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On January 25 2012 08:26 Two_DoWn wrote:
Again- remember that just because there IS a lane doesnt mean that there has to be an S class player for that lane.
Actually, I think top is the most pathetic of all positions ATM. For some reason it became "okay" for a tournament top lane player to not have a wide selection of champions. I mean, most SUPPORTS can play more champions than the top laners on their team. And there are like 5 support champions.
if you have all your bases covered well, why do you need to know a bunch of other underpowered and niche heroes? don't think nada or oov needed to master nukes to be S-class when they had the fundamentals mastered well
like, a tournament level gp or irelia doesn't need to demonstrate his prowess with singed/cho/olaf/whoever else there is when there's no need for fancy play syndrome
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On January 25 2012 08:40 clickrush wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 08:33 Shikyo wrote:On January 25 2012 08:26 Two_DoWn wrote:
Again- remember that just because there IS a lane doesnt mean that there has to be an S class player for that lane.
Actually, I think top is the most pathetic of all positions ATM. For some reason it became "okay" for a tournament top lane player to not have a wide selection of champions. I mean, most SUPPORTS can play more champions than the top laners on their team. And there are like 5 support champions. funny thing is that it's not even that hard to play competitive top in comparison. It's mostly farming and coming to dragon at the right time, some counterjungling. It'd make sense to me if you can play top with one champion you should be able to play with many others wow thats a bold statement. I think top is a very hard lane since the matchups are much more asymetric than the others + its the easyest to gank lane. If your behind enough top then you will straight up feed hardcore if you try to CS. APs and even ADs have the luxury to CS even if behind or when having a shitty matchup to a much greater extend. In top lane one guy is the bitch very fast if things happen.
Bold statement... Basically what I'm saying is that if you're world-class toplane with a champion it should be quite possible to play other champions at a good level as well
On January 25 2012 08:43 requiem wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 08:26 Two_DoWn wrote:
Again- remember that just because there IS a lane doesnt mean that there has to be an S class player for that lane.
Actually, I think top is the most pathetic of all positions ATM. For some reason it became "okay" for a tournament top lane player to not have a wide selection of champions. I mean, most SUPPORTS can play more champions than the top laners on their team. And there are like 5 support champions. if you have all your bases covered well, why do you need to know a bunch of other underpowered and niche heroes? don't think nada or oov needed to master nukes to be S-class when they had the fundamentals mastered well
in starcraft you can't ban marines or siege tanks
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On January 25 2012 08:41 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Can you really expect people to be able to play 10+ champions at tournament level? Even for somebody like HotshotGG who has a very narrow list of champions, as long as one of those fit into the team comp you intend to run does it really matter (unless it gets banned)?
Like Wicked might be S class top with Irelia because he destroys that hard with her, but that same mastery level definitely doesn't apply to other champions. I'm not saying he's bad with other champions, merely that his irelia is so dominant that teams target a ban for it. Should he be expected to play five or ten champions at his irelia level? I'm not even sure that is a possibility, but somebody could swing by and prove that they are the true S class top for sure.
Most of the ad carry players have a preference on who their favorite ad carry is for instance and they will probably play that one unless it's banned or their team comp wants otherwise. It's no different than top lane besides the fact that the top lane champions play so differently that they require more than solid mechanics. Like the ad carry is more about positioning than actually using the champion's kit. What separates chaox from the other ad carries is that he's always in position and synergizes perfectly with his support player. If you can play Caitlyn at S class level, your other carries are already A+ just because they all do practically the same thing. There's some niche things to each one, but they're a lot simpler than top lanes. If you can play Irelia at S class level, your rumble might be F level since they play completely differently.
laugh@Shikyo. You can't seriously think that ^_^
What about mid? They play VERY different from each other, especially since you arent dealing with little trades (easy to judge) like in top lane, but in bursty trades where misjudging means death. And AP players have much wider selections of champs that they play than top laners.
