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United States47024 Posts
On February 01 2012 08:14 Shikyo wrote:
im playing with shen and wtf I thought Q heals you if you lasthit with it but it doesnt?=
They put that in with that big PTR Shen buff, but they never rolled it out onto live.
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On February 01 2012 08:14 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 08:05 Seuss wrote:On February 01 2012 07:34 Two_DoWn wrote:
Optimally played Ezreal is on the same level as any other optimally played carry.
Of course, optimally played Ezreal means no Triforce and no mana items- you hit every skillshot and calculate your mana perfectly so that you are able to get as much damage as possible out of your mana pool.
Which is, frankly, impossible. Not to mention optimal corki, which involves the same hypothetical mana mastery, is still better than optimal Ezreal.
But in a tournament game, relying on being better than your opponent is suicide, especially when 90% corki, sivir, cait, graves, or vayne is about 1000000000000000000000000000% better than 90% ezreal. I dislike this kind of talk when it isn't backed up by math and/or clear scenarios demonstrating the point. As far as I am aware no one, not on these forums or reddit or elsewhere, has actually sat down and methodically done the math on Ezreal (if someone has, awesome! That source should be included in this discussion). Until said math is done such specific statements are essentially no more than unproven hypotheses. They may be founded in observations and could possibly be correct, but they have yet to been proven or corroborated. Worse, it's these sorts of statements which contribute to the substantial metagame/champion selection inertia we often note and bemoan, as they deter experimentation by asserting authority where there is none. We really should be careful to avoid making them for these reasons. Generalizations are fine and it isn't wrong to steer inexperienced or competitive players away from Ezreal, but if we're going to start talking about "optimals" we need to avoid presuming we know more than we do. My point was more "it doesnt fucking matter if you try to argue a champ when played optimally just as good as another optimally played champ because it is impossible to actually play that out." And I dont need mathcraft to actually come to that conclusion. It is physically impossible to play any character in any sort of optimal way. Instead, we are stuck with imperfect demonstrations. And my point was simply imperfect ezreal is inferior currently to imperfect *insert ranged ad here*
That may have been your main point but in the middle of your post you make the assertion that optimal ezreal < optimal corki and that optimal ezreal = optimal any other carry even though you have done no mathcraft to reach those conclusions. This is exactly Seuss's point. Don't go making claims about things you don't know (I.E. optimally mathcrafted carry DPS) when you're saying stuff that you really do know (as a high elo player about how carries *really* play out). It's not only unnecessary but also spreads ideas as truth when we don't know if they're true or not.
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On February 01 2012 08:14 Shikyo wrote:
im playing with shen and wtf I thought Q heals you if you lasthit with it but it doesnt?=
You can hover above the skills icons to have description btw.
And welcome to the LoL forum since you look new!
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On February 01 2012 08:26 rwrzr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 08:14 Shikyo wrote:
im playing with shen and wtf I thought Q heals you if you lasthit with it but it doesnt?= LoL 1 - Shikyo 0
lol it made me go 0-4 in lane E_E Next game I need to Q early and then auto to lasthit -_-
On February 01 2012 08:30 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 08:14 Shikyo wrote:
im playing with shen and wtf I thought Q heals you if you lasthit with it but it doesnt?= They put that in with that big PTR Shen buff, but they never rolled it out onto live.
Allright that makes sense because I was certain I read that somewhere
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On February 01 2012 08:27 sob3k wrote:
I was looking today and am dissapointed because there are only 4 really viable champs for a "Spin to Win" team:
Kat
Trynd
Garen
Wukong
Lame. We need spinning AD carry
Perhaps you could run xin or jax but their spinningness in not nearly as good. Maybe Rammus, he spins on a different axis so that might be cool.
EDIT: renekton spins a bit
The other day I was laning as Cass against a Katarina and was wondering, how am I supposed to stun her with my ult when she's spinning? Well I figured it was worth a shot (should be a 50% chance if I ult randomly), but I missed and then died.
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On February 01 2012 08:14 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 08:05 Seuss wrote:On February 01 2012 07:34 Two_DoWn wrote:
Optimally played Ezreal is on the same level as any other optimally played carry.
Of course, optimally played Ezreal means no Triforce and no mana items- you hit every skillshot and calculate your mana perfectly so that you are able to get as much damage as possible out of your mana pool.
Which is, frankly, impossible. Not to mention optimal corki, which involves the same hypothetical mana mastery, is still better than optimal Ezreal.
But in a tournament game, relying on being better than your opponent is suicide, especially when 90% corki, sivir, cait, graves, or vayne is about 1000000000000000000000000000% better than 90% ezreal. I dislike this kind of talk when it isn't backed up by math and/or clear scenarios demonstrating the point. As far as I am aware no one, not on these forums or reddit or elsewhere, has actually sat down and methodically done the math on Ezreal (if someone has, awesome! That source should be included in this discussion). Until said math is done such specific statements are essentially no more than unproven hypotheses. They may be founded in observations and could possibly be correct, but they have yet to been proven or corroborated. Worse, it's these sorts of statements which contribute to the substantial metagame/champion selection inertia we often note and bemoan, as they deter experimentation by asserting authority where there is none. We really should be careful to avoid making them for these reasons. Generalizations are fine and it isn't wrong to steer inexperienced or competitive players away from Ezreal, but if we're going to start talking about "optimals" we need to avoid presuming we know more than we do. My point was more "it doesnt fucking matter if you try to argue a champ when played optimally just as good as another optimally played champ because it is impossible to actually play that out." And I dont need mathcraft to actually come to that conclusion. It is physically impossible to play any character in any sort of optimal way. Instead, we are stuck with imperfect demonstrations. And my point was simply imperfect ezreal is inferior currently to imperfect *insert ranged ad here*
I'm not objecting to your conclusion, I'm objecting to the fact that you heavily implied the existence of math and community knowledge regarding Ezreal's optimal play that doesn't exist.
