EPT[Patch 1.0.0.131: Viktor] General Discussion - Page 91
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daemir
Finland8662 Posts
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On January 07 2012 04:11 AwayFromLife wrote: Well, you can't really base his effectiveness off that. If there was a guaranteed Rammus or Talon in every game, there'd be no AD carry meta because, well, Rammus. Same goes for Galio and AP assassins, though that's kinda true in any case. If the enemy team is squishy, with no real "tank" or front-line defensive bruiser, Twitch can mutilate things, as can Shaco. However, here's my difference: 1v1, Shaco is insane. Teamfights, not so much. 1v1, Twitch can win or escape pretty much 100% of the time. Teamfights, Twitch will function like a carry and his ult will rape you if you clump up. He can be shut down a bit harder, but he doesn't have a sudden drop off in effectiveness late game. Shaco late game is one of the most underrated things in this game because people are stupid and dont know how to play him properly. He has the most drag/baron control of any jungle in the game, hands down. Probably most overall if you discount farmed to hell jax. In a teamfight, shaco is actually deadly because he has free reign over getting to your squishes and blowing them up with his clone for extra damage. He actually does this better than anyone. The problem is that the majority of people dont build him to survive a teamfight. They get wriggles ghostblade and pd, get 2 shotted and go "OMG SHACO LATE GAME SUCKS." Instead if you build him like a bruiser, guess what? He does bruiser things only with more mobility AND better fight control through smart boxing. Not to mention he is the single biggest backdoor threat in the game atm because of his escapability and 1v1 skill. The problem with that is you need all 5 of your teammates to work with you for that strat, which is hard to do in solo q. So ya, shaco late game is actually very good. People are just retarded. | ||
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daemir
Finland8662 Posts
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Sandster
United States4054 Posts
If you're confident in your 1v2 lane, I would run your full path -> invade jungle for their blue buff -> gank or back as Udyr, then sweep around and do the other side. This gives you full uptime on blue and red early game. Golem/lizard gives the most exp/gold and set you to gank two lanes, so try to keep those cleared, while giving your buffs to whoever need them. EDIT: I believe the fastest leveling path is: wolves > blue > your wraiths > gols/red* > wraiths* > enemy wolves > enemy blue* go back then go your gols* > wraiths* > wolves > enemy wraiths > enemy red > enemy gols* > enemy wraiths* The * are good gank opportunities. This path also gives you smite at the buff camps. You can also skip your gols/wraiths after you back and go straight for wolves -> their wraiths/red if you're not ganking. | ||
NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On January 07 2012 04:28 daemir wrote: good points TD, I really haven't seen anyone run a bruiser shaco, but a bruiser who can invis blink to carries and slows with autoattacks? Kinda nasty. What kind of build would you do for that in regards to items/runes/mast to keep scary enough ganks. Clearing jungle is never an issue for him with boxes. The key, as with all buisers, is to hit the fine line between being unkillable and doing a shit ton of damage. Personally, I like to go a wriggles-avarice then evaluate where I am at. Normally I can go ahead and finish the ghostblade, a great item for shaco which gives him even more objective control and 1v1 power, but if I am behind or am going to need a healthpool to survive, say, a fed ap carry, I will start going for an early mogs. Or you can go for ghostblade wits end as a tanky aspeed build. If I am going to die in a teamfight, Ill grab a warmogs. If not, trinity force is a good buy for a bit of extra tank and because shaco uses all of the stuff it gives him.. Then typically I just build towards staying alive or doing more damage, depending on what I need. Basically just pretend you are playing skarner. Anything good on him is good on shaco. But for some reason people insist on always going for squishy bd shaco, which is really really bad in teamfights. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
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Sandster
United States4054 Posts
