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[Patch 1.0.0.130: Volibear] General Discussion - Page 202

Forum Index > LoL General
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Want to rage about your latest loss?
Use the QQ thread.
If you whine in GD, you'll get warned.
Two_DoWn
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States13684 Posts
December 13 2011 00:30 GMT
#4021
Fast oracles pisses me off so much when im on the other team, but I never actually do it because it always feels like such a huge risk.
"What is the air speed velocity of an unladen courier?" "Dire or Radiant?"
Seuss
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States10536 Posts
December 13 2011 00:45 GMT
#4022
On December 13 2011 08:33 Two_DoWn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 13 2011 08:25 Seuss wrote:
On December 13 2011 08:15 Two_DoWn wrote:
On December 13 2011 08:13 Navi wrote:
but i think its agreed that they are buffs, im sure most tf players will be glad to see them

Oh definitly. This is one of the rare cases where Riot comes out and says "oh look at these buffs!" and they ACTUALLY buffed the character. I'm just not sold they actually, ya know, fix anything.


What does TF need fixed? He may not be your Brand/Annie/Xerath style AP, but as long as your team knows to avoid a 4v5 while you split push or just hang back and poke with you he's strong. His ult is also a strong counter to Vayne and Akali.

Note: I do not play a whole lot of TF. This is just my understanding of his situation:

Basically his issue has always been that his laning is actually pretty piss poor against a lot of ap characters. Anyone who wants to be slightly aggressive can generally out trade tf. The thing is that it used to be fine- you traded the pretty bad lane for the ability to fuck with everything on the map. Then they went ahead and got rid of the only thing that actually made you want to play him and put up with his shit laning.

The big thing is going to be the range buff. If its sizable enough to let him actually trade PAC with enemy spells, I think he will be in a great spot. If it cant, well, he is going to be in the same spot he is now.

And I have a feeling its really not going to be enough. They probably are gonna slap 25 range on him and call it a day, when he really needs to go from 510 to something like 575. It isnt enough for him to match other casters at 550- he needs to be longer because he has to rely on his auto to land his spells. (Although I will be honest- I do not know what the spell to ad range conversion is, and you definitely do not want tf outranging spells)


The spell/auto-attack range issue came up in the past couple of months due to a perceived issue with Orianna. Auto-attacks measure range from the edge of one model to the edge of another. Spellcasts (including skillshots) measure from the center of one model to the center of the other. Here's the relevant thread: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=16700767#16700767

From that we can see that the difference is easily 300+ range (at the time of that thread Orianna's Q range was 800, and her auto attack range was 525). So TF already has an effective "spell" range near 800 on PAC (maybe, this depends a lot on models and I haven't tested it empirically). Theoretically he outranges Annie's Disintegrate, Kassadin's Void Sphere and Brand's Conflagration already.

I haven't really had many AP matchups on TF where I felt like I was doing "piss poor". I can see a few specific champions being problematic though, so it may just be that I've been encountering bad players or ones who just weren't familiar with TF.
"I am not able to carry all this people alone, for they are too heavy for me." -Moses (Numbers 11:14)
Navi
Profile Joined November 2009
5286 Posts
December 13 2011 00:53 GMT
#4023
wait what? when you say PAC do you mean his red card (in which case yes you can hit red card on a creep and hit the enemy champion, but this is very inefficient mana-damage wise early game)? because gold and blue does not have 800 effective range, because PAC is an autoattack modifier
Hey! Listen!
r.Evo
Profile Joined August 2006
Germany14080 Posts
December 13 2011 00:57 GMT
#4024
On December 12 2011 23:02 Haemonculus wrote:
Aegis is fantastic. There was some post on reddit a few months ago doing like all the math and it's one of the most cost efficient items in the game by itself, and I think becomes the *most* gold-efficient defense item once you give the aura to even a single teammate.

I also never really understood how good the active on Randuins was until I started playing Malphite and trying to time it between ground slam. Slow motion enemy team wololo.


Malphite is such a boss against anyone who loves AS. I was jungling Malph the other day vs Tryn top, Skarner Jungle and Vayne as their AD. They didn't have a lot of fun in teamfights. =D

Randuins+his E is so fucking awesome.


But shhh, don't tell anyone.
"We don't make mistakes here, we call it happy little accidents." ~Bob Ross
Seuss
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States10536 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-13 01:02:33
December 13 2011 01:01 GMT
#4025
On December 13 2011 09:53 Navi wrote:
wait what? when you say PAC do you mean his red card (in which case yes you can hit red card on a creep and hit the enemy champion, but this is very inefficient mana-damage wise early game)? because gold and blue does not have 800 effective range, because PAC is an autoattack modifier


I'm working off the big brouhaha that occurred a month or so ago because Orianna's Q was purportedly overnerfed. It was supposed to go from 900 range to 800, but someone noticed that if Orianna was attacking a minion at her maximum auto-attack range it would simultaneously be outside of the range of her Q. Since her auto attack range was 525 at the time the person concluded that her Q range had been overnerfed to 500. In fact, the issue was simply that spell and auto-attack ranges are measured differently. It's all explained in the red posts I linked.

