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Want to rage about your latest loss? Use the QQ thread. If you whine in GD, you'll get warned. |
Would it be plausible to reduce or eliminate the life steal component of wriggle's? Since the jungle heals the jungler already, they don't really need it, but the madred's proc is important. This could help reduce ridiculous sustainability top, but remain strong for pushing, map objectives, and a free ward.
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On December 01 2011 09:08 jcarlsoniv wrote:
Would it be plausible to reduce or eliminate the life steal component of wriggle's? Since the jungle heals the jungler already, they don't really need it, but the madred's proc is important. This could help reduce ridiculous sustainability top, but remain strong for pushing, map objectives, and a free ward.
They'll probably reduce it to something like 16% or so (1% more than unfarmed Bloodthirstier and 4% more than vamp scepter). I doubt they'd just take it away completely and even if they did top laners who get Wriggle's would probably just pick up a vamp scepter when they go to get their gp10 items. Build vamp into BT later in the game or just sell it. Wouldn't really solve any of the sustainability problems imo.
edit:
Damn, I still thought Wriggle's was 18% lifesteal. How many patches behind am I?
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On December 01 2011 08:52 Two_DoWn wrote:
I think the big things are just a slight increase on gold and exp to make up for the fact you have to waste more time walking aound or reduce the punishment of missing a gank, and for them to do a few more adjustments on wriggles/madreds to help make it better for single target junglers.
Like IMO increasing the proc % on wriggles/madreds would basically fix this. Its a nerf for laning (cuz it would auto push lane) while at the same time not actually be useful for aoe clearers since they dont build wriggles anyway.
Edit-oooh look, I'm a scout.
Yeah I agree, the wriggles/madred proc nerf was probably off point. I can kind of see their intent, they thought single target champs would clear too fast with the weaker creeps, but it turns out that isn't true. I do like that it brings wriggles junglers in line with the aoe junglers in baron/dragon attempts.
There are specific issues like low gold/xp in jungle and the aoe/single target imbalance but otherwise I really like this patch. It's a better system overall even if particular things are wrong with it.
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Skarnar rapes the new jungle so hard. I hit 6 before my mid did. LoL!
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On December 01 2011 09:08 jcarlsoniv wrote:
Would it be plausible to reduce or eliminate the life steal component of wriggle's? Since the jungle heals the jungler already, they don't really need it, but the madred's proc is important. This could help reduce ridiculous sustainability top, but remain strong for pushing, map objectives, and a free ward.
Nobody would build wriggles without the lifesteal, everyone would just stack doran's blades instead. The proc is pretty insignificant, and atma's is a much better source of armor + damage.
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On December 01 2011 08:46 GreenManalishi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 08:36 Seiuchi wrote:On December 01 2011 08:31 GreenManalishi wrote:On December 01 2011 08:12 CeriseCherries wrote:On December 01 2011 07:32 lurked wrote:On December 01 2011 06:56 Shiragaku wrote:
Did the Jungle Hotfixes go in yet? Just tested, no. wait are there going to be jungle hotfixes/and what o.o The new jungle isn't THAT bad, I've played 5 games now as Phoenix Udyr, and i've been level 4 by ~3:47 every game, and usually level 6 by ~7:00 , which is pretty standard to the old jungle prior to the mastery changes. It is annoying to relearn, and is certainly not better, but it isn't as horrible as people are making it out to be. Last game, their team didn't have a jungle, and with the recent xp boosts and nerf in health, farming the other teams buffs seems stronger than before. Taking their red/blue is ridiculously easy and rewarding I managed to farm 2k gold and level 8 before going back. Ganking does cost more than before, so no more camping in their bushes waiting for an opportunity, I just run up and immediately commit, and just hope the person in lane gives me support. Boots/3 is more or less a necessity now in the jungle, since moving between camps is is where you spend most of your time. Phoenix Udyr is in the AoE farm zone with Skarner/Shyv/Malphite. They're like the only ones not dramatically weakened by the new jungle. Usually one game as him as an example shows little understanding of the problems of the jungle changes. 5 games, but I agree it isn't indicative of the overall health of the jungle. The problems posed by AoE champion clear times isn't unique to the current jungle. The old jungle had big problems with the AoE champions like Udyr, Skarner, and Shyv. Since the camps respawned slower they couldn't as dramatically out level single target junglers like GP and Trundle by as much, but they could exert much more presence onto the map, as well as take advantage of counter-jungling opportunities. With the new jungle, the speed benefit of AoE junglers compounds on itself, meaning faster junglers gain gold and xp exponentially faster, which is a problem, but it isn't as big of an issue as it is being made out to be. What I would like changed is for the jungle creeps to take reduced damage from AoE abilities, just like Yorick's ghouls. This will slow down Shyv, Skarner, and Udyr, while leveling the field for other potential junglers. I really want Poppy to be able to jungle, just because of how amazing her counter jungling and roaming is.