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On January 07 2012 04:34 Two_DoWn wrote: The key, as with all buisers, is to hit the fine line between being unkillable and doing a shit ton of damage. Personally, I like to go a wriggles-avarice then evaluate where I am at. Normally I can go ahead and finish the ghostblade, a great item for shaco which gives him even more objective control and 1v1 power, but if I am behind or am going to need a healthpool to survive, say, a fed ap carry, I will start going for an early mogs. Or you can go for ghostblade wits end as a tanky aspeed build. If I am going to die in a teamfight, Ill grab a warmogs. If not, trinity force is a good buy for a bit of extra tank and because shaco uses all of the stuff it gives him.. Then typically I just build towards staying alive or doing more damage, depending on what I need. Basically just pretend you are playing skarner. Anything good on him is good on shaco. But for some reason people insist on always going for squishy bd shaco, which is really really bad in teamfights. I don't understand why you're talking about skarnar and a wriggle's -> avarice opening in the same post... why not make a better comparison like, you know, fucking nocturne, who actually has basically the same build path you're suggesting, instead of Skarnar who typically builds double gold/10 -> wit's -> straight tank? anyway, I still disagree, Shaco's base numbers are too low to pretend you're someone like Nocturne who has a batshit insane steroid that lets him actually do damage while building tanking items. All of Shaco's scaling comes from his ult, a free crit after decieve, and his passive, all of which are based on his AD with more or less forgettable base numbers. | ||
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OutlaW-
Czech Republic5053 Posts
On January 07 2012 04:25 Two_DoWn wrote: Shaco late game is one of the most underrated things in this game because people are stupid and dont know how to play him properly. He has the most drag/baron control of any jungle in the game, hands down. Probably most overall if you discount farmed to hell jax. In a teamfight, shaco is actually deadly because he has free reign over getting to your squishes and blowing them up with his clone for extra damage. He actually does this better than anyone. The problem is that the majority of people dont build him to survive a teamfight. They get wriggles ghostblade and pd, get 2 shotted and go "OMG SHACO LATE GAME SUCKS." Instead if you build him like a bruiser, guess what? He does bruiser things only with more mobility AND better fight control through smart boxing. Not to mention he is the single biggest backdoor threat in the game atm because of his escapability and 1v1 skill. The problem with that is you need all 5 of your teammates to work with you for that strat, which is hard to do in solo q. So ya, shaco late game is actually very good. People are just retarded. ya, shaco's late game is actually really good and becomes very rewarding i don't agree that you should build him as a bruiser, though. I feel that his job in teamfights is to engage only when you aren't going to get targeted, kill a squishy fast, and get the hell out I build him wriggles > trinity > LW/IE (depends on how fed) > GA > LW/IE/whatever, I feel like a bruiser shaco doesn't have enough damage to 2 shot people and reenter ''stealth'', besides, a bruiser shaco if focused will die in 5 seconds instead of 3, so rather than building HP (GA is an exception, it really improves shaco's gameplay because you can do crazy shit, die and get out after respawning with Q) I build more damage and just try playing him really carefully | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
I think AD shaco is poop | ||
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JackDino
Gabon6219 Posts
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On January 07 2012 04:41 Mogwai wrote: I don't understand why you're talking about skarnar and a wriggle's -> avarice opening in the same post... why not make a better comparison like, you know, fucking nocturne, who actually has basically the same build path you're suggesting, instead of Skarnar who typically builds double gold/10 -> wit's -> straight tank? anyway, I still disagree, Shaco's base numbers are too low to pretend you're someone like Nocturne who has a batshit insane steroid that lets him actually do damage while building tanking items. All of Shaco's scaling comes from his ult, a free crit after decieve, and his passive, all of which are based on his AD with more or less forgettable base numbers. Well, the skarner thing was more for late game tank items, the early game is different as I listed, it wasnt very clear though I will admit. | ||
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JackDino
Gabon6219 Posts
Ap shaco hella fun though. | ||
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daemir
Finland8662 Posts
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On January 07 2012 04:48 Two_DoWn wrote: Well, the skarner thing was more for late game tank items, the early game is different as I listed, it wasnt very clear though I will admit. Skarnar late game items: Reverie, Frozen Heart, Wit's End, Randuin's Shaco late game items: Wriggle's, Ghostlbade, Trinity, Atmog's, GA I don't see the overlap. Just a bad comparisson IMO. That or you play with really bad skarnars. | ||
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eagle
United States693 Posts
wriggle mobilty triforce ie so fed | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
 Sometimes, I just want to work for Riot so I can have everything without grindan. And because it's my dream job, but that's beyond the point. | ||
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Sandster
United States4054 Posts
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