EPT[Patch 1.0.0.131: Viktor] General Discussion - Page 6
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anmolsinghmzn2009
India1783 Posts
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On December 30 2011 13:59 NotSorry wrote: He uses his lightning abilities to create different magnetic poles on the kunai forcing it to spin The only way that would work is if he consistently switched which poles were positive and negative, otherwise one end would just constantly point North. Why am I doing this? | ||
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overt
United States9006 Posts
For less damage you get massive utility and it's a lot easier to just blow your full combo then press R and Zhonya's in the middle of the enemy team than it is to play perfectly with more AP. I don't think Zhonya's as second major item would work on like Kennen who needs Rylai's + WotA but on Morg/Swain I'm surprised I see it get delayed so long by so many people. | ||
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Mios
United States686 Posts
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Brees
Marshall Islands3404 Posts
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Bladeorade
United States1898 Posts
On December 30 2011 14:17 Brees wrote: that new guy seems to be much more suited to support then ap... In what ways? He has only got a slow/stun and a bunch of damage with a silencing ult. His kit seems geared to vs melee with his Q shield on delay and early short range slow/stun. Put him top and build WotA imo | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On December 30 2011 14:07 overt wrote: Why don't people build Zhonya's faster on certain APs? Like, on Swain, right after RoA I've been getting Zhonya's and it works pretty well. I would imagine a quicker Zhonya's on like Morgana or something would be helpful but I usually see people build RoA into Death Cap and then get Zhonya's or sometimes delay Zhonya's behind their Void Staff. For less damage you get massive utility and it's a lot easier to just blow your full combo then press R and Zhonya's in the middle of the enemy team than it is to play perfectly with more AP. I don't think Zhonya's as second major item would work on like Kennen who needs Rylai's + WotA but on Morg/Swain I'm surprised I see it get delayed so long by so many people. The problems with zhonyas is that it gives VERY little in terms of actual survivability and damage. Its ap is outclassed by dcap, and while the active is good on characters like swain and morgana, most of the time it just isnt worth it. If you are getting instagibed by someone who has an item, you are doing something wrong. Most of the time it is much better on morg to just go ROA or ring stack into a dcap so that you can actually pop people, THEN transition to zhonyas if you need the active to stay alive. On Swain ROA into zhonyas can work, but your damage is going to be low, and its really only any good if you are dying for the armor, not the active. Overall it is just outclassed. IMO the active is one of those things that seems a lot better on paper than it actually justifies as an in game use. Does it have its moments? Sure. But compared to the alternative (dcap, void, wota) it really isnt worth rushing at this point- the damage it brings is just too low. PS- correct kennen build is wota->cap. | ||
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anmolsinghmzn2009
India1783 Posts
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overt
United States9006 Posts
On December 30 2011 14:26 Two_DoWn wrote: The problems with zhonyas is that it gives VERY little in terms of actual survivability and damage. Its ap is outclassed by dcap, and while the active is good on characters like swain and morgana, most of the time it just isnt worth it. If you are getting instagibed by someone who has an item, you are doing something wrong. Most of the time it is much better on morg to just go ROA or ring stack into a dcap so that you can actually pop people, THEN transition to zhonyas if you need the active to stay alive. On Swain ROA into zhonyas can work, but your damage is going to be low, and its really only any good if you are dying for the armor, not the active. Overall it is just outclassed. IMO the active is one of those things that seems a lot better on paper than it actually justifies as an in game use. Does it have its moments? Sure. But compared to the alternative (dcap, void, wota) it really isnt worth rushing at this point- the damage it brings is just too low. PS- correct kennen build is wota->cap. It gives more AP than Rylai's, RoA, and WotA though. I think the spell vamp you'd get from WotA is better for survivability than the armor but I was always under the impression that resists > health so the survivability from Zhonya's might be equatable to Rylai's (although I'd still probably rather have 500 HP than 50 armor). The only champs that I think Zhonya's after RoA would be good on are Morg and Swain but especially Swain since you want to go in and take damage anyways. Getting it right after RoA lets you run in, do your combo, tank until you're about half HP and then pop ult + Zhonya's. You get to almost full HP when Zhonya's is done. For sheer stats I think Dcap/RoA/Void is probably superior than getting Zhonya's as second item but since most people are bad at this game (including me) I don't understand why more players don't get the Zhonya's as their second big item because it allows you to play crazy aggressive and still survive. On like Kennen and other APs who get it I can understand delaying it longer for sure. But on Morg/Swain I think that getting it as your second item (after either RoA or Dcap) makes pretty solid sense considering it gives you lots of AP, armor, and a really strong active for those two champions. | ||