In your original post you stated:- Optimally played Ezreal is equal to the optimal play of any other ranged AD.
- Optimally played Ezreal means no Triforce.
- Optimally played Ezreal means no mana items.
- Optimally played Ezreal means calculating mana perfectly.
- Optimally played Corki is better than optimally played Ezreal.
Those statements all allude to an authority that doesn't exist. Who decided that Triforce wasn't a part of Ezreal's optimal play? Who did the math behind Ezreal's perfect mana usage? Who compared Corki and Ezreal mathematically to determine Corki was better? Who even defined what "better" even meant in the comparison? The person who did the math on this and can answer all these questions is, at the moment, imaginary.
It's misleading and that's why I objected. Your conclusion is irrelevant to me, I'm concerned with the impressions you're leaving on the community and the way this sort of "appeal to non-existent authoritative math" affects our discourse.
If you think I'm being unfair I understand. I'm an ElitistJerk alumnus, and my habits and preferences emerge from my experiences as a part of that heavily moderated and focused community.
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On February 01 2012 08:38 danana wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 08:27 sob3k wrote:
I was looking today and am dissapointed because there are only 4 really viable champs for a "Spin to Win" team:
Kat
Trynd
Garen
Wukong
Lame. We need spinning AD carry
Perhaps you could run xin or jax but their spinningness in not nearly as good. Maybe Rammus, he spins on a different axis so that might be cool.
EDIT: renekton spins a bit The other day I was laning as Cass against a Katarina and was wondering, how am I supposed to stun her with my ult when she's spinning? Well I figured it was worth a shot (should be a 50% chance if I ult randomly), but I missed and then died.
This is actually interesting, because the champions face should be where it first was before the spin, the game can calculate a spinning hit box like that. You should go into a practice game and test it out because I'm pretty sure you just missed your ult on kats face and it had nothing to do with spinning.
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Your points:
Optimal Ez is about equal to any other simply because he is indeed playable, (IE not eve status). Play him optimally (never miss a q, ect) and he should be roughly equal to any other carry. Do I have mathmatical evidence? No. Do I really need mathmatical evidence to state that if you play a champion THE BEST IT IS CONCEIVABLE for someone to play that he would have strong points that would put him on par with other champs? I think that is fair, especially considering that Ezreal does have strong points. Would he be equal late game with someone like vayne? No, but his early mid game- if you never missed a q? I think that would be quite powerful.
No triforce is a Chaox/Doublelift conclusion I agree with. It has a little bit of a lot of stats that are useful for Ezreal, especially the mid game. However, as the game goes on its power drops off. I very well admit that playing Ezreal optimally means that you have to get triforce for the midgame. But if that is the case, then my original premise was wrong and Ezreal, when played optimally, does in fact suck balls compared to other ad carries.
No mana/perfect mana control- the reason you get triforce is for the mana and sheen proc. Any other stats that you want are better itemized elsewhere. Or you could just get blue buff and never run out of spells. Again- I lifted this from Double/Chaox- if you are able manage your mana in such a way that you are able to do everything you need to do in a fight, IE will be a higher amount of damage than Trinity. I dont have that math, but if the 2 people who are paid to play the game and know these things tell me that IE does more damage than Trinity, I will believe them.
As for corki vs ezreal- everything ezreal does corki does better. I would expect that differential to carry over.
But no, I do not have math. Nor do I have any use for it in a hypothetical thought experiment that would be impossible in real life. It would be like mathcrafting the outcome of the superbowl if everyone played optimally. It just makes no fucking sense.
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Just saying but it's impossible to never miss a Q. Even if you aim the Q perfectly, it can still be dodged by various champions, or blocked by other champions. You can't just state in a vacuum that if you land every Q he's imba because it's impossible to land them all - that's out of your hands sometimes.
Also what corki doesn't do as effectively is lower the DPS of the opposing AD carry. Making the ASPD of them go from 2.0 to 1.2 for instance is very very significant for your entire team.
It's no surprise to me if IE deals more damage than Trinity because Trinity is mainly a utility item whereas IE is purely damage. How do you think you're going to be able to factor in the effect the increased movement speed has, or perhaps the slow? Maybe the proc makes that one Q you land kill them when with IE it wouldn't have?
