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On January 25 2012 15:16 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:
We need more ranged junglers. kayle and twitch are sick, but one built entirely for the jungler role would be nice too.
Fudgin udyr always just tanks my ryze shots, so I have to wait for turtle to go on cooldown to hit him, but even then it seems like he has it up instantly. So I have to blow two spells just to break a shield. I think AD could hurt him more, if he didn't just go bear and run a bit.
Corki and Graves are actually very good junglers, my personal favorite is TF, and dyrus is running jungle MF on stream ATM.
Experiment
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I have not, nor have I seen anyone (other than rare streamers) play her. Only hotshot quite a while ago but I don't know her ablities other than by visuals haha.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 25 2012 13:05 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 13:04 TheYango wrote:On January 25 2012 11:50 NotSorry wrote:
What would you look for in a new support that would make it viable but different from the current supports? Ranged hero with an unconditional point-and-click stun. You ARE aware of how broken that would be right?
Why? Annie and TF are balanced around semi-consistent point-and-click stuns. It's not like their kits are overly-centered on their single target stunning ability. I think it should be perfectly possible to design a ranged support with a point-and-click stun without making them OP.
On January 25 2012 14:39 Amui wrote:
Perhaps a regeneration based healer.
Heals for 1/1.5/2/2.5/3% of the targets health per sec + a flat amount 30/45/60/75/90+X per ability power over 5secs.
That goes completely against Riot's design philosophies because regen-based heals are skewed towards being useful in sustain scenarios and less useful as "clutch heals" in teamfights, which is the exact opposite of what Riot wants.
Soraka's W actually used to be a heal over time.
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future trends I think we'll see:
many more heros can jungle than currently do
lane aps built more tanky
vlad permaban
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United States47024 Posts
On January 25 2012 15:32 UniversalSnip wrote:
future trends I think we'll see:
many more heros can jungle than currently do
lane aps built more tanky
vlad permaban
Every hero can jungle right now. The limitation is still whether or not they can do enough in the jungle to make them worthwhile.
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On January 25 2012 15:33 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 15:32 UniversalSnip wrote:
future trends I think we'll see:
many more heros can jungle than currently do
lane aps built more tanky
vlad permaban Every hero can jungle right now. The limitation is still whether or not they can do enough in the jungle to make them worthwhile.
Whatever. You know perfectly well what I meant yango.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 25 2012 15:33 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 15:33 TheYango wrote:On January 25 2012 15:32 UniversalSnip wrote:
future trends I think we'll see:
many more heros can jungle than currently do
lane aps built more tanky
vlad permaban Every hero can jungle right now. The limitation is still whether or not they can do enough in the jungle to make them worthwhile. Whatever. You know perfectly well what I meant yango.
I actually don't--I'm not sure how a bunch of heroes that don't have kits to really accomplish anything out of the jungle suddenly gain that ability.
Granted I do agree that there are a few champs that the new jungle has enabled that aren't being explored yet.
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On January 25 2012 15:35 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 15:33 UniversalSnip wrote:On January 25 2012 15:33 TheYango wrote:On January 25 2012 15:32 UniversalSnip wrote:
future trends I think we'll see:
many more heros can jungle than currently do
lane aps built more tanky
vlad permaban Every hero can jungle right now. The limitation is still whether or not they can do enough in the jungle to make them worthwhile. Whatever. You know perfectly well what I meant yango. I actually don't--I'm not sure how a bunch of heroes that don't have kits to really accomplish anything out of the jungle suddenly gain that ability. Granted I do agree that there are a few champs that the new jungle has enabled that aren't being explored yet.
Than you agree with me completely
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On the subject of support wishlists:
- A shield that turns into a heal if its duration expires - either as the primary mechanic (small shield -> medium heal) or a secondary one (medium shield -> small heal). Alternatively, a shield that only heals if it's popped.
- Lay Waste, except for healing (with an appropriate cooldown)
- An ability (ultimate?) that's a pacify effect, blinding + silencing the target while still allowing them to move
- A Vampiric-Aura style ability, either as a toggle or a passive with an active component.
- A vector targeted push effect (think Shyvana ult, except with a targetable starting point).
- Change Taric's passive to just be a mp5 aura, so he and his laning partner actually derive some benefit from it
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The problem right now isn't that a lot of champs can't accomplish anything out of the jungle, it's more that they don't do anything nearly as well at the top tier junglers, mostly in terms of clear speed and control and gank potential.