And jungle is VERY different depending on who you are playing. What you do, how fast you clear, how often you gank, what you can do in teamfights, what you are expected to do in teamfights.
I mean, I dont think top is easy by any means, and it certainly has the widest variety of possible matchups. But I definitely do not think that is an excuse, especially in light of my points above.
@ Req- the problem is that top players dont even play all the common picks. Like I honestly cant think of a tourney top laner who has an above average GP AND Irelia. The common thread among them just seems to be "oh I play one champ and thats it" and they leave a lot of possibilities on the table.
Not to mention that something is only "niche" until it becomes a widely accepted champion. Irelia was niche for a good 4 months, for example. So was Cass. Limiting yourself only hurts your ability to play the game.
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On January 25 2012 08:43 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 08:40 clickrush wrote:On January 25 2012 08:33 Shikyo wrote:On January 25 2012 08:26 Two_DoWn wrote:
Again- remember that just because there IS a lane doesnt mean that there has to be an S class player for that lane.
Actually, I think top is the most pathetic of all positions ATM. For some reason it became "okay" for a tournament top lane player to not have a wide selection of champions. I mean, most SUPPORTS can play more champions than the top laners on their team. And there are like 5 support champions. funny thing is that it's not even that hard to play competitive top in comparison. It's mostly farming and coming to dragon at the right time, some counterjungling. It'd make sense to me if you can play top with one champion you should be able to play with many others wow thats a bold statement. I think top is a very hard lane since the matchups are much more asymetric than the others + its the easyest to gank lane. If your behind enough top then you will straight up feed hardcore if you try to CS. APs and even ADs have the luxury to CS even if behind or when having a shitty matchup to a much greater extend. In top lane one guy is the bitch very fast if things happen. Bold statement... Basically what I'm saying is that if you're world-class toplane with a champion it should be quite possible to play other champions at a good level as well Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 08:43 requiem wrote:On January 25 2012 08:26 Two_DoWn wrote:
Again- remember that just because there IS a lane doesnt mean that there has to be an S class player for that lane.
Actually, I think top is the most pathetic of all positions ATM. For some reason it became "okay" for a tournament top lane player to not have a wide selection of champions. I mean, most SUPPORTS can play more champions than the top laners on their team. And there are like 5 support champions. if you have all your bases covered well, why do you need to know a bunch of other underpowered and niche heroes? don't think nada or oov needed to master nukes to be S-class when they had the fundamentals mastered well in starcraft you can't ban marines or siege tanks
the elite top players may or may not be able to play 10 heroes like some mids can but i don't see how banning 4 of his heroes is going to cripple him (3 ban + 1 pick for your own top) if, as i said, he "has his bases covered"
and just for clarity's sake, i agree that of course everyone could do better with learning more heroes, other roles, exact Cd and mana costs of every single skill in the game etc but maybe focusing on a core 5-6 heroes is just all-around better way to remain "competitive" ? i'm sure the terran player can benefit from playing toss and Z for massive # of hours to gain perspective but he better have his own shit together first before going for that pinnacle level
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On January 25 2012 08:25 Hakker wrote:
Does anyone know why garen's spin does half damage to minions? It just seems like an unnecessary and completely arbitrary restriction. Would it really be that op if garen can clear waves effectively? Its not like hes nearly as strong a pick as he was 2-3 months ago.
spin doing half damage to minions helps garen. garen is one of the tops that doesn't want to push the lane, he needs a lot of room to work with to zone on virtue of not having a true gap closer. half damage to minions lets you spin to win without herping the whole wave to their tower
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On January 25 2012 08:47 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 08:41 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Can you really expect people to be able to play 10+ champions at tournament level? Even for somebody like HotshotGG who has a very narrow list of champions, as long as one of those fit into the team comp you intend to run does it really matter (unless it gets banned)?