AoE junglers weren't a problem in the old jungle. We didn't even have the terms "AoE jungler" or "Single-target jungler" in the old patch because it wasn't a meaningful distinction.
Reducing the damage camps take from AoE isn't a solution because it just puts AoE junglers into the same horrifically bad position as those without good AoE. The problem isn't that AoE junglers are super overpowered in the new jungle, it's that any jungler who can't keep up with the new spawn rates falls behind and has no reasonable means of catching up.
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in terms of actual sustain top lane, wriggles in and of itself isn't that ridiculous. it gives 15% lifesteal, whereas a vamp scepter alone itself gives 12%. its just that the armor and ad have synergy with most bruiser vs bruiser matchups, as well as giving additional pushing power and free ward (the pushing power being less of a big deal since most toplaners have some sort of aoe clear at this point). removing the vamp wouldn't do too much, in other words, because you could just buy an additional vamp scepter, and the difference wouldn't be huge.
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On December 01 2011 09:16 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 08:46 GreenManalishi wrote:On December 01 2011 08:36 Seiuchi wrote:On December 01 2011 08:31 GreenManalishi wrote:On December 01 2011 08:12 CeriseCherries wrote:On December 01 2011 07:32 lurked wrote:On December 01 2011 06:56 Shiragaku wrote:
Did the Jungle Hotfixes go in yet? Just tested, no. wait are there going to be jungle hotfixes/and what o.o The new jungle isn't THAT bad, I've played 5 games now as Phoenix Udyr, and i've been level 4 by ~3:47 every game, and usually level 6 by ~7:00 , which is pretty standard to the old jungle prior to the mastery changes. It is annoying to relearn, and is certainly not better, but it isn't as horrible as people are making it out to be. Last game, their team didn't have a jungle, and with the recent xp boosts and nerf in health, farming the other teams buffs seems stronger than before. Taking their red/blue is ridiculously easy and rewarding I managed to farm 2k gold and level 8 before going back. Ganking does cost more than before, so no more camping in their bushes waiting for an opportunity, I just run up and immediately commit, and just hope the person in lane gives me support. Boots/3 is more or less a necessity now in the jungle, since moving between camps is is where you spend most of your time. Phoenix Udyr is in the AoE farm zone with Skarner/Shyv/Malphite. They're like the only ones not dramatically weakened by the new jungle. Usually one game as him as an example shows little understanding of the problems of the jungle changes. 5 games, but I agree it isn't indicative of the overall health of the jungle. The problems posed by AoE champion clear times isn't unique to the current jungle. The old jungle had big problems with the AoE champions like Udyr, Skarner, and Shyv. Since the camps respawned slower they couldn't as dramatically out level single target junglers like GP and Trundle by as much, but they could exert much more presence onto the map, as well as take advantage of counter-jungling opportunities. With the new jungle, the speed benefit of AoE junglers compounds on itself, meaning faster junglers gain gold and xp exponentially faster, which is a problem, but it isn't as big of an issue as it is being made out to be. What I would like changed is for the jungle creeps to take reduced damage from AoE abilities, just like Yorick's ghouls. This will slow down Shyv, Skarner, and Udyr, while leveling the field for other potential junglers. I really want Poppy to be able to jungle, just because of how amazing her counter jungling and roaming is. AoE junglers weren't a problem in the old jungle. We didn't even have the terms "AoE jungler" or "Single-target jungler" in the old patch because it wasn't a meaningful distinction. Reducing the damage camps take from AoE isn't a solution because it just puts AoE junglers into the same horrifically bad position as those without good AoE. The problem isn't that AoE junglers are super overpowered in the new jungle, it's that any jungler who can't keep up with the new spawn rates falls behind and has no reasonable means of catching up.