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On February 01 2012 08:23 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 07:00 overt wrote:On February 01 2012 06:08 Slayer91 wrote:On February 01 2012 03:59 Noocta wrote:On February 01 2012 03:52 Shiv. wrote:On February 01 2012 03:48 Noocta wrote:On February 01 2012 03:24 Two_DoWn wrote:
Ez is also a really weak lane. Any pusher is gonna give him fits, as well as Cait (but cait does do that to every ad carry, so w/e) Ezreal shit on Cait oO Just play agressive, she don't even do half your damage after lvl 3 lol If you have no clue what you are talking about, please refrain from talking at all. Tell me what Cait can do if you jump on her agressively after she use her Q. Specialy since cait players usualy stay near the bottom bush becuase of her passive, so minions are less a problem. But heh.. it can be. I usualy don't have a problem laning against cait as Ezreal. Always felt she's the easiest match up of ez. :/ Ez was always the classic "cait counter" from all top level players. You'll note he stopped being played when cait stopped being picked. I really hate people flaming someone over something that is highly debated as if it's general knowledge. He wasn't a Cait counter. He can just farm in lane because of the range on his Q. With proper positioning the lane still favors Caitlyn but Ez was capable of farming against a Caitlyn while other champions such as Ashe, Corki, or Vayne had difficulty farming against an aggressive Caitlyn in lane. Cait has a harder time zoning Ez than other ADs because of Q harass and the fact that Ez can still farm with Q. But Ezreal is not a counter to Caitlyn nor does he win the lane and he especially doesn't shit on her as Noocta said. Caitlyn is really strong early so most ADs just had to survive the beginning of the game without being fucked over. Almost every AD can survive that lane if they have a good support player and then when the lane phase is over you have an AD carry that's much stronger than Caitlyn simply because of how bad Caitlyn scales. What? You can farm with max range Q and then you pick your time to jump on caitlyn. You have insane steriods and way more damage with your Q and R and E base damage there's no possible way she can trade with that.
Except that you're not considering supports at all or the fact that Caitlyn has great brush control with her traps. Ez is going to jump on a Caitlyn and take creep agro, Cait autos, and damage from your support? Why? By jump on her I'm assuming you mean E into her which is fine but if anything goes wrong at all he's fucked. There's no way Ez+most supports are going to win a trade by Ez jumping on Caitlyn+her support+her creep wave. (edit: Caitlyn is usually going to have a bigger creep wave than Ez too, if Ez has a creep advantage then Caitlyn is playing the lane all wrong)
The point is, saying that Ezreal is a Caitlyn counter is wrong because Ezreal can't deny Caitlyn farm and isn't going to just straight up kill Caitlyn either unless she plays poorly. To me, a counter isn't someone who can farm okay and maybe win a few trades. A counter is someone who actively denies you farm or can kill you if you try to farm. Ezreal can't do either of these things to Caitlyn in a duo lane. I'm not even sure Ez can do either of those in a solo lane.
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On February 01 2012 09:29 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 08:23 Slayer91 wrote:On February 01 2012 07:00 overt wrote:On February 01 2012 06:08 Slayer91 wrote:On February 01 2012 03:59 Noocta wrote:On February 01 2012 03:52 Shiv. wrote:On February 01 2012 03:48 Noocta wrote:On February 01 2012 03:24 Two_DoWn wrote:
Ez is also a really weak lane. Any pusher is gonna give him fits, as well as Cait (but cait does do that to every ad carry, so w/e) Ezreal shit on Cait oO Just play agressive, she don't even do half your damage after lvl 3 lol If you have no clue what you are talking about, please refrain from talking at all. Tell me what Cait can do if you jump on her agressively after she use her Q. Specialy since cait players usualy stay near the bottom bush becuase of her passive, so minions are less a problem. But heh.. it can be. I usualy don't have a problem laning against cait as Ezreal. Always felt she's the easiest match up of ez. :/ Ez was always the classic "cait counter" from all top level players. You'll note he stopped being played when cait stopped being picked. I really hate people flaming someone over something that is highly debated as if it's general knowledge. He wasn't a Cait counter. He can just farm in lane because of the range on his Q. With proper positioning the lane still favors Caitlyn but Ez was capable of farming against a Caitlyn while other champions such as Ashe, Corki, or Vayne had difficulty farming against an aggressive Caitlyn in lane. Cait has a harder time zoning Ez than other ADs because of Q harass and the fact that Ez can still farm with Q. But Ezreal is not a counter to Caitlyn nor does he win the lane and he especially doesn't shit on her as Noocta said. Caitlyn is really strong early so most ADs just had to survive the beginning of the game without being fucked over. Almost every AD can survive that lane if they have a good support player and then when the lane phase is over you have an AD carry that's much stronger than Caitlyn simply because of how bad Caitlyn scales. What? You can farm with max range Q and then you pick your time to jump on caitlyn. You have insane steriods and way more damage with your Q and R and E base damage there's no possible way she can trade with that. Except that you're not considering supports at all or the fact that Caitlyn has great brush control with her traps. Ez is going to jump on a Caitlyn and take creep agro, Cait autos, and damage from your support? Why? By jump on her I'm assuming you mean E into her which is fine but if anything goes wrong at all he's fucked. There's no way Ez+most supports are going to win a trade by Ez jumping on Caitlyn+her support+her creep wave. (edit: Caitlyn is usually going to have a bigger creep wave than Ez too, if Ez has a creep advantage then Caitlyn is playing the lane all wrong) The point is, saying that Ezreal is a Caitlyn counter is wrong because Ezreal can't deny Caitlyn farm and isn't going to just straight up kill Caitlyn either unless she plays poorly. To me, a counter isn't someone who can farm okay and maybe win a few trades. A counter is someone who actively denies you farm or can kill you if you try to farm. Ezreal can't do either of these things to Caitlyn in a duo lane. I'm not even sure Ez can do either of those in a solo lane.
Btw the person you're responding to is 2200+ elo on EUW so keep that in mind.
Anyway I really think you're wrong in it that the opposing support does this or that before your support can react - they should both react just as fast in theory.
That Ez jump on Cait is actually a ton of burst and should force Cait to run very soon, generally she's not going to fight after being instabursted like 300+ HP.
