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On January 11 2012 07:39 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 07:01 Craton wrote:
Didn't take long to get back to trying to turn the game more like DotA. I hate DotA, as do many of the millions of players, hence why they don't play DotA.
Being able to farm at towers is a good thing. You're making it a black and white issue of "this game is like DotA" and "this game is not like DotA". It's not that straightforward. I think there are things that LoL can learn from DotA. I also think there are things that DotA can learn from LoL as well.
Dota is not learning anything, and its players dont want it to.
They want it to stay like it is.
Which will be one of the main problems for that game.
Btw i would like to recommend the stream of Yellowpete.
http://www.own3d.tv/live/194946/CLG_Yellowpete
One of the best ADs out there, and the nicest streamer I know. Which also means no drama though, its a question of preferences. 
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United States47024 Posts
On January 11 2012 07:41 Craton wrote:
The only argument there was that it should be variable because dota does it. Everyone so far unanimously went against the idea on its merits.
Well there's also the fact that, as I edited, it's also wrong. The only thing that makes farming under tower harder in DotA is how it's harder to lasthit in general with longer attack animations. As far as the actual mechanics of lasthitting under tower, it's the exact same.
On January 11 2012 07:41 Redox wrote:
Dota is not learning anything, and its players dont want it to.
They want it to stay like it is.
Which will be one of the main problems for that game.
Now you're being blatantly ignorant.
The newest patch in DotA implemented several significant systemic changes geared at trying to make the game pace faster and reduce the average length of games (some people have said it's taken a good 10 minutes off the average length of a game)--which is one of the major points that makes DotA less enjoyable in some ways compared to LoL and HoN. In other words, Icefrog is trying to take a page out of Riot/S2's books.
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On January 11 2012 07:41 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 07:39 TheYango wrote:On January 11 2012 07:01 Craton wrote:
Didn't take long to get back to trying to turn the game more like DotA. I hate DotA, as do many of the millions of players, hence why they don't play DotA.
Being able to farm at towers is a good thing. You're making it a black and white issue of "this game is like DotA" and "this game is not like DotA". It's not that straightforward. I think there are things that LoL can learn from DotA. I also think there are things that DotA can learn from LoL as well. Dota is not learning anything, and its players dont want it to. They want it to stay like it is. Which will be one of the main problems for that game.
Out of DotA, LoL, and HoN, DotA has by FAR had the most changes in the last year, if you don't know anything about the game, don't argue about it.
http://www.playdota.com/changelogs/6.73
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I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that Anivia's extrememly blue buff reliant. If anivia doesn't have any blues through the midgame her threat level drops more than most other APs
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On January 11 2012 07:44 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 07:41 Redox wrote:
Dota is not learning anything, and its players dont want it to.
They want it to stay like it is.
Which will be one of the main problems for that game. Now you're being blatantly ignorant. The newest patch in DotA implemented several significant systemic changes geared at trying to make the game pace faster and reduce the average length of games (some people have said it's taken a good 10 minutes off the average length of a game)--which is one of the major points that makes DotA less enjoyable in some ways compared to LoL and HoN. In other words, Icefrog is trying to take a page out of Riot/S2's books.
Guess you are right about my ignorance then. I was purely speaking from the impression I got from dota players, I dont know the latest patches to the game.
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On January 11 2012 07:47 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 07:44 TheYango wrote:On January 11 2012 07:41 Redox wrote:
Dota is not learning anything, and its players dont want it to.
They want it to stay like it is.
Which will be one of the main problems for that game. Now you're being blatantly ignorant. The newest patch in DotA implemented several significant systemic changes geared at trying to make the game pace faster and reduce the average length of games (some people have said it's taken a good 10 minutes off the average length of a game)--which is one of the major points that makes DotA less enjoyable in some ways compared to LoL and HoN. In other words, Icefrog is trying to take a page out of Riot/S2's books. Guess you are right about my ignorance then. I was purely speaking from the impression I got from dota players, I dont know the latest patches to the game.
DotA 2 is DotA HD remix, but that doesn't mean DotA isn't changing a LOT.
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On January 11 2012 07:41 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 07:39 TheYango wrote:On January 11 2012 07:01 Craton wrote:
Didn't take long to get back to trying to turn the game more like DotA. I hate DotA, as do many of the millions of players, hence why they don't play DotA.
Being able to farm at towers is a good thing. You're making it a black and white issue of "this game is like DotA" and "this game is not like DotA". It's not that straightforward. I think there are things that LoL can learn from DotA. I also think there are things that DotA can learn from LoL as well. Dota is not learning anything, and its players dont want it to. They want it to stay like it is. Which will be one of the main problems for that game. Btw i would like to recommend the stream of Yellowpete. http://www.own3d.tv/live/194946/CLG_YellowpeteOne of the best ADs out there, and the nicest streamer I know. Which also means no drama though, its a question of preferences.