Imo is where does this put single target junglrs? Obvious meta-shift is going towards aoe jungler, but what happens to single target junglers? do they just end up disappearing into the dust? I can't help but think that the new jungle changes just make a lot of champions handicapped...
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first time shaco
team runs double jungle because i failed and couldn't switch my pick due to lag
I go 9-3-7, enemy team surrenders at 20
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On December 01 2011 09:20 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 09:16 Seuss wrote:On December 01 2011 08:46 GreenManalishi wrote:On December 01 2011 08:36 Seiuchi wrote:On December 01 2011 08:31 GreenManalishi wrote:On December 01 2011 08:12 CeriseCherries wrote:On December 01 2011 07:32 lurked wrote:On December 01 2011 06:56 Shiragaku wrote:
Did the Jungle Hotfixes go in yet? Just tested, no. wait are there going to be jungle hotfixes/and what o.o The new jungle isn't THAT bad, I've played 5 games now as Phoenix Udyr, and i've been level 4 by ~3:47 every game, and usually level 6 by ~7:00 , which is pretty standard to the old jungle prior to the mastery changes. It is annoying to relearn, and is certainly not better, but it isn't as horrible as people are making it out to be. Last game, their team didn't have a jungle, and with the recent xp boosts and nerf in health, farming the other teams buffs seems stronger than before. Taking their red/blue is ridiculously easy and rewarding I managed to farm 2k gold and level 8 before going back. Ganking does cost more than before, so no more camping in their bushes waiting for an opportunity, I just run up and immediately commit, and just hope the person in lane gives me support. Boots/3 is more or less a necessity now in the jungle, since moving between camps is is where you spend most of your time. Phoenix Udyr is in the AoE farm zone with Skarner/Shyv/Malphite. They're like the only ones not dramatically weakened by the new jungle. Usually one game as him as an example shows little understanding of the problems of the jungle changes. 5 games, but I agree it isn't indicative of the overall health of the jungle. The problems posed by AoE champion clear times isn't unique to the current jungle. The old jungle had big problems with the AoE champions like Udyr, Skarner, and Shyv. Since the camps respawned slower they couldn't as dramatically out level single target junglers like GP and Trundle by as much, but they could exert much more presence onto the map, as well as take advantage of counter-jungling opportunities. With the new jungle, the speed benefit of AoE junglers compounds on itself, meaning faster junglers gain gold and xp exponentially faster, which is a problem, but it isn't as big of an issue as it is being made out to be. What I would like changed is for the jungle creeps to take reduced damage from AoE abilities, just like Yorick's ghouls. This will slow down Shyv, Skarner, and Udyr, while leveling the field for other potential junglers. I really want Poppy to be able to jungle, just because of how amazing her counter jungling and roaming is. AoE junglers weren't a problem in the old jungle. We didn't even have the terms "AoE jungler" or "Single-target jungler" in the old patch because it wasn't a meaningful distinction. Reducing the damage camps take from AoE isn't a solution because it just puts AoE junglers into the same horrifically bad position as those without good AoE. The problem isn't that AoE junglers are super overpowered in the new jungle, it's that any jungler who can't keep up with the new spawn rates falls behind and has no reasonable means of catching up. Imo is where does this put single target junglrs? Obvious meta-shift is going towards aoe jungler, but what happens to single target junglers? do they just end up disappearing into the dust? I can't help but think that the new jungle changes just make a lot of champions handicapped...
Nerf Skarner and Udyr. See what happens to Shyvana, she scales bad into late game and can't gank so while she might get ahead of other junglers I dunno if she's too strong. But hey, maybe nerf her too.