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On February 01 2012 09:37 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 09:29 overt wrote:On February 01 2012 08:23 Slayer91 wrote:On February 01 2012 07:00 overt wrote:On February 01 2012 06:08 Slayer91 wrote:On February 01 2012 03:59 Noocta wrote:On February 01 2012 03:52 Shiv. wrote:On February 01 2012 03:48 Noocta wrote:On February 01 2012 03:24 Two_DoWn wrote:
Ez is also a really weak lane. Any pusher is gonna give him fits, as well as Cait (but cait does do that to every ad carry, so w/e) Ezreal shit on Cait oO Just play agressive, she don't even do half your damage after lvl 3 lol If you have no clue what you are talking about, please refrain from talking at all. Tell me what Cait can do if you jump on her agressively after she use her Q. Specialy since cait players usualy stay near the bottom bush becuase of her passive, so minions are less a problem. But heh.. it can be. I usualy don't have a problem laning against cait as Ezreal. Always felt she's the easiest match up of ez. :/ Ez was always the classic "cait counter" from all top level players. You'll note he stopped being played when cait stopped being picked. I really hate people flaming someone over something that is highly debated as if it's general knowledge. He wasn't a Cait counter. He can just farm in lane because of the range on his Q. With proper positioning the lane still favors Caitlyn but Ez was capable of farming against a Caitlyn while other champions such as Ashe, Corki, or Vayne had difficulty farming against an aggressive Caitlyn in lane. Cait has a harder time zoning Ez than other ADs because of Q harass and the fact that Ez can still farm with Q. But Ezreal is not a counter to Caitlyn nor does he win the lane and he especially doesn't shit on her as Noocta said. Caitlyn is really strong early so most ADs just had to survive the beginning of the game without being fucked over. Almost every AD can survive that lane if they have a good support player and then when the lane phase is over you have an AD carry that's much stronger than Caitlyn simply because of how bad Caitlyn scales. What? You can farm with max range Q and then you pick your time to jump on caitlyn. You have insane steriods and way more damage with your Q and R and E base damage there's no possible way she can trade with that. Except that you're not considering supports at all or the fact that Caitlyn has great brush control with her traps. Ez is going to jump on a Caitlyn and take creep agro, Cait autos, and damage from your support? Why? By jump on her I'm assuming you mean E into her which is fine but if anything goes wrong at all he's fucked. There's no way Ez+most supports are going to win a trade by Ez jumping on Caitlyn+her support+her creep wave. (edit: Caitlyn is usually going to have a bigger creep wave than Ez too, if Ez has a creep advantage then Caitlyn is playing the lane all wrong) The point is, saying that Ezreal is a Caitlyn counter is wrong because Ezreal can't deny Caitlyn farm and isn't going to just straight up kill Caitlyn either unless she plays poorly. To me, a counter isn't someone who can farm okay and maybe win a few trades. A counter is someone who actively denies you farm or can kill you if you try to farm. Ezreal can't do either of these things to Caitlyn in a duo lane. I'm not even sure Ez can do either of those in a solo lane. Btw the person you're responding to is 2200+ elo on EUW so keep that in mind. Anyway I really think you're wrong in it that the opposing support does this or that before your support can react - they should both react just as fast in theory. That Ez jump on Cait is actually a ton of burst and should force Cait to run very soon, generally she's not going to fight after being instabursted like 300+ HP.
Ok, think of doublelift playing Cait, and think of some EU scrub playing ez. Don't think EU scrub would ever beat doublelift cait as ez ever. Also, Cait would just push on you.
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On February 01 2012 08:44 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 08:14 Two_DoWn wrote:On February 01 2012 08:05 Seuss wrote:On February 01 2012 07:34 Two_DoWn wrote:
Optimally played Ezreal is on the same level as any other optimally played carry.
Of course, optimally played Ezreal means no Triforce and no mana items- you hit every skillshot and calculate your mana perfectly so that you are able to get as much damage as possible out of your mana pool.
Which is, frankly, impossible. Not to mention optimal corki, which involves the same hypothetical mana mastery, is still better than optimal Ezreal.
But in a tournament game, relying on being better than your opponent is suicide, especially when 90% corki, sivir, cait, graves, or vayne is about 1000000000000000000000000000% better than 90% ezreal. I dislike this kind of talk when it isn't backed up by math and/or clear scenarios demonstrating the point. As far as I am aware no one, not on these forums or reddit or elsewhere, has actually sat down and methodically done the math on Ezreal (if someone has, awesome! That source should be included in this discussion). Until said math is done such specific statements are essentially no more than unproven hypotheses. They may be founded in observations and could possibly be correct, but they have yet to been proven or corroborated. Worse, it's these sorts of statements which contribute to the substantial metagame/champion selection inertia we often note and bemoan, as they deter experimentation by asserting authority where there is none. We really should be careful to avoid making them for these reasons. Generalizations are fine and it isn't wrong to steer inexperienced or competitive players away from Ezreal, but if we're going to start talking about "optimals" we need to avoid presuming we know more than we do. My point was more "it doesnt fucking matter if you try to argue a champ when played optimally just as good as another optimally played champ because it is impossible to actually play that out." And I dont need mathcraft to actually come to that conclusion. It is physically impossible to play any character in any sort of optimal way. Instead, we are stuck with imperfect demonstrations. And my point was simply imperfect ezreal is inferior currently to imperfect *insert ranged ad here* I'm not objecting to your conclusion, I'm objecting to the fact that you heavily implied the existence of math and community knowledge regarding Ezreal's optimal play that doesn't exist. In your original post you stated: - Optimally played Ezreal is equal to the optimal play of any other ranged AD.
