February 08 2012 02:03 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 01:43 Requizen wrote:On February 08 2012 01:33 Slayer91 wrote:On February 08 2012 01:07 TheYango wrote:On February 08 2012 01:04 Slayer91 wrote:
Why would you get a BF sword when you can get goodies like phage and hexdrinker and atmas though? If you're not taking advantage of her dominant laning or her fantastic late-game, then why are you playing Riven? Riven as a top laner is a lane dominator, and you can use your farm advantage from there to either shut out the game midgame, or build safer toward powerful lategame items. But Riven jungle is pretty average as far as control/ganks go, and only has good clear speed. So the only real compelling reason to have Riven over other junglers is for her to farm her powerful lategame items. I'm not a big proponent of "riven is good lategame". I don't understand why she is supposed to scale so good lategame. She isn't that tanky naturally so she has problems against high damage carries lategame while midgame when her base health is high enough and they don't have their items you just kill everyone. I mean, rivens damage is good lategame, but her skills don't exactly scale the way ads with an attack speed steriod and large crit do. I think her autoattacks can crit but in general her ratio ratios are pretty linear and I don't see why it's fantastically good lategame, since you rely somewhat on base damage of your spells. The reason I jungle riven is because I feel like her ganks are very strong her clearing is strong and she's very everything you want on a bruiser midgame, where dodging skillshots makes up for lack of some tankiness and ads don't do that much damage and tanks aren't unkillable so you can always try to kill them. Well... you're right in a sense. She doesn't scale like other AD carries, she scales completely differently but in a crazy way. She gets an extra scaling of .5 AD on autos, 2.1 AD if you land all 3 Qs (can be AoE), 1 AD on W, .6-1.8 on her R's active, and her Ult gives her 20% more AD, on top of all those base damages. If you can't math it out, THAT'S FUCKING INSANE. I can't think of any other champion that scales from AD on abilities that hard. So her autos hit hard because you have a fuckton of AD, plus extra hard if you have the passive up, and every ability hits absurdly hard as well. Her sustain and burst damage are both some of the highest in the game because of that. As for "naturally tanky", a 60/90/120/150/180 health shield that also scales 1:1 with AD means that you also get a crapton of Effective HP just from stacking damage, so there's no reason to ever build health outside of maybe some Doran's. When your shield can eat ~3 tower hits with no problem, why do you need to build tanky items? And when your mobility is as high as hers is, you shouldn't get hit at all ever unless you decide to go in on someone, because fuck slows you have 4 dashes. You can't think of Riven as "bruiser/tanky-dps #30", she builds completely differently. Its just a matter of what is actually feasible. Bruta->BT is GREAT when you are in lane and can stay ahead of just about everyone in the game by abusing how good your lane is. But you will be behind in jungle, just by the very nature of the role. So you have to make do with more cost efficient items. Like Bruta BT riven has 25+60 ad, + the 40 IF you can get it farmed (which, again, is really fucking hard in jungle) for 4337. Totaled up you get 85 ad, with anything else being gravy. On the other hand, miniad riven gets 25 from bruta, 23 from wriggles, and 35 ad from hexdinker for 4737. Thats 83 ad, with more resists. The difference isnt that bad, especially considering that your power curve will be a lot smoother with the second build simply because of how easy it is to peace-mail.
Well, sure. I can see the difference is pretty minimal.
However, I think the difference in opinion comes from this idea of power curves. With the "miniAD" build, you'll remain a viable thread at all points because you're not waiting on building one big item, right?
At that point, it depends on playstyle. I'd prefer to play her passively midgame, farming and only taking advantageous ganks or invading when I know I'm stronger or can steal with very little threat to myself. I'd continue the passivity until I had some big items and then rip the game apart. The "miniAD" build would be better if you're playing aggressively at all points, or fighting a bunch of fires and not able to rely on your team.
I'm not saying that item build is bad, per se. It works, and Riven is basically strong no matter what if you have any sort of AD, so you're not weak, I just prefer to play for the strong late game. And to that end, nothing quite matches the Navi build.
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United States47024 Posts
I should point out that I don't think jungle Riven is that good, largely because you either have to start stealing a lot of farm from lanes to get BT/GA, or you just end up as a shittier version of other junglers that actually function well off mid-tier items, and have stronger baseline ganking power/jungle control.
The only real reason I can see for playing it is if you want Riven's lategame but the enemy team put some hard lane top like Olaf that you don't feel you can handle and would rather farm jungle/steal lane farm.