There's like three, maybe four, good AoE junglers. If they really do surge out in front of the pack even after the jungle hotfix Riot will probably nerf them rather than let every jungler that isn't Shyv/Skarner/Udyr fall behind.
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On December 01 2011 09:34 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 09:20 wei2coolman wrote:On December 01 2011 09:16 Seuss wrote:On December 01 2011 08:46 GreenManalishi wrote:On December 01 2011 08:36 Seiuchi wrote:On December 01 2011 08:31 GreenManalishi wrote:On December 01 2011 08:12 CeriseCherries wrote:On December 01 2011 07:32 lurked wrote:On December 01 2011 06:56 Shiragaku wrote:
Did the Jungle Hotfixes go in yet? Just tested, no. wait are there going to be jungle hotfixes/and what o.o The new jungle isn't THAT bad, I've played 5 games now as Phoenix Udyr, and i've been level 4 by ~3:47 every game, and usually level 6 by ~7:00 , which is pretty standard to the old jungle prior to the mastery changes. It is annoying to relearn, and is certainly not better, but it isn't as horrible as people are making it out to be. Last game, their team didn't have a jungle, and with the recent xp boosts and nerf in health, farming the other teams buffs seems stronger than before. Taking their red/blue is ridiculously easy and rewarding I managed to farm 2k gold and level 8 before going back. Ganking does cost more than before, so no more camping in their bushes waiting for an opportunity, I just run up and immediately commit, and just hope the person in lane gives me support. Boots/3 is more or less a necessity now in the jungle, since moving between camps is is where you spend most of your time. Phoenix Udyr is in the AoE farm zone with Skarner/Shyv/Malphite. They're like the only ones not dramatically weakened by the new jungle. Usually one game as him as an example shows little understanding of the problems of the jungle changes. 5 games, but I agree it isn't indicative of the overall health of the jungle. The problems posed by AoE champion clear times isn't unique to the current jungle. The old jungle had big problems with the AoE champions like Udyr, Skarner, and Shyv. Since the camps respawned slower they couldn't as dramatically out level single target junglers like GP and Trundle by as much, but they could exert much more presence onto the map, as well as take advantage of counter-jungling opportunities. With the new jungle, the speed benefit of AoE junglers compounds on itself, meaning faster junglers gain gold and xp exponentially faster, which is a problem, but it isn't as big of an issue as it is being made out to be. What I would like changed is for the jungle creeps to take reduced damage from AoE abilities, just like Yorick's ghouls. This will slow down Shyv, Skarner, and Udyr, while leveling the field for other potential junglers. I really want Poppy to be able to jungle, just because of how amazing her counter jungling and roaming is. AoE junglers weren't a problem in the old jungle. We didn't even have the terms "AoE jungler" or "Single-target jungler" in the old patch because it wasn't a meaningful distinction. Reducing the damage camps take from AoE isn't a solution because it just puts AoE junglers into the same horrifically bad position as those without good AoE. The problem isn't that AoE junglers are super overpowered in the new jungle, it's that any jungler who can't keep up with the new spawn rates falls behind and has no reasonable means of catching up. Imo is where does this put single target junglrs? Obvious meta-shift is going towards aoe jungler, but what happens to single target junglers? do they just end up disappearing into the dust? I can't help but think that the new jungle changes just make a lot of champions handicapped... Nerf Skarner and Udyr. See what happens to Shyvana, she scales bad into late game and can't gank so while she might get ahead of other junglers I dunno if she's too strong. But hey, maybe nerf her too. There's like three, maybe four, good AoE junglers. If they really do surge out in front of the pack even after the jungle hotfix Riot will probably nerf them rather than let every jungler that isn't Shyv/Skarner/Udyr fall behind.
I think the point is you dont want to force everyone to suck instead of finding a way to make it so that everyone can find a way to be decent.
ATM AOE clearers are the only ones who feel less shitty about the new patch. Why would you make it so EVERY jungle feels shitty about it?
Much easier to just keep fucking with the jungle till you balance it back to a similar scale as before.
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Yiruru playing Mordekaiser against Westrice on Westrice's stream. He's laning against Fizz. Hue hue hue.
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So I think I figured out why I am so inconstant when playing Ranked.