Yea Yellowpete is very good and I like that he plays mostly vayne/kog from what I've seen as I don't like watching graves/trist which seems to be on every other stream I see. (I have bad luck and always check in on chaox/doublelift at the very end of games where they went kog/vayne, but always catch every graves/trist game from the start v_v)
I enjoy watching/playing the first 10-15mins of AD ranges the best
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On January 11 2012 07:48 mr_tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 07:47 Redox wrote:On January 11 2012 07:44 TheYango wrote:On January 11 2012 07:41 Redox wrote:
Dota is not learning anything, and its players dont want it to.
They want it to stay like it is.
Which will be one of the main problems for that game. Now you're being blatantly ignorant. The newest patch in DotA implemented several significant systemic changes geared at trying to make the game pace faster and reduce the average length of games (some people have said it's taken a good 10 minutes off the average length of a game)--which is one of the major points that makes DotA less enjoyable in some ways compared to LoL and HoN. In other words, Icefrog is trying to take a page out of Riot/S2's books. Guess you are right about my ignorance then. I was purely speaking from the impression I got from dota players, I dont know the latest patches to the game. DotA 2 is DotA HD remix, but that doesn't mean DotA isn't changing a LOT.
they first copy dota and then make changes, I don't understand why it's so difficult for people to realize this as icefrog stated it almost 3 years ago
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On January 11 2012 07:49 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 07:48 mr_tolkien wrote:On January 11 2012 07:47 Redox wrote:On January 11 2012 07:44 TheYango wrote:On January 11 2012 07:41 Redox wrote:
Dota is not learning anything, and its players dont want it to.
They want it to stay like it is.
Which will be one of the main problems for that game. Now you're being blatantly ignorant. The newest patch in DotA implemented several significant systemic changes geared at trying to make the game pace faster and reduce the average length of games (some people have said it's taken a good 10 minutes off the average length of a game)--which is one of the major points that makes DotA less enjoyable in some ways compared to LoL and HoN. In other words, Icefrog is trying to take a page out of Riot/S2's books. Guess you are right about my ignorance then. I was purely speaking from the impression I got from dota players, I dont know the latest patches to the game. DotA 2 is DotA HD remix, but that doesn't mean DotA isn't changing a LOT. they first copy dota and then make changes, I don't understand why it's so difficult for people to realize this as icefrog stated it almost 3 years ago
Where has the upcoming changes for dota2? I slammed out like 100-200 games at the start of beta and haven't touched it since
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You don't give Froggen Anivia ever.
I was rofling when he actually used his troll soloq build in a scrim, Spirit Vessage, Warmongs, Sorc shoes, Wota, Abyssal, Archangels
I think he would have crushed even more if he use his proper mejais warmongs build lol.
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On January 11 2012 07:01 BluzMan wrote:
So what is the community's consensus on Volibear? I've ran him several times and I've yet to win solo top with him. He sure seems strong with all those items, but in lane imo he has one of the worst passives (at 30% HP you're ignited and about to be bursted to death for a very long HoT to do anything) and his kit screams "kite" even from melee champions.
I've had a Garen top - Voli jungle - Sivir bot team against me. As Irelia, using the most common build (that isn't triforce rush), and I hated not doing my triforce/shurelya/tanky shit, I missed soooo much kills on a single auto-attack because they'd run faster than me.
Also, Voli ganks on a Garen lane is obnoxious, double speed buff + silence to prevent cc-ing Voli.
In other news, finally managed to play Viktor mid. Against Morgana. As almost all Morgana(s) I see, he didn't play her really well (hell, I almost never saw anyone playing her better than me, and I'm rusty with AP and not really good overall), but I still found it hilarious that while Viktor's got so many hairy matchups, he actually outfarms the oh-so-hated Morgana once his laser can one-shot waves. :D
Also, holy shit is he good with like Morello+blue (for cdr), Rylai, and WotA endgame. I didn't even have deathcap so my AP was something like 450 with death augment, and once the big nukes were spent I was so unkillable, kiting shit all day (and dying whenever Morg would hit Q and I'd fail to dodge).
He's really hard to itemize as a tanky mage if you also want utility and some AP tho. That slot hurts so hard...