- Optimally played Ezreal means no Triforce.
- Optimally played Ezreal means no mana items.
- Optimally played Ezreal means calculating mana perfectly.
- Optimally played Corki is better than optimally played Ezreal.
Those statements all allude to an authority that doesn't exist. Who decided that Triforce wasn't a part of Ezreal's optimal play? Who did the math behind Ezreal's perfect mana usage? Who compared Corki and Ezreal mathematically to determine Corki was better? Who even defined what "better" even meant in the comparison? The person who did the math on this and can answer all these questions is, at the moment, imaginary. It's misleading and that's why I objected. Your conclusion is irrelevant to me, I'm concerned with the impressions you're leaving on the community and the way this sort of "appeal to non-existent authoritative math" affects our discourse. If you think I'm being unfair I understand. I'm an ElitistJerk alumnus, and my habits and preferences emerge from my experiences as a part of that heavily moderated and focused community.
I approve of the explanation of common logical fallacies in Two_Down's argument by Seuss.
However, I will say that my qualitative analysis of Corki v. Ezreal is that Corki's skillset/kit is easier to do damage with. That being said play Vayne.
Doing well as Vayne early means you snowball into mid- and late-game.
Doing well as Corki/Ezreal early means you snowball into mid-game and fall off late game (2 AP ratio dependant damage spells)
Doing poorly as Vayne early means you just need to farm mid-game and carry late game.
Doing poorly as Corki/Ezreal early means you need to farm through mid-game giving up your dominance to try and catch up
Vayne can fall back on the late-game carry status, but Corki/Ezreal cannot.
Games last ~20-25(?) minutes on average?
EDIT!!!!: FORGOT to mention all early game cheese AD rune ezreal build still more fun that Vayne/Corki.
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On February 01 2012 09:38 0123456789 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 09:37 Shikyo wrote:On February 01 2012 09:29 overt wrote:On February 01 2012 08:23 Slayer91 wrote:On February 01 2012 07:00 overt wrote:On February 01 2012 06:08 Slayer91 wrote:On February 01 2012 03:59 Noocta wrote:On February 01 2012 03:52 Shiv. wrote:On February 01 2012 03:48 Noocta wrote:On February 01 2012 03:24 Two_DoWn wrote:
Ez is also a really weak lane. Any pusher is gonna give him fits, as well as Cait (but cait does do that to every ad carry, so w/e) Ezreal shit on Cait oO Just play agressive, she don't even do half your damage after lvl 3 lol If you have no clue what you are talking about, please refrain from talking at all. Tell me what Cait can do if you jump on her agressively after she use her Q. Specialy since cait players usualy stay near the bottom bush becuase of her passive, so minions are less a problem. But heh.. it can be. I usualy don't have a problem laning against cait as Ezreal. Always felt she's the easiest match up of ez. :/ Ez was always the classic "cait counter" from all top level players. You'll note he stopped being played when cait stopped being picked. I really hate people flaming someone over something that is highly debated as if it's general knowledge. He wasn't a Cait counter. He can just farm in lane because of the range on his Q. With proper positioning the lane still favors Caitlyn but Ez was capable of farming against a Caitlyn while other champions such as Ashe, Corki, or Vayne had difficulty farming against an aggressive Caitlyn in lane. Cait has a harder time zoning Ez than other ADs because of Q harass and the fact that Ez can still farm with Q. But Ezreal is not a counter to Caitlyn nor does he win the lane and he especially doesn't shit on her as Noocta said. Caitlyn is really strong early so most ADs just had to survive the beginning of the game without being fucked over. Almost every AD can survive that lane if they have a good support player and then when the lane phase is over you have an AD carry that's much stronger than Caitlyn simply because of how bad Caitlyn scales. What? You can farm with max range Q and then you pick your time to jump on caitlyn. You have insane steriods and way more damage with your Q and R and E base damage there's no possible way she can trade with that. Except that you're not considering supports at all or the fact that Caitlyn has great brush control with her traps. Ez is going to jump on a Caitlyn and take creep agro, Cait autos, and damage from your support? Why? By jump on her I'm assuming you mean E into her which is fine but if anything goes wrong at all he's fucked. There's no way Ez+most supports are going to win a trade by Ez jumping on Caitlyn+her support+her creep wave. (edit: Caitlyn is usually going to have a bigger creep wave than Ez too, if Ez has a creep advantage then Caitlyn is playing the lane all wrong) The point is, saying that Ezreal is a Caitlyn counter is wrong because Ezreal can't deny Caitlyn farm and isn't going to just straight up kill Caitlyn either unless she plays poorly. To me, a counter isn't someone who can farm okay and maybe win a few trades. A counter is someone who actively denies you farm or can kill you if you try to farm. Ezreal can't do either of these things to Caitlyn in a duo lane. I'm not even sure Ez can do either of those in a solo lane. Btw the person you're responding to is 2200+ elo on EUW so keep that in mind. Anyway I really think you're wrong in it that the opposing support does this or that before your support can react - they should both react just as fast in theory. That Ez jump on Cait is actually a ton of burst and should force Cait to run very soon, generally she's not going to fight after being instabursted like 300+ HP. Ok, think of doublelift playing Cait, and think of some EU scrub playing ez. Don't think EU scrub would ever beat doublelift cait as ez ever. Also, Cait would just push on you.
ok done, now how about you think of chaox playing ez and doublelift playing cait. ? Why did you give such a retarded example anyway?