I am really good at capitalizing on opponent mistakes, but I am not good enough to win when they don't make any (or at least only a few).
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They are making millions of mistakes and you are simply not perceiving them. I'm not even sure what the concept of someone not making mistakes all game means. People have come close to playing a 'perfect game', at least mentally, in quake, but they haven't actually done it and the concept of perfect mechanical execution doesn't even come into that. It's impossible. League of legends games are like three times longer, there is no way people aren't making exploitable mistakes at any elo or in any tournament game for 30 minutes.
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Shaco still rapes in new jungle. he doesn't care about camp respawns. gank all day erryday.
Sure it completely crushes the counter junglign side of him (which was awesome), but he was broken anyway, so it's a needed nerf.
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On December 01 2011 09:16 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 08:46 GreenManalishi wrote:On December 01 2011 08:36 Seiuchi wrote:On December 01 2011 08:31 GreenManalishi wrote:On December 01 2011 08:12 CeriseCherries wrote:On December 01 2011 07:32 lurked wrote:On December 01 2011 06:56 Shiragaku wrote:
Did the Jungle Hotfixes go in yet? Just tested, no. wait are there going to be jungle hotfixes/and what o.o The new jungle isn't THAT bad, I've played 5 games now as Phoenix Udyr, and i've been level 4 by ~3:47 every game, and usually level 6 by ~7:00 , which is pretty standard to the old jungle prior to the mastery changes. It is annoying to relearn, and is certainly not better, but it isn't as horrible as people are making it out to be. Last game, their team didn't have a jungle, and with the recent xp boosts and nerf in health, farming the other teams buffs seems stronger than before. Taking their red/blue is ridiculously easy and rewarding I managed to farm 2k gold and level 8 before going back. Ganking does cost more than before, so no more camping in their bushes waiting for an opportunity, I just run up and immediately commit, and just hope the person in lane gives me support. Boots/3 is more or less a necessity now in the jungle, since moving between camps is is where you spend most of your time. Phoenix Udyr is in the AoE farm zone with Skarner/Shyv/Malphite. They're like the only ones not dramatically weakened by the new jungle. Usually one game as him as an example shows little understanding of the problems of the jungle changes. 5 games, but I agree it isn't indicative of the overall health of the jungle. The problems posed by AoE champion clear times isn't unique to the current jungle. The old jungle had big problems with the AoE champions like Udyr, Skarner, and Shyv. Since the camps respawned slower they couldn't as dramatically out level single target junglers like GP and Trundle by as much, but they could exert much more presence onto the map, as well as take advantage of counter-jungling opportunities. With the new jungle, the speed benefit of AoE junglers compounds on itself, meaning faster junglers gain gold and xp exponentially faster, which is a problem, but it isn't as big of an issue as it is being made out to be. What I would like changed is for the jungle creeps to take reduced damage from AoE abilities, just like Yorick's ghouls. This will slow down Shyv, Skarner, and Udyr, while leveling the field for other potential junglers. I really want Poppy to be able to jungle, just because of how amazing her counter jungling and roaming is. AoE junglers weren't a problem in the old jungle. We didn't even have the terms "AoE jungler" or "Single-target jungler" in the old patch because it wasn't a meaningful distinction. Reducing the damage camps take from AoE isn't a solution because it just puts AoE junglers into the same horrifically bad position as those without good AoE. The problem isn't that AoE junglers are super overpowered in the new jungle, it's that any jungler who can't keep up with the new spawn rates falls behind and has no reasonable means of catching up.
It has always been a useful distinction, and the junglers with super clear speeds were seeing a lot more use prior to the patch than junglers with slower clears. Why do you think GP had fallen out of favor, while Skarner/Rammus/Udyr were top picks? Saint was playing Shyv almost every game prior to the patch, and had ~80% win rate with her, simply because she has a crazy fast clear speed and tons of free stats.
Reducing the affect of AoE damage seems like the easiest solution to rebalancing the jungle, since it means that individual champions don't need to be adjusted, just the % reduction of AoE damage to jungle mobs. They can then rebalance the xp and gold without having to worry about junglers out leveling and farming solo lanes. Seems like the easiest fix in my opinion, if Riot is adamant about keeping these 1 minute respawns.