Like Wicked might be S class top with Irelia because he destroys that hard with her, but that same mastery level definitely doesn't apply to other champions. I'm not saying he's bad with other champions, merely that his irelia is so dominant that teams target a ban for it. Should he be expected to play five or ten champions at his irelia level? I'm not even sure that is a possibility, but somebody could swing by and prove that they are the true S class top for sure.
Most of the ad carry players have a preference on who their favorite ad carry is for instance and they will probably play that one unless it's banned or their team comp wants otherwise. It's no different than top lane besides the fact that the top lane champions play so differently that they require more than solid mechanics. Like the ad carry is more about positioning than actually using the champion's kit. What separates chaox from the other ad carries is that he's always in position and synergizes perfectly with his support player. If you can play Caitlyn at S class level, your other carries are already A+ just because they all do practically the same thing. There's some niche things to each one, but they're a lot simpler than top lanes. If you can play Irelia at S class level, your rumble might be F level since they play completely differently.
laugh@Shikyo. You can't seriously think that ^_^ What about mid? They play VERY different from each other, especially since you arent dealing with little trades (easy to judge) like in top lane, but in bursty trades where misjudging means death. And AP players have much wider selections of champs that they play than top laners. And jungle is VERY different depending on who you are playing. What you do, how fast you clear, how often you gank, what you can do in teamfights, what you are expected to do in teamfights. I mean, I dont think top is easy by any means, and it certainly has the widest variety of possible matchups. But I definitely do not think that is an excuse, especially in light of my points above.
I think most of jungling is just mechanics and knowing what to do rather than being "good" at it. You are good at it if you know what to do if you get what I'm saying here. Like Saint can go troll soloQ with any champion and do decent at jungling it because he understands exactly how to jungle. He knows what he needs to do and how he can do the most for his team at every possible moment. There are some champions like Shaco that require a bit more know how, but all the top junglers don't know how to play Shaco. This is even more true after the jungle changes how any champion can start anywhere basically.
I tend to agree that middle and top are about as equally complicated (maybe top a bit moreso), but most AP players have a few champions they're known for as well.
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i think mid is more complicated, you can get ganked from 2 sides, and conversely can have influence on both sides of the map as well as their jungle and your jungle.
top might have some push/freeze decisions, roam mid decisions/go to dragon decisions, and some more teleport summoner spell decisions, but by its nature on the edge of the map has more limited choices
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Someone please tell me that, when your name is red (leaving), you don't get elo if your team wins. How exactly does it work anyway?
If your team lose you lose elo I think that's pretty obvious. But what happens if your team wins?
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On January 25 2012 09:04 Keniji wrote:
Someone please tell me that, when your name is red (leaving), you don't get elo if your team wins. How exactly does it work anyway?
If your team lose you lose elo I think that's pretty obvious. But what happens if your team wins?
you dont get elo or ip
BTW if you guys watched the IEM top actually got ganked pretty much never and they were able to just farm in peace, that's why I think it's the simplest lane. Bottom lane is imo the most difficult because of the dual dynamics
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Just played solo top Swain vs Lee Sin.
Man thats a tense matchup. Both sides gotta be careful as hell.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 25 2012 08:43 requiem wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 08:26 Two_DoWn wrote:
Again- remember that just because there IS a lane doesnt mean that there has to be an S class player for that lane.
Actually, I think top is the most pathetic of all positions ATM. For some reason it became "okay" for a tournament top lane player to not have a wide selection of champions. I mean, most SUPPORTS can play more champions than the top laners on their team. And there are like 5 support champions. if you have all your bases covered well, why do you need to know a bunch of other underpowered and niche heroes? don't think nada or oov needed to master nukes to be S-class when they had the fundamentals mastered well like, a tournament level gp or irelia doesn't need to demonstrate his prowess with singed/cho/olaf/whoever else there is when there's no need for fancy play syndrome
It's not playing "niche" or "underpowered" heroes. It's playing the hero that's best suited to the team-comp that their team wants to play. Many top laners on high-level teams aren't even capable of that, and end up having to shoehorn their limited picks into a team that's not suited for them, or against a team that they're not good against.