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On January 11 2012 07:39 zer0das wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 07:02 Two_DoWn wrote:On January 11 2012 06:58 Flakes wrote:I think one of the biggest causes of lane passivity is that it's way too easy to farm 100% of creeps at tower. In dota the less predictable tower damage and stronger creeps made pushing more rewarding than it is in LoL, where pushing usually ends in getting ganked without making a dent in the other guy's farm + Show Spoiler + I have no problem with CS at tower being predictable. It separates good players from bad. Although a cool change that I suggested a while back that I think would be cool- any creep that gets killed by a tower instead of a player gives half exp or something like that instead of full exp. That way you can be rewarded for pushing safely against someone, while at the same time a good player will be forced to use their knowledge of farming cs at tower to stay caught up in terms of level. I think that solution is better than just making shit more random. Make Malzahar, Sivir, and Nidalee more of a pain in the arse than they already are...HMM. How about no. If that change were implemented (and I hope it isn't), you'd have to seriously curtail the pushing power of a lot of champions or it isn't even remotely fair.
Only you just listed 3 champions with severe flaws. Malz is pure single target burst and not a very strong mid pick, sivir can easily be countered by graves or cait bot lane (not to mention a 2v2 lane makes freezing and last hitting a lot easier), and nid cant clear till 6, and is outclassed by a lot of champions top lane.
If you REALLY wanted to make the argument against it, it would be that Sion and morg would be too strong, but even then the answer to most champs who push hard is ALREADY that you need to pick someone who can push just as hard or have a jungle gank them a lot.
And in order to keep a lane permanently at tower you will be forward in your lane, and will be open to a gank. I think it is quite a nice trade off between what we have now where pushing is just pure suicide and making it so that you HAVE to push a lane.
Not to mention it allows interesting counterpicks. They pick a pusher? Grab irelia and get every last cs at tower while they are open to ganks all day long. Enemy picked nasus? Grab a pusher and force him to blow mana and q cooldown to try to keep up with the waves.
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On January 11 2012 08:10 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 07:39 zer0das wrote:On January 11 2012 07:02 Two_DoWn wrote:On January 11 2012 06:58 Flakes wrote:I think one of the biggest causes of lane passivity is that it's way too easy to farm 100% of creeps at tower. In dota the less predictable tower damage and stronger creeps made pushing more rewarding than it is in LoL, where pushing usually ends in getting ganked without making a dent in the other guy's farm + Show Spoiler + I have no problem with CS at tower being predictable. It separates good players from bad. Although a cool change that I suggested a while back that I think would be cool- any creep that gets killed by a tower instead of a player gives half exp or something like that instead of full exp. That way you can be rewarded for pushing safely against someone, while at the same time a good player will be forced to use their knowledge of farming cs at tower to stay caught up in terms of level. I think that solution is better than just making shit more random. Make Malzahar, Sivir, and Nidalee more of a pain in the arse than they already are...HMM. How about no. If that change were implemented (and I hope it isn't), you'd have to seriously curtail the pushing power of a lot of champions or it isn't even remotely fair. Only you just listed 3 champions with severe flaws. Malz is pure single target burst and not a very strong mid pick, sivir can easily be countered by graves or cait bot lane (not to mention a 2v2 lane makes freezing and last hitting a lot easier), and nid cant clear till 6, and is outclassed by a lot of champions top lane. If you REALLY wanted to make the argument against it, it would be that Sion and morg would be too strong, but even then the answer to most champs who push hard is ALREADY that you need to pick someone who can push just as hard or have a jungle gank them a lot. And in order to keep a lane permanently at tower you will be forward in your lane, and will be open to a gank. I think it is quite a nice trade off between what we have now where pushing is just pure suicide and making it so that you HAVE to push a lane. Not to mention it allows interesting counterpicks. They pick a pusher? Grab irelia and get every last cs at tower while they are open to ganks all day long. Enemy picked nasus? Grab a pusher and force him to blow mana and q cooldown to try to keep up with the waves.
Caitlyn to counter Sivir? It's the other way around, spell shield nullifies every single one of Caitlyn's spells (they all have long-wind up animations making them hilariously easy to block), and the range advantage doesn't mean much because Sivir can still outrange Caitlyn with well-placed ricochets and boomerangs. Once Sivir gets in range of Caitlyn it's impossible for her to get away.