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deskscaress
United States399 Posts
either zhonya's first or wota->zhonya who cares if you do a little less damage, if you get like 3 seconds of your E raging as karthus or free ult damage on kennen/morg/swain or even more annoyingness as vlad (although i've seen it less on vlad) you get deathcap after that to make your damage even more beastly | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
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wussleeQ
United States3130 Posts
Edit- of course this however is only from my limited experience with him (3 games lol) and on the third game i felt like i finally understood how to play him. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
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Shifft
Canada1085 Posts
On December 30 2011 14:47 deskscaress wrote: zhonya's first is pretty viable in dual-AP comps either zhonya's first or wota->zhonya who cares if you do a little less damage, if you get like 3 seconds of your E raging as karthus or free ult damage on kennen/morg/swain or even more annoyingness as vlad (although i've seen it less on vlad) you get deathcap after that to make your damage even more beastly Eh double wota too strong to ever go zhonya first for 2xAP, wota->zhonya is good though. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On December 30 2011 13:11 Requizen wrote: Meh, magic and physics are separate. He's not going to magically make his kunai spin instead of fly straight, he's just going to throw them. Magic swords are magic, kunai are kunai. /nitpick It does magic damage, magicly flown kunai's, totally possible. | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
Though if I don't lose lane as tristana, and the game carries on, my damage ouptut just soars into mid and late game. I just need to AOE clear waves quickly in 1v2 lanes, and pot up as a support, tank, or AP. If the lane alternates between pushed at my tower and being at mid, I can just farm as I normally would, only avoiding trades. If the lane freezes in mid, then I need to force it to move with a ranged AOE spell like tormented soil as one of my new waves pushes in (enemies will move out of the way to avoid being hit), minimizing the damage I take with spell shield, and then backing off to heal. Otherwise I need to call for a lane trade with someone who does have a ranged AOE spell. I tend to lose lane because when I max Q on tristana, I have significantly less burst than any other character. In addition Doran's adds the most to early game fighting ability and I've recently started skipping dblade. I'm making cait my main AD carry again, even though an IE with cait has like half the DPS of a trist with IE and lvl5 Q | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
I did a game like this: DRing, Sorc boots, Wota, Power Augment, Rabadoodle, whatever (didn't get that far). Holy crap. You don't die. Screw RoA, just be smart with spells and have some mp5 runes. It's like Swain but with lasers and robots instead of lasers and birds. Maybe just bad players, but it worked so well. | ||
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r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
On December 30 2011 14:37 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote: Regarding the cost-effectiveness off morello's - say you have an AP who can safely build a morello as a second major item and you have another champion that benefits from blue like maybe ezreal or someone similar. would it be worth it for the ap to build morello in that scenario? This is actually a cool question. Ezreal, Corki, Cho, Maokai, Amumu, Karma, Kog, Nidalee... I can think of so many non-mid champs who would love that blue. However, since I suck at AP mid I'm hoping someone else can answer that question properly - I guess it comes down to whether the blue buff on the other teammember outweighs the AP having to build Morellos. Since I'm one of the guys who keep claiming that AP should let junglers farm once they have their (RoA+) Deathcap and start roaming harder, I can see it being a good idea. :> | ||
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deskscaress
United States399 Posts
so if you think you can do well with a half-blue, and give your blue to another lane, then do it. | ||
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overt
United States9006 Posts
On December 30 2011 15:01 Seuss wrote: Isn't Swain supposed to avoid taking damage by kiting the enemy bruisers around until they realize how much they hate Nevermove and Lazerbird? I'm not an expert on him but my impression was the "gung ho ult into enemy team" style was reserved for when you're ridiculously fed, at which point the Deathcap vs Zhonya's question is practically moot. In lane, yes. In a team fight you'll kite bruisers who are trying to dive your team but usually bruisers aren't stupid enough to try that more than once if you have Swain on your team. In big team fights Swain goes in front of your squishies to tank damage because of the regen on his R. You also pop your other spells to cause as much damage and disruption as possible. It's really hard to initiate on a team that has a Swain without burning Flash. Even if you don't go early Zhonya's you're going to get that item at some point on Swain if the game goes long enough because while you're tanking in the middle of the team fight nothing is cooler than R->Zhonya's->full HP. He isn't someone where you just run in and R->Zhonya's immediately like you can do with Fiddle/Morg/Kennen but Zhonya's is pretty essential as it gives you free healing while you do damage. You don't pop it immediately in a fight because his ult doesn't do enough damage to warrant that. | ||
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