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Meh, suit yourself. I feel like a powerhouse midgame but I get 4 shotted by that vayne or whatever later so I have to play conservatively. I also feel being "passive" midgame is impossible for a jungler. Midgame is when the jungler needs to be strong to steal buffs and fight for dragons and barons and stuff.
I also think Rivens baseless ganking and control is very strong. The only time I've ever felt weak in riven jungle is lategame or mid to late game.
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United States37500 Posts
On February 08 2012 02:12 Two_DoWn wrote:
But anyway, im 99% sure you guys gonna get yelled at for starting this discussion in the GD thread and not the Riven thread.
I mean, I was just a poor bystander pulled into the maelstrom of discussion.
Fuck yes.
You guys are doing it wrong.
I am disappoint.
-___________-
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Not trying to be a jerk, but I can't help myself. It's "piecemeal" when you're putting something together little by little 
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I've been thinking about Average Gatsby's "creep assist gold" idea for a while. I like the idea of trying to get some extra gold to supports, but I dislike the idea of forcing supports to auto-attack creeps to do so (it creates awkward coordination issues and penalizes melee supports like Alistar, Taric, Nunu, Leona etc.).
After posting my issues with the idea on another forum a regular there proposed an alternative. Create a utility mastery which grants gold when a nearby ally last-hits an enemy minion. The gold could still function like assist gold in order to avoid weird abuses (e.g. five man push squads).
This idea is obviously nascent, but I think it has considerable potential. I was curious what TL's thoughts were on the subject.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 08 2012 02:15 Slayer91 wrote:
Meh, suit yourself. I feel like a powerhouse midgame but I get 4 shotted by that vayne or whatever later so I have to play conservatively. I also feel being "passive" midgame is impossible for a jungler. Midgame is when the jungler needs to be strong to steal buffs and fight for dragons and barons and stuff.
I also think Rivens baseless ganking and control is very strong. The only time I've ever felt weak in riven jungle is lategame or mid to late game.
Someone has to be strong--it doesn't actually have to be the jungler. People just get in the convention of making the jungler carry the tempo midgame. There's nothing wrong though with having a strong teamfighting top laner go down and start tearing shit up while your late-game carry jungler sits top and pushes/farms.
It comes down to team-composition and what's most suitable to your picks/who's doing well.
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On February 08 2012 02:17 Seuss wrote:I've been thinking about Average Gatsby's "creep assist gold" idea for a while. I like the idea of trying to get some extra gold to supports, but I dislike the idea of forcing supports to auto-attack creeps to do so (it creates awkward coordination issues and penalizes melee supports like Alistar, Taric, Nunu, Leona etc.). After posting my issues with the idea on another forum a regular there proposed an alternative. Create a utility mastery which grants gold when a nearby ally last-hits an enemy minion. The gold could still function like assist gold in order to avoid weird abuses (e.g. five man push squads). This idea is obviously nascent, but I think it has considerable potential. I was curious what TL's thoughts were on the subject.
That would be a good idea.
I also think there should be a minion designator in the game, like instead of pinging a champ, you can mark a minion that you want as a support for the last hit and that way more efficiently farm without fighting the ad carry, because then they can just ignore that minion and focus on the other 5.
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On February 08 2012 02:17 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 02:15 Slayer91 wrote:
Meh, suit yourself. I feel like a powerhouse midgame but I get 4 shotted by that vayne or whatever later so I have to play conservatively. I also feel being "passive" midgame is impossible for a jungler. Midgame is when the jungler needs to be strong to steal buffs and fight for dragons and barons and stuff.
I also think Rivens baseless ganking and control is very strong. The only time I've ever felt weak in riven jungle is lategame or mid to late game. Someone has to be strong--it doesn't actually have to be the jungler. People just get in the convention of making the jungler carry the tempo midgame. There's nothing wrong though with having a strong teamfighting top laner go down and start tearing shit up while your late-game carry jungler sits top and pushes/farms. It comes down to team-composition and what's most suitable to your picks/who's doing well.
By that argument, better to just have your lategame carry lane top by your argument. I would probably agree riven is better off top, but I still think riven from top should be picked to come down around 20 minutes and previously for dragon fights and destroy, instead of split push for another 10 minutes to get items.