On January 25 2012 08:48 requiem wrote:
the elite top players may or may not be able to play 10 heroes like some mids can but i don't see how banning 4 of his heroes is going to cripple him (3 ban + 1 pick for your own top) if, as i said, he "has his bases covered"
You're assuming that getting to play a hero that he knows how to play is good enough, but at the top level it's not the case. Suppose they ban/pick against your top laner, and take out 4 of his 5 heroes. Even if he's got one left he can play, that's simply not good for you because you're forced in a situation where you HAVE to play team-comps that fit that hero. Or worse, try to shoehorn that hero into a team-comp that he's NOT good in.
It's not necessary for a player to know every hero in their role. But given a team that is comfortable playing a specific set of strategies, it IS necessary for a player to be able to play heroes that are suitable for those strategies. It should never be the case that a team might think "X is the best hero left for this team-comp on paper, but we can't use X because our top laner doesn't know how to play him". The 4 other players on your team shouldn't have to play with a suboptimal top lane pick just because you don't know the hero that would fit the team-comp the best.
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On January 25 2012 09:03 requiem wrote:
i think mid is more complicated, you can get ganked from 2 sides, and conversely can have influence on both sides of the map as well as their jungle and your jungle.
top might have some push/freeze decisions, roam mid decisions/go to dragon decisions, and some more teleport summoner spell decisions, but by its nature on the edge of the map has more limited choices
Really easy to escape ganks in mid though because the lane is so short.
Top lane has so many choices. To a point where it's probably impossible for a player to be fluent with every match up that can occur there. Mid has a much more limited pool. Like, you'll see the same champs over and over again especially at the competitive level. Compare that to top where things like Teemo can be brought out or suddenly your team could run Shyvana top in a tournament. Or hell, you could run an AP carry top. It's the most dynamic lane and the hardest to be really prepared for which is one of the reasons why I think top laners are so inconsistent.
I also have zero clue why high level top laners have such a limited champion pool. That's the lane where you'd want to have someone who can play like twenty champions for it.
edit:
My most played roles are AP carry and AD carry. I suck at top lane. So yeah, that probably influences my opinion.
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On January 25 2012 08:43 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 08:40 clickrush wrote:On January 25 2012 08:33 Shikyo wrote:On January 25 2012 08:26 Two_DoWn wrote:
Again- remember that just because there IS a lane doesnt mean that there has to be an S class player for that lane.
Actually, I think top is the most pathetic of all positions ATM. For some reason it became "okay" for a tournament top lane player to not have a wide selection of champions. I mean, most SUPPORTS can play more champions than the top laners on their team. And there are like 5 support champions. funny thing is that it's not even that hard to play competitive top in comparison. It's mostly farming and coming to dragon at the right time, some counterjungling. It'd make sense to me if you can play top with one champion you should be able to play with many others wow thats a bold statement. I think top is a very hard lane since the matchups are much more asymetric than the others + its the easyest to gank lane. If your behind enough top then you will straight up feed hardcore if you try to CS. APs and even ADs have the luxury to CS even if behind or when having a shitty matchup to a much greater extend. In top lane one guy is the bitch very fast if things happen. Bold statement... Basically what I'm saying is that if you're world-class toplane with a champion it should be quite possible to play other champions at a good level as well
I keep expecting to see something like:
Achievement Unlocked: Agree with Shikyo
pop up on my screen. Frankly it is weird that so many of the best NA top laners have such narrow proficiencies when the best players in other roles are much more varied. I don't think it has anything to do with the difficulty of the lane either (I mean, really...?), it's much more likely to be coincidence than that. Like, it just happened to turn out that way and then we see a pattern, if it were that way for mid we'd probably come up with reasons for mid to require relatively few champs, etc.
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On January 24 2012 17:12 Craton wrote:
4 games, 3 with d/cs
cool servers
User was warned for this post
Since when has talking about the servers being shitty violated the QQ thread rule. It's been done dozens, if not hundreds or times with no issue and there's been no mention of changing that criteria.