The original junglers, Nunu, Warwick and Fiddle, now all have subpar clear speeds and control, relying completely on their ganks to accomplish anything. Compare that to Udyr, Skarner, and Lee Sin, who have faster clear speeds, kills almost anyone one-on-one, and has really deadly ganks. Add in that they transition to lategame way better than a lot of champs and its incredible that people aren't only picking the same four or five junglers every game.
Vlad should be permaban, but I love my vlad and really don't want to see it happen 
Should just revert the changes so I get to keep him! He's broken enough right now that I just won a game with jungle ASP Vlad (because 1st pick didn't swap me shaco)
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q - heal - heals for double if the target is below 50%
w - target ally buff for xs duration. dmg is reduced by x and % is redircted to you
e - target ally buff for xs duration the next auto attack is slowed for x% for xseconds.
ult - dmg reduction aura passive, use to burst and make allies dmg do more % or more enemies take % more dmg that were in the blast
passive. everytime cast a spell gain a small buff of mp5(only 1 buff on at a time)
bam best support.
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I'd make a really beefy tank/support champion like Alistar and Leona. Make him look kind of like Pudge, but with less hooks and maybe some tusks.
Passive: Slows enemy heroes that are close to the hero by a % of their missing health. Low health heroes slowed more.
Q: Skill shot charge that flips heroes over his head.
W: Short range aura that transfers AD/AP from enemy heroes into health for your hero. Either a flat # or a %.
E: Ally buff that transfers a % of the damage directed at that the ally back to the your hero. Lasts for a cetain # of instances like Lanaya in DotA.
R: Passive: Increases health regen based off of missing health. Lower health, higher regen. Active: Sacrifice a % of your current health to transfer that % into an allied hero. Kind of like the opposite of Terrorblade's Sunder.
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You guys know what would be a cool support skill?
A skillshot damage skill that drops a diablo 3 style health orb for a percent of the damage it did on the ground where it impacts. So you hit the enemy with it and then the AD or you have to walk over to that spot if you want to pick up the heal.
It would encourage aggressive movement as well as have interesting positioning aspects and allow for cool baiting tricks or situations where you leave a few on the ground to save for a big dive etc. Obviously only allies could pick them up.
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On January 25 2012 15:42 Niton wrote:
- A shield that turns into a heal if its duration expires - either as the primary mechanic (small shield -> medium heal) or a secondary one (medium shield -> small heal). Alternatively, a shield that only heals if it's popped.
Why would they implement something like that? You already don't want to fight in bot lane if someone has Janna shield and it's not just cause of the AD bonus but also because the shield itself means you won't do any actual damage to them. Having a shield with either variation has some pretty huge problems. First, if you're low or whatever and need the heal you're just gonna stay way back instead of fighting with the shield because you wouldn't want to risk losing the heal. If you go with the second option and the shield only heals when it's popped then it would create a support that's extremely broken. It'd allow an AD carry to go aggressive in lane while his opponents either back off or choose to engage in a trade that won't go favorably.
I think the problem with supports right now is that if a support doesn't have some sort of sustain then they absolutely need CC and a lot of it too. Hell, Leona has three stuns and she still doesn't get run as support as often as Alistar/Sona/Soraka because of her lack of sustain. Janna is like the best support in the game outside of lane phase but because she offers zero sustain few teams run her compared to healing supports.
I think the community would rage if it happened but Riot should consider just re-working/removing healing spells. Maybe let champions like Nidalee keep their heals but make it so it's only a self heal. Re-works on Soraka/Sona/Alistar/Taric and other sustain supports could create aggressive botlanes while also making it easier for Riot to release new supports (since, as is, I don't think they could release a solid support that doesn't have sustain).
For example, instead of Sona's W healing maybe it could slow enemies while still keeping the aura buff for allies. Instead of Soraka's W being a heal on a long cooldown maybe it could be a shield that restores mana if it's hit. Instead of Alistar's E being a heal have it be an attack speed buff or something. I dunno, I just think doing something like this to the major sustain supports could eliminate a lot of the boring elements of bot lane while also opening the support role up to more champions. However they would run the risk of champions like Karma or Kayle being run support if they kept their heals so maybe it'd be opening up an entire can of worms.