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On February 01 2012 09:37 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 09:29 overt wrote:On February 01 2012 08:23 Slayer91 wrote:On February 01 2012 07:00 overt wrote:On February 01 2012 06:08 Slayer91 wrote:On February 01 2012 03:59 Noocta wrote:On February 01 2012 03:52 Shiv. wrote:On February 01 2012 03:48 Noocta wrote:On February 01 2012 03:24 Two_DoWn wrote:
Ez is also a really weak lane. Any pusher is gonna give him fits, as well as Cait (but cait does do that to every ad carry, so w/e) Ezreal shit on Cait oO Just play agressive, she don't even do half your damage after lvl 3 lol If you have no clue what you are talking about, please refrain from talking at all. Tell me what Cait can do if you jump on her agressively after she use her Q. Specialy since cait players usualy stay near the bottom bush becuase of her passive, so minions are less a problem. But heh.. it can be. I usualy don't have a problem laning against cait as Ezreal. Always felt she's the easiest match up of ez. :/ Ez was always the classic "cait counter" from all top level players. You'll note he stopped being played when cait stopped being picked. I really hate people flaming someone over something that is highly debated as if it's general knowledge. He wasn't a Cait counter. He can just farm in lane because of the range on his Q. With proper positioning the lane still favors Caitlyn but Ez was capable of farming against a Caitlyn while other champions such as Ashe, Corki, or Vayne had difficulty farming against an aggressive Caitlyn in lane. Cait has a harder time zoning Ez than other ADs because of Q harass and the fact that Ez can still farm with Q. But Ezreal is not a counter to Caitlyn nor does he win the lane and he especially doesn't shit on her as Noocta said. Caitlyn is really strong early so most ADs just had to survive the beginning of the game without being fucked over. Almost every AD can survive that lane if they have a good support player and then when the lane phase is over you have an AD carry that's much stronger than Caitlyn simply because of how bad Caitlyn scales. What? You can farm with max range Q and then you pick your time to jump on caitlyn. You have insane steriods and way more damage with your Q and R and E base damage there's no possible way she can trade with that. Except that you're not considering supports at all or the fact that Caitlyn has great brush control with her traps. Ez is going to jump on a Caitlyn and take creep agro, Cait autos, and damage from your support? Why? By jump on her I'm assuming you mean E into her which is fine but if anything goes wrong at all he's fucked. There's no way Ez+most supports are going to win a trade by Ez jumping on Caitlyn+her support+her creep wave. (edit: Caitlyn is usually going to have a bigger creep wave than Ez too, if Ez has a creep advantage then Caitlyn is playing the lane all wrong) The point is, saying that Ezreal is a Caitlyn counter is wrong because Ezreal can't deny Caitlyn farm and isn't going to just straight up kill Caitlyn either unless she plays poorly. To me, a counter isn't someone who can farm okay and maybe win a few trades. A counter is someone who actively denies you farm or can kill you if you try to farm. Ezreal can't do either of these things to Caitlyn in a duo lane. I'm not even sure Ez can do either of those in a solo lane. Btw the person you're responding to is 2200+ elo on EUW so keep that in mind. Anyway I really think you're wrong in it that the opposing support does this or that before your support can react - they should both react just as fast in theory. That Ez jump on Cait is actually a ton of burst and should force Cait to run very soon, generally she's not going to fight after being instabursted like 300+ HP.
I'm also not that good with AD carries, (read: really bad) I'm just responding to what I observed as trends when cait was popular and what I heard streamers say. I saw Ez played ALL the time as soon as cait got popular, heard people painting him as good against caitlyn etc, and then as soon as caitlyn stopped being played people picked up corki again over ez, can someone explain?
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On February 01 2012 09:52 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 09:37 Shikyo wrote:On February 01 2012 09:29 overt wrote:On February 01 2012 08:23 Slayer91 wrote:On February 01 2012 07:00 overt wrote:On February 01 2012 06:08 Slayer91 wrote:On February 01 2012 03:59 Noocta wrote:On February 01 2012 03:52 Shiv. wrote:On February 01 2012 03:48 Noocta wrote:On February 01 2012 03:24 Two_DoWn wrote:
Ez is also a really weak lane. Any pusher is gonna give him fits, as well as Cait (but cait does do that to every ad carry, so w/e) Ezreal shit on Cait oO Just play agressive, she don't even do half your damage after lvl 3 lol If you have no clue what you are talking about, please refrain from talking at all. Tell me what Cait can do if you jump on her agressively after she use her Q. Specialy since cait players usualy stay near the bottom bush becuase of her passive, so minions are less a problem. But heh.. it can be. I usualy don't have a problem laning against cait as Ezreal. Always felt she's the easiest match up of ez. :/ Ez was always the classic "cait counter" from all top level players. You'll note he stopped being played when cait stopped being picked. I really hate people flaming someone over something that is highly debated as if it's general knowledge. He wasn't a Cait counter. He can just farm in lane because of the range on his Q. With proper positioning the lane still favors Caitlyn but Ez was capable of farming against a Caitlyn while other champions such as Ashe, Corki, or Vayne had difficulty farming against an aggressive Caitlyn in lane. Cait has a harder time zoning Ez than other ADs because of Q harass and the fact that Ez can still farm with Q. But Ezreal is not a counter to Caitlyn nor does he win the lane and he especially doesn't shit on her as Noocta said. Caitlyn is really strong early so most ADs just had to survive the beginning of the game without being fucked over. Almost every AD can survive that lane if they have a good support player and then when the lane phase is over you have an AD carry that's much stronger than Caitlyn simply because of how bad Caitlyn scales. What? You can farm with max range Q and then you pick your time to jump on caitlyn. You have insane steriods and way more damage with your Q and R and E base damage there's no possible way she can trade with that. Except that you're not considering supports at all or the fact that Caitlyn has great brush control with her traps. Ez is going to jump on a Caitlyn and take creep agro, Cait autos, and damage from your support? Why? By jump on her I'm