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i just downloaded a patch, is this the change to the jungle?
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On December 01 2011 10:23 GreenManalishi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 09:16 Seuss wrote:On December 01 2011 08:46 GreenManalishi wrote:On December 01 2011 08:36 Seiuchi wrote:On December 01 2011 08:31 GreenManalishi wrote:On December 01 2011 08:12 CeriseCherries wrote:On December 01 2011 07:32 lurked wrote:On December 01 2011 06:56 Shiragaku wrote:
Did the Jungle Hotfixes go in yet? Just tested, no. wait are there going to be jungle hotfixes/and what o.o The new jungle isn't THAT bad, I've played 5 games now as Phoenix Udyr, and i've been level 4 by ~3:47 every game, and usually level 6 by ~7:00 , which is pretty standard to the old jungle prior to the mastery changes. It is annoying to relearn, and is certainly not better, but it isn't as horrible as people are making it out to be. Last game, their team didn't have a jungle, and with the recent xp boosts and nerf in health, farming the other teams buffs seems stronger than before. Taking their red/blue is ridiculously easy and rewarding I managed to farm 2k gold and level 8 before going back. Ganking does cost more than before, so no more camping in their bushes waiting for an opportunity, I just run up and immediately commit, and just hope the person in lane gives me support. Boots/3 is more or less a necessity now in the jungle, since moving between camps is is where you spend most of your time. Phoenix Udyr is in the AoE farm zone with Skarner/Shyv/Malphite. They're like the only ones not dramatically weakened by the new jungle. Usually one game as him as an example shows little understanding of the problems of the jungle changes. 5 games, but I agree it isn't indicative of the overall health of the jungle. The problems posed by AoE champion clear times isn't unique to the current jungle. The old jungle had big problems with the AoE champions like Udyr, Skarner, and Shyv. Since the camps respawned slower they couldn't as dramatically out level single target junglers like GP and Trundle by as much, but they could exert much more presence onto the map, as well as take advantage of counter-jungling opportunities. With the new jungle, the speed benefit of AoE junglers compounds on itself, meaning faster junglers gain gold and xp exponentially faster, which is a problem, but it isn't as big of an issue as it is being made out to be. What I would like changed is for the jungle creeps to take reduced damage from AoE abilities, just like Yorick's ghouls. This will slow down Shyv, Skarner, and Udyr, while leveling the field for other potential junglers. I really want Poppy to be able to jungle, just because of how amazing her counter jungling and roaming is. AoE junglers weren't a problem in the old jungle. We didn't even have the terms "AoE jungler" or "Single-target jungler" in the old patch because it wasn't a meaningful distinction. Reducing the damage camps take from AoE isn't a solution because it just puts AoE junglers into the same horrifically bad position as those without good AoE. The problem isn't that AoE junglers are super overpowered in the new jungle, it's that any jungler who can't keep up with the new spawn rates falls behind and has no reasonable means of catching up. It has always been a useful distinction, and the junglers with super clear speeds were seeing a lot more use prior to the patch than junglers with slower clears. Why do you think GP had fallen out of favor, while Skarner/Rammus/Udyr were top picks? Saint was playing Shyv almost every game prior to the patch, and had ~80% win rate with her, simply because she has a crazy fast clear speed and tons of free stats. Reducing the affect of AoE damage seems like the easiest solution to rebalancing the jungle, since it means that individual champions don't need to be adjusted, just the % reduction of AoE damage to jungle mobs. They can then rebalance the xp and gold without having to worry about junglers out leveling and farming solo lanes. Seems like the easiest fix in my opinion, if Riot is adamant about keeping these 1 minute respawns.
the thing is
buffs are easier to take now and worth significantly more compared to the rest of the jungle
so if you have trouble clearing the small guys, just pressure the lanes and the enemy buff creeps
also where's the olaf love, this jungle change puts him back to "highly playable"
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To whoever posted that Shaco route a couple pages back that gives you dbl buff and level 2 at 2 min... thank you. So much fun!
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EPT