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On January 25 2012 16:06 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 15:42 Niton wrote:
- A shield that turns into a heal if its duration expires - either as the primary mechanic (small shield -> medium heal) or a secondary one (medium shield -> small heal). Alternatively, a shield that only heals if it's popped. Why would they implement something like that? You already don't want to fight in bot lane if someone has Janna shield and it's not just cause of the AD bonus but also because the shield itself means you won't do any actual damage to them. Having a shield with either variation has some pretty huge problems. First, if you're low or whatever and need the heal you're just gonna stay way back instead of fighting with the shield because you wouldn't want to risk losing the heal. If you go with the second option and the shield only heals when it's popped then it would create a support that's extremely broken. It'd allow an AD carry to go aggressive in lane while his opponents either back off or choose to engage in a trade that won't go favorably.
Thinking about it again, I think the shield popping is a much better mechanic - the point is to make them more efficient if you choose to fight, as an alternative to 'stand there and get efficiently healed' supports. From the school of Random Ass Numbers:
Sustain Guy Heal: 120
Shield Guy Shield: 75 (shield) + 60 (shield popped heal)
The idea is to create effective health that's more useful than a straight heal, without making it a straight shield. Straight shields aren't viable as long as any kind of healing sustain is around, so adding a healing component as a reward for fighting is the best thing i could come up with. I'd love to hear better ideas, because I really want to see more interesting support champions.
On a seperate note, does the new Galio icon remind anyone else of Warwick way too much?
e: Yeah, you're not going to eliminate healing entirely - lifeleech and spellvamp will never go away, and if healing went away entirely otherwise it'd just incredibly boost the power of those sources of healing. Failing that, just creating new kinds of support abilities that aren't Generic Efficient Targeted Heal would do wonders to breathe life into the bottom lane meta. Remember, Sona's not good only (or even mostly) because of her W, it's because her Q and E are powerful skills in their own right. Taric just has shitty other skills, and Soraka just has a shitty design.
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Dont have a problem with healingmechanics in the game really. All the 'strong' healers earlygame drop off compared to their support companions latergame imo
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On January 25 2012 16:27 Niton wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 16:06 overt wrote:On January 25 2012 15:42 Niton wrote:
- A shield that turns into a heal if its duration expires - either as the primary mechanic (small shield -> medium heal) or a secondary one (medium shield -> small heal). Alternatively, a shield that only heals if it's popped. Why would they implement something like that? You already don't want to fight in bot lane if someone has Janna shield and it's not just cause of the AD bonus but also because the shield itself means you won't do any actual damage to them. Having a shield with either variation has some pretty huge problems. First, if you're low or whatever and need the heal you're just gonna stay way back instead of fighting with the shield because you wouldn't want to risk losing the heal. If you go with the second option and the shield only heals when it's popped then it would create a support that's extremely broken. It'd allow an AD carry to go aggressive in lane while his opponents either back off or choose to engage in a trade that won't go favorably. Thinking about it again, I think the shield popping is a much better mechanic - the point is to make them more efficient if you choose to fight, as an alternative to 'stand there and get efficiently healed' supports. From the school of Random Ass Numbers: Sustain Guy Heal: 120 Shield Guy Shield: 75 (shield) + 60 (shield popped heal) The idea is to create effective health that's more useful than a straight heal, without making it a straight shield. Straight shields aren't viable as long as any kind of healing sustain is around, so adding a healing component as a reward for fighting is the best thing i could come up with. I'd love to hear better ideas, because I really want to see more interesting support champions.
Hm. I like that idea pretty okay. It'd be...interesting to see in game because the first time I would have to play against a support like that I'd probably think, "this is the most broken shit ever." Although more likely than not I'd just ignore the AD carry and attack the support if they fought us. I think it's a bit of a weird situation where you'd want to make a spell like that encourage aggression but at the same time if it allows people to trade super favorably then that support will be retardedly strong.
On January 25 2012 16:27 Niton wrote:
e: Yeah, you're not going to eliminate healing entirely - lifeleech and spellvamp will never go away, and if healing went away entirely otherwise it'd just incredibly boost the power of those sources of healing. Failing that, just creating new kinds of support abilities that aren't Generic Efficient Targeted Heal would do wonders to breathe life into the bottom lane meta. Remember, Sona's not good only (or even mostly) because of her W, it's because her Q and E are powerful skills in their own right. Taric just has shitty other skills, and Soraka just has a shitty design.