The point here is that Orianna's auto-attack range of 525 had a greater effective range than her spell with 800 range. Presumably if TF's model is similar his auto-attack, and thus his PAC, has a similar effective range.

I'm about to head home from work, I'll do some tests and take some screenshots to measure this exactly.
"I am not able to carry all this people alone, for they are too heavy for me." -Moses (Numbers 11:14)
Navi
Profile Joined November 2009
5286 Posts
December 13 2011 01:16 GMT
#4026
On December 13 2011 10:01 Seuss wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 13 2011 09:53 Navi wrote:
wait what? when you say PAC do you mean his red card (in which case yes you can hit red card on a creep and hit the enemy champion, but this is very inefficient mana-damage wise early game)? because gold and blue does not have 800 effective range, because PAC is an autoattack modifier


I'm working off the big brouhaha that occurred a month or so ago because Orianna's Q was purportedly overnerfed. It was supposed to go from 900 range to 800, but someone noticed that if Orianna was attacking a minion at her maximum auto-attack range it would simultaneously be outside of the range of her Q. Since her auto attack range was 525 at the time the person concluded that her Q range had been overnerfed to 500. In fact, the issue was simply that spell and auto-attack ranges are measured differently. It's all explained in the red posts I linked.

The point here is that Orianna's auto-attack range of 525 had a greater effective range than her spell with 800 range. Presumably if TF's model is similar his auto-attack, and thus his PAC, has a similar effective range.

I'm about to head home from work, I'll do some tests and take some screenshots to measure this exactly.


funny, i always thought of pac as an autoattack modifier (a la sheen, if you try blue carding a tower and then continuing autoattacking you don't move etc.) but that might change with this next patch, they were kind of vague in their wording in the patch preview.
Hey! Listen!
BlackPaladin
Profile Joined May 2010
United States9316 Posts
December 13 2011 01:21 GMT
#4027
It's an attack modifier afaik o.O
You're not kogmaw. You don't press w and gain 300 range on your auto attack.
"Your full potential does not matter if you do not use all 100% of it."
freelander
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
Hungary4707 Posts
December 13 2011 01:25 GMT
#4028
it was an autoattack modifier long ago but they changed that already
it counts as a spell now i think
And all is illuminated.
Synystyr
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States1446 Posts
December 13 2011 01:37 GMT
#4029
On December 13 2011 10:01 Seuss wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 13 2011 09:53 Navi wrote:
wait what? when you say PAC do you mean his red card (in which case yes you can hit red card on a creep and hit the enemy champion, but this is very inefficient mana-damage wise early game)? because gold and blue does not have 800 effective range, because PAC is an autoattack modifier


I'm working off the big brouhaha that occurred a month or so ago because Orianna's Q was purportedly overnerfed. It was supposed to go from 900 range to 800, but someone noticed that if Orianna was attacking a minion at her maximum auto-attack range it would simultaneously be outside of the range of her Q. Since her auto attack range was 525 at the time the person concluded that her Q range had been overnerfed to 500. In fact, the issue was simply that spell and auto-attack ranges are measured differently. It's all explained in the red posts I linked.

The point here is that Orianna's auto-attack range of 525 had a greater effective range than her spell with 800 range. Presumably if TF's model is similar his auto-attack, and thus his PAC, has a similar effective range.

I'm about to head home from work, I'll do some tests and take some screenshots to measure this exactly.


This is pretty interesting stuff. I wanna see what you come up with!
Sky Terran TvP V2.0: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=355839
Two_DoWn
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States13684 Posts
December 13 2011 01:44 GMT
#4030
Navi and BP- Spells and auto attack ranges are calculated differently. Since its an auto modifier, PAC uses his default auto attack range. Now, someone at riot decided that spells are measured differently from auto ranges. Therefore spells are LISTED as longer range, when in fact you have to subtract about 300 range to get into the same scale as the auto range.

Therefore while you dont change range from pac to auto, the comparison between pac and other spells needs to be converted.

I dunno if you got that already and I explained unnecessarily or what, but thats how it works.

"What is the air speed velocity of an unladen courier?" "Dire or Radiant?"
barbsq
Profile Joined November 2009
United States5348 Posts
December 13 2011 01:51 GMT
#4031
On December 13 2011 10:25 freelander wrote:
it was an autoattack modifier long ago but they changed that already
it counts as a spell now i think


it still is an attack modifier
Look at this guy, constantly diluting himself! (╮°-°)╮┳━┳ ( ╯°□°)╯ ┻━┻
Seuss
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States10536 Posts
December 13 2011 02:03 GMT
#4032
After testing, TF's auto attack range with PAC a smidgen below 650 (measured in spellcast distance). An idle TF won't autoattack a Malzahar who casts Malefic Visions at maximum range, but will by moving a very tiny step closer.