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On January 25 2012 09:28 Craton wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2012 17:12 Craton wrote:
4 games, 3 with d/cs
cool servers
User was warned for this post Since when has talking about the servers being shitty violated the QQ thread rule. It's been done dozens, if not hundreds or times with no issue and there's been no mention of changing that criteria.
Because this is not the QQ thread.
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You're whooshing over the point. It has never been an issue.
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By the way I think Dyrus would be maybe the best toplaner in the game, but his best champions just happen to be kind of underpowered at this time so he doesn't get to play them too much. If for instance he could play the Singed of the past or the Jax who didn't suck, he'd rate much higher. Of course, this is kind of how it is with HotshotGG as well. I think the nerfs hit her hard as HSGG nidalee top has seemed very lackluster to me as of late.
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On January 25 2012 09:41 Shikyo wrote:
By the way I think Dyrus would be maybe the best toplaner in the game, but his best champions just happen to be kind of underpowered at this time so he doesn't get to play them too much. If for instance he could play the Singed of the past or the Jax who didn't suck, he'd rate much higher. Of course, this is kind of how it is with HotshotGG as well. I think the nerfs hit her hard as HSGG nidalee top has seemed very lackluster to me as of late.
Is there a secret you learned about HSGG that you're not telling us?
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Uhm... seeing that warning above, where is the line currently for "QQ thread go there fknewb"?
Is the warning just about "4 games, 3 with d/c, cool servers" (not fine) vs "4 games, 3 with d/c, cool servers riot, anyone else got that problem?" (totally fine cause it's not PURE whining)?
Like, personally I see no real diifference between those two, since anyone answering to the first statement will either confirm or deny that he had lots of disconnects as well. So despite him not asking about what's going on for others the topic itself kinda implies that.
If someone says "wow I just lost 5 games due to stupid teammates" - THAT is imo a statement which was just done to vent somewhere, without the intention of getting any constructive feedback. Also with this statement an attached "...anyone else having the same problem?" would not change whether it's whining or not.
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On January 25 2012 09:46 phyvo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 09:41 Shikyo wrote:
By the way I think Dyrus would be maybe the best toplaner in the game, but his best champions just happen to be kind of underpowered at this time so he doesn't get to play them too much. If for instance he could play the Singed of the past or the Jax who didn't suck, he'd rate much higher. Of course, this is kind of how it is with HotshotGG as well. I think the nerfs hit her hard as HSGG nidalee top has seemed very lackluster to me as of late. Is there a secret you learned about HSGG that you're not telling us?
nerfs hit her hard
Nidalee was nerfed, not hotshotgg. I don't even need to mention that as saying "her" in that context makes it obvious I am referring to Nidalee.
On January 25 2012 09:58 r.Evo wrote:
Uhm... seeing that warning above, where is the line currently for "QQ thread go there fknewb"?
Is the warning just about "4 games, 3 with d/c, cool servers" (not fine) vs "4 games, 3 with d/c, cool servers riot, anyone else got that problem?" (totally fine cause it's not PURE whining)?
Like, personally I see no real diifference between those two, since anyone answering to the first statement will either confirm or deny that he had lots of disconnects as well. So despite him not asking about what's going on for others the topic itself kinda implies that.
If someone says "wow I just lost 5 games due to stupid teammates" - THAT is imo a statement which was just done to vent somewhere, without the intention of getting any constructive feedback. Also with this statement an attached "...anyone else having the same problem?" would not change whether it's whining or not.
Well I got warned for something like "Well that last game enemies got this and that and got fed and so on" With it seeming like a description of the past game without any apparent whining in my opinion and got warned, they are really strict. I'm pretty sure it's warnable to say something like "I just lost a game because the enemy toplane was able to survive ganks while pushing" because it has got something to do with you losing the game even if it's not clearly whining.
So in short: They're pretty strict and when borderline you should post in the other thread.
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