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On January 11 2012 08:14 Alzadar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 08:10 Two_DoWn wrote:On January 11 2012 07:39 zer0das wrote:On January 11 2012 07:02 Two_DoWn wrote:On January 11 2012 06:58 Flakes wrote:I think one of the biggest causes of lane passivity is that it's way too easy to farm 100% of creeps at tower. In dota the less predictable tower damage and stronger creeps made pushing more rewarding than it is in LoL, where pushing usually ends in getting ganked without making a dent in the other guy's farm + Show Spoiler + I have no problem with CS at tower being predictable. It separates good players from bad. Although a cool change that I suggested a while back that I think would be cool- any creep that gets killed by a tower instead of a player gives half exp or something like that instead of full exp. That way you can be rewarded for pushing safely against someone, while at the same time a good player will be forced to use their knowledge of farming cs at tower to stay caught up in terms of level. I think that solution is better than just making shit more random. Make Malzahar, Sivir, and Nidalee more of a pain in the arse than they already are...HMM. How about no. If that change were implemented (and I hope it isn't), you'd have to seriously curtail the pushing power of a lot of champions or it isn't even remotely fair. Only you just listed 3 champions with severe flaws. Malz is pure single target burst and not a very strong mid pick, sivir can easily be countered by graves or cait bot lane (not to mention a 2v2 lane makes freezing and last hitting a lot easier), and nid cant clear till 6, and is outclassed by a lot of champions top lane. If you REALLY wanted to make the argument against it, it would be that Sion and morg would be too strong, but even then the answer to most champs who push hard is ALREADY that you need to pick someone who can push just as hard or have a jungle gank them a lot. And in order to keep a lane permanently at tower you will be forward in your lane, and will be open to a gank. I think it is quite a nice trade off between what we have now where pushing is just pure suicide and making it so that you HAVE to push a lane. Not to mention it allows interesting counterpicks. They pick a pusher? Grab irelia and get every last cs at tower while they are open to ganks all day long. Enemy picked nasus? Grab a pusher and force him to blow mana and q cooldown to try to keep up with the waves. Caitlyn to counter Sivir? It's the other way around, spell shield nullifies every single one of Caitlyn's spells (they all have long-wind up animations making them hilariously easy to block), and the range advantage doesn't mean much because Sivir can still outrange Caitlyn with well-placed ricochets and boomerangs. Once Sivir gets in range of Caitlyn it's impossible for her to get away.
I was referring to being able to push the lane back easily, not fight each other when I said counter.
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I'm a little confused about how to freeze the lane. My understanding is that you wait as long as possible to get the last hit, and tank the wave before they can get to the turret. But doesn't that still end up pushing the wave back, since you're taking damage instead of your allied minions and sometimes have to autoattack a bit so that they attack you instead of going to the tower? I would think that eventually the wave will push back to the opponent's side, although it would push slower than it would if you let the minions get attacked by your tower.
Also, what do people mean by winning or losing lane? Like what's the distinction between being behind your lane opponent and losing your lane?
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I forgot Xin Zhao existed
he still sucks
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you leave like 5 creeps after every time your wave dies and no it won't ever push, still you can just about never do it as it makes you incredibly vulnerable to harrass and ganks, but it's okay if they kill your tower early and you have the part of the map decently warded.
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On January 11 2012 08:38 danana wrote:
I'm a little confused about how to freeze the lane. My understanding is that you wait as long as possible to get the last hit, and tank the wave before they can get to the turret. But doesn't that still end up pushing the wave back, since you're taking damage instead of your allied minions and sometimes have to autoattack a bit so that they attack you instead of going to the tower? I would think that eventually the wave will push back to the opponent's side, although it would push slower than it would if you let the minions get attacked by your tower.
Also, what do people mean by winning or losing lane? Like what's the distinction between being behind your lane opponent and losing your lane?
Basically freezing the lane depends on the direction it is heading. If it is coming towards you, you generally want to keep 2-3 minions alive from each wave for when the next wave arrives to counter the natural pushing that last hitting will generate. That means you typically have to tank creep agro for a few seconds before your minions arrive, then wait as long as possible before last hitting so that you can avoid pushing the lane too hard.
If the lane is pushing away from you and you want to freeze it you basically cant. You either need to push the lane to the enemy tower so that you get the 2-3 creeps built up so the lane pushes back or hope the enemy laner does it for you.
Winning a lane basically comes down to cs, tower, and kills. In a 0-0 lane, whoever has the most cs won the lane. A kill typically counts for about 12-15 cs (roughly I think), so you can factor that in. Tower is a bit more difficult, cuz while you lose map control if your tower drops, if the enemy doesnt do anything with that, and instead lets you farm and you outfarm them, you can still win the lane, or if you freeze the lane so that they have to extend to farm and you kill them, then you can come back and win.
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On January 11 2012 08:44 Shikyo wrote:
you leave like 5 creeps after every time your wave dies and no it won't ever push, still you can just about never do it as it makes you incredibly vulnerable to harrass and ganks, but it's okay if they kill your tower early and you have the part of the map decently warded.
You can force their lane to push as well, by clearing fast one wave. Your creeps will tank the tower a little and freeze the opponent's creeps, making your next wave tank the tower. This will result in their lane pushing as it wall stack 2 or free ranged plus a normal wave. It's very powerful early game with strong early 1v1s like GP if you don't fear a gank.
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On January 11 2012 08:10 Two_DoWn wrote:
Malz is pure single target burst and not a very strong mid pick...
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Malzahar isn't pure single target burst. 2 of his spells are AoE, arguably 3. He certainly has problems, but Leblanc syndrome isn't one of them.
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EPT
