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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On February 07 2012 23:55 Cloud wrote: No way, riven is a beast in jungle. You don't even need wriggles. Just get some dblades and you'll be clearing jungle faster than most other champs. Even at lvl 1 ? I've always struggle, but well I never used her in the new jungle. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
On February 07 2012 23:40 freestalker wrote: question. I used to play in EU before the server split. I played a bit even after, but then I had a break, now I came back and there's literally noone in the liquidparty channel. there're like 4-5 people left. Did everyone move to EU west or to NA? I was told there is a free account transfer to EU west. Thanks in advance. There's usually ~40+ people in LP EU(W). No idea about EUNE. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
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ManyCookies
1164 Posts
Played a match with three Riot members last night. Went Dunkmaster Yi. Died at wolves at level 9 after a (successful) gank, was reported for dehydration. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On February 08 2012 00:04 Slayer91 wrote: Riven is pretty strong in the jungle but has trouble adjusting to farmed ad carries in late midgame compared to the standard junglers who can get randuins/frozen heart instead of hybrid damage items. Eh, my "adjustment" is to do my usual build, get a BFS, and just kill everything in the mid game. She's pretty fast for clearing, you can even steal Wraiths every now and then. 1-2 DBlades into Merc's/BT/GA is just as viable in the Jungle as it is in lane, especially if you get a couple ganks off. And her ganks can be scary good. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
Generally yeah, you kill everyone midgame, but you definitely have some troubles that other junglers don't have to deal with. I guess lee sin does, if he doesn't rush warmogs. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
Basically what I'm trying to say is that she snowballs really hard, but still remains competitive if she gets pushed into a passive/even situation. I wouldn't label her as my top jungler, as you're right and she does have some troubles, but she's perfectly workable. Actually, if I get pushed into an even situation and not getting kills left and right, I go BFS->GA, skipping the rest of BT until later. It really depends on your team, whether you can afford to be a bit squishier or need the resists. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On February 08 2012 01:04 Slayer91 wrote: Why would you get a BF sword when you can get goodies like phage and hexdrinker and atmas though? If you're not taking advantage of her dominant laning or her fantastic late-game, then why are you playing Riven? Riven as a top laner is a lane dominator, and you can use your farm advantage from there to either shut out the game midgame, or build safer toward powerful lategame items. But Riven jungle is pretty average as far as control/ganks go, and only has good clear speed. So the only real compelling reason to have Riven over other junglers is for her to farm her powerful lategame items. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On February 08 2012 01:04 Slayer91 wrote: Why would you get a BF sword when you can get goodies like phage and hexdrinker and atmas though? Because Riven IS the AD champion. While you can do... ok building those "tanky-dps" items, you're missing out on the point of Riven. Her main strength is her absurd, out of control scaling. Ignoring that is like... not building WotA on Kennen to take advantage of free Ability damage for free healing. Building Phage and what not would be great if she was any other "bruiser" champ, but she's not. Edit: we actually had a good discussion in the GP thread. You don't jungle GP for ganks and control, you jungle him because he can jungle, give the lane to someone else, and still come out as a mid/late game powerhouse. He has an easier time because of free gold from Q, but the same idea goes with Riven. She's better in lane with higher farm, and you don't bring her to be a gank machine, but she still can reach that Instant Win late game setting from the jungle, so why the hell not? | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On February 08 2012 01:07 TheYango wrote: If you're not taking advantage of her dominant laning or her fantastic late-game, then why are you playing Riven? Riven as a top laner is a lane dominator, and you can use your farm advantage from there to either shut out the game midgame, or build safer toward powerful lategame items. But Riven jungle is pretty average as far as control/ganks go, and only has good clear speed. So the only real compelling reason to have Riven over other junglers is for her to farm her powerful lategame items. I'm not a big proponent of "riven is good lategame". I don't understand why she is supposed to scale so good lategame. She isn't that tanky naturally so she has problems against high damage carries lategame while midgame when her base health is high enough and they don't have their items you just kill everyone. I mean, rivens damage is good lategame, but her skills don't exactly scale the way ads with an attack speed steriod and large crit do. I think her autoattacks can crit but in general her ratio ratios are pretty linear and I don't see why it's fantastically good lategame, since you rely somewhat on base damage of your spells. The reason I jungle riven is because I feel like her ganks are very strong her clearing is strong and she's very everything you want on a bruiser midgame, where dodging skillshots makes up for lack of some tankiness and ads don't do that much damage and tanks aren't unkillable so you can always try to kill them. All the items I mentioned are AD items that gives you AD cost effectively with defensive stats. How do they not scale well with riven? And where's this magical great late game scaling? Sure her auto attacks hit a lot harder but then you have the problem every melee has which is hitting lots of auto attacks in melee range without dying. Most of the time you get a few auto hits and a few abilities in there, not like ranged ADs who have massive attack speed with range high AD and crit all 3 combined, riven just has high AD. Can you find me tournament games where riven is destroying people lategame? Because I haven't seen them if there are. To me riven is extremely strong early game, that's why her laning is strong, and she has the scaling to keep up midgame, but not the multiplicative scaling to keep up late game. Sure her passive works with crit I think, but you won't get that much crit and even then crit doesn't work on her abilities. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On February 08 2012 01:33 Slayer91 wrote: I'm not a big proponent of "riven is good lategame". I don't understand why she is supposed to scale so good lategame. She isn't that tanky naturally so she has problems against high damage carries lategame while midgame when her base health is high enough and they don't have their items you just kill everyone. I mean, rivens damage is good lategame, but her skills don't exactly scale the way ads with an attack speed steriod and large crit do. I think her autoattacks can crit but in general her ratio ratios are pretty linear and I don't see why it's fantastically good lategame, since you rely somewhat on base damage of your spells. The reason I jungle riven is because I feel like her ganks are very strong her clearing is strong and she's very everything you want on a bruiser midgame, where dodging skillshots makes up for lack of some tankiness and ads don't do that much damage and tanks aren't unkillable so you can always try to kill them. Well... you're right in a sense. She doesn't scale like other AD carries, she scales completely differently but in a crazy way. She gets an extra scaling of .5 AD on autos, 2.1 AD if you land all 3 Qs (can be AoE), 1 AD on W, .6-1.8 on her R's active, and her Ult gives her 20% more AD, on top of all those base damages. If you can't math it out, THAT'S FUCKING INSANE. I can't think of any other champion that scales from AD on abilities that hard. So her autos hit hard because you have a fuckton of AD, plus extra hard if you have the passive up, and every ability hits absurdly hard as well. Her sustain and burst damage are both some of the highest in the game because of that. As for "naturally tanky", a 60/90/120/150/180 health shield that also scales 1:1 with AD means that you also get a crapton of Effective HP just from stacking damage, so there's no reason to ever build health outside of maybe some Doran's. When your shield can eat ~3 tower hits with no problem, why do you need to build tanky items? And when your mobility is as high as hers is, you shouldn't get hit at all ever unless you decide to go in on someone, because fuck slows you have 4 dashes. You can't think of Riven as "bruiser/tanky-dps #30", she builds completely differently. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
Also, building all AD items is NOT normal, it's more like smashes jarvan build. Yeah, I started maxing shield second on riven, but it scales with resists, more so than AD, and cost efficient resists+AD and cooldown reduction (brutalizer) are the ways to get more out of your mobility and shield. Look what items I'm building? A phage is nice because there's this thing called CC that gets casted on you and having some slow if you don't have red buff (ad carries always feel self entitled so you don't get it that often) is kinda nice. Also you kinda want buffer HP early game against AP carries and such when you need to tank dragon and your shield isn't max rank. Also, according to your sig, by extension you shouldn't take my ideas lightly! Also, Karmas shield scales 1:1 with AP which is cheaper and also scales damage 1:1, and she's considered a pretty terrible champ. Even though its the same concept of "Damage stats giving your survivability". | ||
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Senx
Sweden5901 Posts
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On February 08 2012 01:53 Senx wrote: Think I need to stop top laning riven vs GP though, keep getting wrecked by herpa derp Q spam.. Maybe I need a full armor page or something i dunno it always feels so rough even when going shield first.. Put points into E. Dunno why everyone hates that spell, it's basically udyr shield at max rank which is one of the best spells in a game and it also is a mini flash. I'll take your point karma's shield is really good. AP carry without an ult is a good argument. (she's definitely not support, at least not in her current form). | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
As for the AD LeBlanc comparison, it's not quite the same. LeBlanc, being a caster, is limited by mana and high cooldowns. Riven's CDs are very short, and she has no costs on anything. If you dodge LeBlanc's chain and survive her burst, she's nothing. Conversely, even if you dodge Riven's kit, she can still auto you for high damage with her AD and then has her abilities ready in the next few seconds anyway. The other big difference, like I said, is that LeBlanc has no defensiveness, whereas building damage gives Riven free defensiveness through her shield. So focusing LeBlanc makes her dead and useless lategame, while Riven with her standard build can get focused, take those hits, and still fight and put out the same high damage. But seriously, I'm not as good at putting it into words. Go look up Navi's guide and posts, the math is pretty close but AD items + GA is what you should be going for. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
You need to maintain a power curve. Nobodies trying to claim that a bunch of cheap effective items is ideal for an 8k riven gold build. Also note you'll be behind in levels and gold meaning you have less tankiness from levels and less skill points into E which means you need to be MORE tanky. And the reason leblanc isn't that great lategame is not because of her high cooldowns. If you can 1 combo their AD/AP carry nobody cares if you have to wait 8 seconds for the next 1 combo. It's mostly because trying to get past a tank line with fed carries as leblanc is next to impossible because of cc. Riven has a little bit less of a problem there because she's more tanky but with her shield CD like 6 seconds you can easily be bursted down by spammable auto hits etc. (sure GA might activate but if AD carry 4 shots you in 1 second who really cares? | ||
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Schnake
Germany2819 Posts
And thanks Wetty for the detailed explanation! Much appreciated.  | ||
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