assuming you mean E into her which is fine but if anything goes wrong at all he's fucked. There's no way Ez+most supports are going to win a trade by Ez jumping on Caitlyn+her support+her creep wave. (edit: Caitlyn is usually going to have a bigger creep wave than Ez too, if Ez has a creep advantage then Caitlyn is playing the lane all wrong) The point is, saying that Ezreal is a Caitlyn counter is wrong because Ezreal can't deny Caitlyn farm and isn't going to just straight up kill Caitlyn either unless she plays poorly. To me, a counter isn't someone who can farm okay and maybe win a few trades. A counter is someone who actively denies you farm or can kill you if you try to farm. Ezreal can't do either of these things to Caitlyn in a duo lane. I'm not even sure Ez can do either of those in a solo lane. Btw the person you're responding to is 2200+ elo on EUW so keep that in mind. Anyway I really think you're wrong in it that the opposing support does this or that before your support can react - they should both react just as fast in theory. That Ez jump on Cait is actually a ton of burst and should force Cait to run very soon, generally she's not going to fight after being instabursted like 300+ HP. I'm also not that good with AD carries, I'd just responding to what I observed as trends when cait was popular and what I heard streamers say. I saw Ez played ALL the time as soon as cait got popular, heard people painting him as good against caitlyn etc, and then as soon as caitlyn stopped being played people picked up corki again over ez, can someone explain?
Corki got buffed ;ööö
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I wouldn't write that off as the only reason people started playing him. Graves and sivir became more popular and corki has a lot of trouble with cait i'm pretty sure.
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On February 01 2012 09:13 SnK-Arcbound wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 08:38 danana wrote:On February 01 2012 08:27 sob3k wrote:
I was looking today and am dissapointed because there are only 4 really viable champs for a "Spin to Win" team:
Kat
Trynd
Garen
Wukong
Lame. We need spinning AD carry
Perhaps you could run xin or jax but their spinningness in not nearly as good. Maybe Rammus, he spins on a different axis so that might be cool.
EDIT: renekton spins a bit The other day I was laning as Cass against a Katarina and was wondering, how am I supposed to stun her with my ult when she's spinning? Well I figured it was worth a shot (should be a 50% chance if I ult randomly), but I missed and then died. This is actually interesting, because the champions face should be where it first was before the spin, the game can calculate a spinning hit box like that. You should go into a practice game and test it out because I'm pretty sure you just missed your ult on kats face and it had nothing to do with spinning.
its where they faced when they activated it, 100% sure.
garen is the same except he faces to where he walks.
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On February 01 2012 09:37 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 09:29 overt wrote:On February 01 2012 08:23 Slayer91 wrote:On February 01 2012 07:00 overt wrote:On February 01 2012 06:08 Slayer91 wrote:On February 01 2012 03:59 Noocta wrote:On February 01 2012 03:52 Shiv. wrote:On February 01 2012 03:48 Noocta wrote:On February 01 2012 03:24 Two_DoWn wrote:
Ez is also a really weak lane. Any pusher is gonna give him fits, as well as Cait (but cait does do that to every ad carry, so w/e) Ezreal shit on Cait oO Just play agressive, she don't even do half your damage after lvl 3 lol If you have no clue what you are talking about, please refrain from talking at all. Tell me what Cait can do if you jump on her agressively after she use her Q. Specialy since cait players usualy stay near the bottom bush becuase of her passive, so minions are less a problem. But heh.. it can be. I usualy don't have a problem laning against cait as Ezreal. Always felt she's the easiest match up of ez. :/ Ez was always the classic "cait counter" from all top level players. You'll note he stopped being played when cait stopped being picked. I really hate people flaming someone over something that is highly debated as if it's general knowledge. He wasn't a Cait counter. He can just farm in lane because of the range on his Q. With proper positioning the lane still favors Caitlyn but Ez was capable of farming against a Caitlyn while other champions such as Ashe, Corki, or Vayne had difficulty farming against an aggressive Caitlyn in lane. Cait has a harder time zoning Ez than other ADs because of Q harass and the fact that Ez can still farm with Q. But Ezreal is not a counter to Caitlyn nor does he win the lane and he especially doesn't shit on her as Noocta said. Caitlyn is really strong early so most ADs just had to survive the beginning of the game without being fucked over. Almost every AD can survive that lane if they have a good support player and then when the lane phase is over you have an AD carry that's much stronger than Caitlyn simply because of how bad Caitlyn scales. What? You can farm with max range Q and then you pick your time to jump on caitlyn. You have insane steriods and way more damage with your Q and R and E base damage there's no possible way she can trade with that. Except that you're not considering supports at all or the fact that Caitlyn has great brush control with her traps. Ez is going to jump on a Caitlyn and take creep agro, Cait autos, and damage from your support? Why? By jump on her I'm assuming you mean E into her which is fine but if anything goes wrong at all he's fucked. There's no way Ez+most supports are going to win a trade by Ez jumping on Caitlyn+her support+her creep wave. (edit: Caitlyn is usually going to have a bigger creep wave than Ez too, if Ez has a creep advantage then Caitlyn is playing the lane all wrong) The point is, saying that Ezreal is a Caitlyn counter is wrong because Ezreal can't deny Caitlyn farm and isn't going to just straight up kill Caitlyn either unless she plays poorly. To me, a counter isn't someone who can farm okay and maybe win a few trades. A counter is someone who actively denies you farm or can kill you if you try to farm. Ezreal can't do either of these things to Caitlyn in a duo lane. I'm not even sure Ez can do either of those in a solo lane. Btw the person you're responding to is 2200+ elo on EUW so keep that in mind. Anyway I really think you're wrong in it that the opposing support does this or that before your support can react - they should both react just as fast in theory. That Ez jump on Cait is actually a ton of burst and should force Cait to run very soon, generally she's not going to fight after being instabursted like 300+ HP.