Sorry neo, hah. We just got dragged into it so fast.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 08 2012 02:17 Seuss wrote:I've been thinking about Average Gatsby's "creep assist gold" idea for a while. I like the idea of trying to get some extra gold to supports, but I dislike the idea of forcing supports to auto-attack creeps to do so (it creates awkward coordination issues and penalizes melee supports like Alistar, Taric, Nunu, Leona etc.). After posting my issues with the idea on another forum a regular there proposed an alternative. Create a utility mastery which grants gold when a nearby ally last-hits an enemy minion. The gold could still function like assist gold in order to avoid weird abuses (e.g. five man push squads). This idea is obviously nascent, but I think it has considerable potential. I was curious what TL's thoughts were on the subject.
Honestly, people just need to learn how to properly assign support CS.
A support that actually gets to finish a game with 50-ish CS is really strong---the 1000 gold turns into a lot of stuff for a support, and wouldn't be another big item for a carry anyway. People just need to be better about finding good times for support to GET that gold. 90% of the time they just yell at the support for taking ANY cs, and the other 10% of the time, the support is taking gold at the wrong time when the carries actually need it for something soon.
On February 08 2012 02:20 Slayer91 wrote:
By that argument, better to just have your lategame carry lane top by your argument. I would probably agree riven is better off top, but I still think riven from top should be picked to come down around 20 minutes and previously for dragon fights and destroy, instead of split push for another 10 minutes to get items.
Sorry neo, hah. We just got dragged into it so fast.
Ehh, top lane matchups are fragile enough that it can be reasonable to have the carry take the jungle early while you pick a top laner that can win top, and then have the jungler farm once he's got sustain-y shit like Wriggle's and the enemy top laner is behind enough that he can't stop your farm.
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United States37500 Posts
On February 08 2012 02:20 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 02:17 TheYango wrote:On February 08 2012 02:15 Slayer91 wrote:
Meh, suit yourself. I feel like a powerhouse midgame but I get 4 shotted by that vayne or whatever later so I have to play conservatively. I also feel being "passive" midgame is impossible for a jungler. Midgame is when the jungler needs to be strong to steal buffs and fight for dragons and barons and stuff.
I also think Rivens baseless ganking and control is very strong. The only time I've ever felt weak in riven jungle is lategame or mid to late game. Someone has to be strong--it doesn't actually have to be the jungler. People just get in the convention of making the jungler carry the tempo midgame. There's nothing wrong though with having a strong teamfighting top laner go down and start tearing shit up while your late-game carry jungler sits top and pushes/farms. It comes down to team-composition and what's most suitable to your picks/who's doing well. By that argument, better to just have your lategame carry lane top by your argument. I would probably agree riven is better off top, but I still think riven from top should be picked to come down around 20 minutes and previously for dragon fights and destroy, instead of split push for another 10 minutes to get items. Sorry neo, hah. We just got dragged into it so fast.
It's ok, just don't do it again!
but srsly, you guys were talking playstyle of Riven, there's no correct way per se and I can see both your points and Yango's. Should have gone in Riven thread for sure.
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On February 08 2012 02:22 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 02:17 Seuss wrote:I've been thinking about Average Gatsby's "creep assist gold" idea for a while. I like the idea of trying to get some extra gold to supports, but I dislike the idea of forcing supports to auto-attack creeps to do so (it creates awkward coordination issues and penalizes melee supports like Alistar, Taric, Nunu, Leona etc.). After posting my issues with the idea on another forum a regular there proposed an alternative. Create a utility mastery which grants gold when a nearby ally last-hits an enemy minion. The gold could still function like assist gold in order to avoid weird abuses (e.g. five man push squads). This idea is obviously nascent, but I think it has considerable potential. I was curious what TL's thoughts were on the subject. Honestly, people just need to learn how to properly assign support CS. A support that actually gets to finish a game with 50-ish CS is really strong---the 1000 gold turns into a lot of stuff for a support, and wouldn't be another big item for a carry anyway. People just need to be better about finding good times for support to GET that gold. 90% of the time they just yell at the support for taking ANY cs, and the other 10% of the time, the support is taking gold at the wrong time when the carries actually need it for something soon.
I've started being like "go ahead and take some cs for your philo" in solo q since quite some time when the lane is going okay. Actually my gut says when behind it would make even more sense.
Sacrificing like 10cs on an AD so that your support has his philo for one long time of "If I go back now my AD will get shat own 1n2" for the other side seems so totally worth it.
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Crazy level 1 fight TSM/SK scrim.
TSM: Lee, Soraka, MF, GP, Sion
SK: Ali, Trist, Ryze, Voli, Shyv
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EPT