Just to remind everyone, TF's auto attack/PAC range is 510, it's just that auto attack range is measured differently. Obviously his model is such that he isn't affected by this as severely as Orianna.
"I am not able to carry all this people alone, for they are too heavy for me." -Moses (Numbers 11:14)
GreenManalishi
Profile Joined July 2009
Canada834 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-13 02:12:31
December 13 2011 02:07 GMT
#4033
On December 13 2011 10:44 Two_DoWn wrote:
Navi and BP- Spells and auto attack ranges are calculated differently. Since its an auto modifier, PAC uses his default auto attack range. Now, someone at riot decided that spells are measured differently from auto ranges. Therefore spells are LISTED as longer range, when in fact you have to subtract about 300 range to get into the same scale as the auto range.

Therefore while you dont change range from pac to auto, the comparison between pac and other spells needs to be converted.

I dunno if you got that already and I explained unnecessarily or what, but thats how it works.



I think I read somewhere that it isn't 300 range, only around ~150. I saw the pictures with Ori, so i don't know what to say. It makes more sense that it would be 100-150 since that is the reach from the center of a model to the edge of their AA range.

Edit: Interesting finding, so if TF had 560 range, he would have an on-demand 2 second stun with 700 spell range. Sounds pretty damn strong, stronger than Taric's Dazzle.
BlackPaladin
Profile Joined May 2010
United States9316 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-13 02:56:50
December 13 2011 02:13 GMT
#4034
On December 13 2011 10:44 Two_DoWn wrote:
Navi and BP- Spells and auto attack ranges are calculated differently. Since its an auto modifier, PAC uses his default auto attack range. Now, someone at riot decided that spells are measured differently from auto ranges. Therefore spells are LISTED as longer range, when in fact you have to subtract about 300 range to get into the same scale as the auto range.

Therefore while you dont change range from pac to auto, the comparison between pac and other spells needs to be converted.

I dunno if you got that already and I explained unnecessarily or what, but thats how it works.



Yeah, you explained that unnecessarily

I'm saying PAC is simply a modifier, so it's NOT calculated from the center of his model like a spell. It's calculated just like an auto would be.

edit: like with ori, her spells are calculated from the center of her model, but your auto is calculated from the edge of her model after she extends her arms to throw her AA. That's easily over 200 difference in range. Because the center of the ball is where her "max range" is calculated from, it can go even further than just the auto vs spell difference so that's why there is an actual 300 range discrepancy with her.

like this:
[image loading]

BP best artist! Better than loco

But with TF his PAC is a modifier and so acts and is calculated just like an AA is.
"Your full potential does not matter if you do not use all 100% of it."
Haemonculus
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
United States6980 Posts
December 13 2011 02:22 GMT
#4035
Is there anything you can do as trynd laning against udyr, specifically tiger udyr? I just got my ass whooped so badly I doubt I'll be able to sit down for a week. He just right clicked on me and ogod the pain and I couldn't hurt him T_T
I admire your commitment to being *very* oily
tobi9999
Profile Joined April 2009
United States1966 Posts
December 13 2011 02:24 GMT
#4036
On December 13 2011 11:22 Haemonculus wrote:
Is there anything you can do as trynd laning against udyr, specifically tiger udyr? I just got my ass whooped so badly I doubt I'll be able to sit down for a week. He just right clicked on me and ogod the pain and I couldn't hurt him T_T


no you can't

i've seen trynds go 2-0 under 2 minutes and still lose to lane to tiger udyr.
"tobi is ur iq 9999? cuz i think it might be u so smart wowowow." -Artosis
obesechicken13
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10467 Posts
December 13 2011 02:33 GMT
#4037
Huh. Can someone explain the TF stuff and message me it?
I think in our modern age technology has evolved to become more addictive. The things that don't give us pleasure aren't used as much. Work was never meant to be fun, but doing it makes us happier in the long run.
Takkara
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2503 Posts
December 13 2011 02:47 GMT
#4038
Regi ratting on Chaox to Dan Dinh on his stream. Hilarious. Telling about how Chaox threw up twice in the restaurant challenging Chauster to a drinking contest with Whiskey. Apparently Chaox was going on and on about how Chauster was afraid. Hilarious. Sounds like it was a wild time.
Gee gee gee gee baby baby baby
dnastyx
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States2707 Posts
December 13 2011 02:48 GMT
#4039
On December 13 2011 11:33 obesechicken13 wrote:
Huh. Can someone explain the TF stuff and message me it?


Or you can read?
Ryalnos
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1946 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-13 02:53:48
December 13 2011 02:51 GMT
#4040
On December 13 2011 11:47 Takkara wrote:
Regi ratting on Chaox to Dan Dinh on his stream. Hilarious. Telling about how Chaox threw up twice in the restaurant challenging Chauster to a drinking contest with Whiskey. Apparently Chaox was going on and on about how Chauster was afraid. Hilarious. Sounds like it was a wild time.


On the other hand, Chaox has been sitting in duo queue with Xspecial, with Jarvan/Leona plotted, and has spent half an hour talking about MTG -_-
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