I am 100% confident that he's better than me. I usually post on TL knowing that the person I'm responding to is probably better than me at this game.
I just don't understand how Ez can be considered a counter when he isn't going to be able to deny Caitlyn farm nor can he just straight up kill her unless she positions horribly. Ez doing high burst is irrelevant because Trist/Corki could do equivalent burst with their leaps. But generally in a duo bot lane jumping on an AD carry that's in their creep line is a pretty shitty idea unless you're already up on health. Which Ez won't be unless Caitlyn plays badly and gets tagged with multiple Qs (which is incredibly rare at both low level play and competitive level).
Ez got picked against Caitlyn for the same reason Kog'Maw did (except Kog was picked even more than Ez at the time). They both have the range to safely farm against a Caitlyn lane and they both outscale Caitlyn. I think Ez sees less play because Caitlyn is just about the only AD carry that he outscales.
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On February 01 2012 09:50 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 09:38 0123456789 wrote:On February 01 2012 09:37 Shikyo wrote:On February 01 2012 09:29 overt wrote:On February 01 2012 08:23 Slayer91 wrote:On February 01 2012 07:00 overt wrote:On February 01 2012 06:08 Slayer91 wrote:On February 01 2012 03:59 Noocta wrote:On February 01 2012 03:52 Shiv. wrote:On February 01 2012 03:48 Noocta wrote:
[quote]
Ezreal shit on Cait oO
Just play agressive, she don't even do half your damage after lvl 3 lol If you have no clue what you are talking about, please refrain from talking at all. Tell me what Cait can do if you jump on her agressively after she use her Q. Specialy since cait players usualy stay near the bottom bush becuase of her passive, so minions are less a problem. But heh.. it can be. I usualy don't have a problem laning against cait as Ezreal. Always felt she's the easiest match up of ez. :/ Ez was always the classic "cait counter" from all top level players. You'll note he stopped being played when cait stopped being picked. I really hate people flaming someone over something that is highly debated as if it's general knowledge. He wasn't a Cait counter. He can just farm in lane because of the range on his Q. With proper positioning the lane still favors Caitlyn but Ez was capable of farming against a Caitlyn while other champions such as Ashe, Corki, or Vayne had difficulty farming against an aggressive Caitlyn in lane. Cait has a harder time zoning Ez than other ADs because of Q harass and the fact that Ez can still farm with Q. But Ezreal is not a counter to Caitlyn nor does he win the lane and he especially doesn't shit on her as Noocta said. Caitlyn is really strong early so most ADs just had to survive the beginning of the game without being fucked over. Almost every AD can survive that lane if they have a good support player and then when the lane phase is over you have an AD carry that's much stronger than Caitlyn simply because of how bad Caitlyn scales. What? You can farm with max range Q and then you pick your time to jump on caitlyn. You have insane steriods and way more damage with your Q and R and E base damage there's no possible way she can trade with that. Except that you're not considering supports at all or the fact that Caitlyn has great brush control with her traps. Ez is going to jump on a Caitlyn and take creep agro, Cait autos, and damage from your support? Why? By jump on her I'm assuming you mean E into her which is fine but if anything goes wrong at all he's fucked. There's no way Ez+most supports are going to win a trade by Ez jumping on Caitlyn+her support+her creep wave. (edit: Caitlyn is usually going to have a bigger creep wave than Ez too, if Ez has a creep advantage then Caitlyn is playing the lane all wrong) The point is, saying that Ezreal is a Caitlyn counter is wrong because Ezreal can't deny Caitlyn farm and isn't going to just straight up kill Caitlyn either unless she plays poorly. To me, a counter isn't someone who can farm okay and maybe win a few trades. A counter is someone who actively denies you farm or can kill you if you try to farm. Ezreal can't do either of these things to Caitlyn in a duo lane. I'm not even sure Ez can do either of those in a solo lane. Btw the person you're responding to is 2200+ elo on EUW so keep that in mind. Anyway I really think you're wrong in it that the opposing support does this or that before your support can react - they should both react just as fast in theory. That Ez jump on Cait is actually a ton of burst and should force Cait to run very soon, generally she's not going to fight after being instabursted like 300+ HP. Ok, think of doublelift playing Cait, and think of some EU scrub playing ez. Don't think EU scrub would ever beat doublelift cait as ez ever. Also, Cait would just push on you. ok done, now how about you think of chaox playing ez and doublelift playing cait. ? Why did you give such a retarded example anyway?
Doublelift would win every time. Obv, there's still support, but Doublelift would win, because chauster only plays sona. Ez can't do anything against cait pushing.
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