I know you can't get rid of heal completely and I'm personally fine with life steal, spell vamp, and healing on champs that don't go bottom. But I feel like healing on the supports that use it effectively creates a really weird barrier. Like, there's a reason why Sona/Soraka/Alistar are the three most common supports. If Alistar didn't have his heal would he still be played support or would you see more jungle/lane Alistar? If you removed the healing spells from those three champions would you see stuff like support Singed or support Jarvan? (edit: I'm not saying necessarily those specific champions, I just picked champs that have CC that I would consider desirable at bot lane. You can replace both of those suggestions with just, "would Leona get played more if those three didn't have their heals," if you want to.)
Right now picking a support is primarily about picking a champion that can ensure your AD carry can get farmed without being fucked. There's nuances like, "we need some initiation on our support so we'll pick Sona" or "we need counter-initiation so we'll pick Janna," but their primary role right now is to ensure your AD carry wins lane. The champions that do that the best and that do it the safest are the ones who have sustain. The fact that Alistar is also good cause of WQ combo or that Sona is good because she can harass well is kind of irrelevant because even if shit goes south or they mess up these supports can still allow your AD carry to stay in lane and farm.
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On January 25 2012 17:13 overt wrote:
Hm. I like that idea pretty okay. It'd be...interesting to see in game because the first time I would have to play against a support like that I'd probably think, "this is the most broken shit ever." Although more likely than not I'd just ignore the AD carry and attack the support if they fought us. I think it's a bit of a weird situation where you'd want to make a spell like that encourage aggression but at the same time if it allows people to trade super favorably then that support will be retardedly strong.
The numbers are what matters more than anything else, but ideally you'd want something that was more efficient when used properly, and less efficient otherwise. What you want is a small heal that never really becomes relevant that's attached to a decent-sized shield, so that you get the important parts of both sustain and throughput. Realistically, a more "playable" version might look something like:
"Shields target champion for 5 seconds, preventing 50/90/130/170/210 (+.6), and heals the target for half that amount when the shield fades." or "Shields target champion for 5 seconds, preventing 40/65/90/115/140 (+.45) damage and healing the target for the same amount if the effect ends early."
Or, because i'm thinking about it again, you could do something kinda like Sion's shield except a heal - good ratio, good healing, but if you time it wrong or it gets eaten too quickly you get nothing.
I know you can't get rid of heal completely and I'm personally fine with life steal, spell vamp, and healing on champs that don't go bottom. But I feel like healing on the supports that use it effectively creates a really weird barrier. Like, there's a reason why Sona/Soraka/Alistar are the three most common supports. If Alistar didn't have his heal would he still be played support or would you see more jungle/lane Alistar? If you removed the healing spells from those three champions would you see stuff like support Singed or support Jarvan? (edit: I'm not saying necessarily those specific champions, I just picked champs that have CC that I would consider desirable at bot lane. You can replace both of those suggestions with just, "would Leona get played more if those three didn't have their heals," if you want to.)
Right now picking a support is primarily about picking a champion that can ensure your AD carry can get farmed without being fucked. There's nuiances like, "we need some initiation on our support so we'll pick Sona" or "we need counter-initiation so we'll pick Janna," but their primary role right now is to ensure your AD carry wins lane. The champions that do that the best and that do it the safest are the ones who have sustain. The fact that Alistar is also good cause of WQ combo or that Sona is good because she can harass well is kind of irrelevant because even if shit goes south or they mess up these supports can still allow your AD carry to stay in lane and farm.
And I think that's more of a problem with how AD carries work than how supports work - they intentionally have low base stats and good scaling, making items on them more powerful than on anyone else. Add in the fact that supports have very few good reasons to farm right now, and you have a situation where the only logical choice is to pick someone to protect that AD.
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necrolyte style pbaoe heal allies hurt enemies.
buff that makes target ally's next aa have 150% lifesteal or something. double if u hit a champion. opposite effect if cast on enemy.
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On January 25 2012 17:24 Niton wrote:
And I think that's more of a problem with how AD carries work than how supports work - they intentionally have low base stats and good scaling, making items on them more powerful than on anyone else. Add in the fact that supports have very few good reasons to farm right now, and you have a situation where the only logical choice is to pick someone to protect that AD.
I suppose they could just keep things as is. Or change up how AD carries work. Or introduce new items that work well for support type champs. Dunno, I'm not a game designer.
I just think that the sustain of some of the common supports is a huge reason why the support champion pool is so small and why supports like Leona or Nunu are considered "niche" or "risky" supports.
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EPT
