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Want to rage about your latest loss? Use the QQ thread. If you whine in GD, you'll get warned. |
On December 10 2011 19:57 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 19:44 mr_tolkien wrote:On December 10 2011 19:26 spinesheath wrote:On December 10 2011 19:04 mr_tolkien wrote:On December 10 2011 19:01 spinesheath wrote:On December 10 2011 18:39 JackDino wrote:On December 10 2011 18:35 Raynian wrote:
BW doesn't even really have "RNG" in the same way crits/dodge work. Scarabs only dud if they take a while to reach their target - yes, there are stupid scarabs, yes, you will occasionally get screwed, but if you see a scarab jetting towards your worker line, you know you can pull your workers and they'll -probably- be fine. The miss chance uphill is the only real RNG, but that directly rewards superior positioning, which is interactive on both players' parts.
Expecting the enemy to have a small amount of crit/dodge at level 1 doesn't change the way you'd act in lane. You still try to CS like normal, and harass as normal. The difference is that if one player gets a lucky string of crits or dodges, the scenario completely changes due to luck. One early crit can win a lane and potentially snowball into an undeserved victory. That's bad RNG. The way crit/dodge works should make it impossiple to get a string of crits with 4% crit because it's not entirely RNG based, or so I've read. While I agree that crit may be problematic earlygame on paper, especially in bot lane(you expect it on some champs like trynd obv), later in the game it's completely fine. Never had a problem with lucky crits though. It is possible, just less likely than it should be from a mathematical perspective. They tried to make it more intuitive for people who don't really know a whole lot about random distributions etc., but it should still be possible to crit 4 times in a row with 4% crit. Not from a gameplay point of view. If you have 4% crit chance, it should be normal that your next 15 or so attacks won't crit. Here is an example of one such person who doesn't know a whole lot about random distributions. Read again : FROM. A. GAMEPLAY. POINT. OF. VIEW. Back to back crits are stupids and can break the early game, they shouldn't happen, and a PSEUDO random completly dismissing double crits for low values of crit chances would be benefical. Random doesn't exist on computer anyways, so why not add a little bit of hysteresis ? It's a crit chance. It's supposed to be random (pseudo random = cannot easily tell the difference between real random and pseudo random). If it wasn't supposed to be random (no back to back crits cuz u don't like them), crit should be replaced with a "double damage after X attacks" mechanic. There is some hysteresis in LoL's crit mechanic right now. Back to back crits at low crit values are rarer than they should be. They still exist though, and rightfully so. I guess I should have made it clear that my previous post wasn't really meant to offend you personally, but rather to point out that the average person who doesn't really know how randomness works will always complain about crit streaks with the same argument you used. Sorry.
Quoting this because it is the ultimate truth when it comes to the crit mechanic.
A) Make it truely random (BECAUSE YOU JUST ROLLED A 6 ON A DICE DOES NOT MEAN THAT THE CHANCE TO ROLL ANOTHER 6 IS DECREASED)
B) Make it truely non-random (double dmg after x hits)
The whole "Yeah you have a random chance for event x to happen but that chance increases if it does not happen and decreases if it does happen" is kinda... well... stupid?
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So all this talk about crit has made me wonder. Do you run crit marks and quints or what?
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On another note meeting like half the LoL forum in DotA 2 or the DotA 2 forums feels like how meeting another man you work with in a brothel must feel like. Real awkward.
HEY I DIDN'T KNOW YOU'RE GOING THERE, TOO! =D
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I can't be the only one thats noticed this..
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/y9dz3.jpg)
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On December 10 2011 19:57 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 19:44 mr_tolkien wrote:On December 10 2011 19:26 spinesheath wrote:On December 10 2011 19:04 mr_tolkien wrote:On December 10 2011 19:01 spinesheath wrote:On December 10 2011 18:39 JackDino wrote:On December 10 2011 18:35 Raynian wrote:
BW doesn't even really have "RNG" in the same way crits/dodge work. Scarabs only dud if they take a while to reach their target - yes, there are stupid scarabs, yes, you will occasionally get screwed, but if you see a scarab jetting towards your worker line, you know you can pull your workers and they'll -probably- be fine. The miss chance uphill is the only real RNG, but that directly rewards superior positioning, which is interactive on both players' parts.
Expecting the enemy to have a small amount of crit/dodge at level 1 doesn't change the way you'd act in lane. You still try to CS like normal, and harass as normal. The difference is that if one player gets a lucky string of crits or dodges, the scenario completely changes due to luck. One early crit can win a lane and potentially snowball into an undeserved victory. That's bad RNG. The way crit/dodge works should make it impossiple to get a string of crits with 4% crit because it's not entirely RNG based, or so I've read. While I agree that crit may be problematic earlygame on paper, especially in bot lane(you expect it on some champs like trynd obv), later in the game it's completely fine. Never had a problem with lucky crits though. It is possible, just less likely than it should be from a mathematical perspective. They tried to make it more intuitive for people who don't really know a whole lot about random distributions etc., but it should still be possible to crit 4 times in a row with 4% crit. Not from a gameplay point of view. If you have 4% crit chance, it should be normal that your next 15 or so attacks won't crit. Here is an example of one such person who doesn't know a whole lot about random distributions. Read again : FROM. A. GAMEPLAY. POINT. OF. VIEW. Back to back crits are stupids and can break the early game, they shouldn't happen, and a PSEUDO random completly dismissing double crits for low values of crit chances would be benefical. Random doesn't exist on computer anyways, so why not add a little bit of hysteresis ? It's a crit chance. It's supposed to be random (pseudo random = cannot easily tell the difference between real random and pseudo random). If it wasn't supposed to be random (no back to back crits cuz u don't like them), crit should be replaced with a "double damage after X attacks" mechanic. There is some hysteresis in LoL's crit mechanic right now. Back to back crits at low crit values are rarer than they should be. They still exist though, and rightfully so.
Who cares what you presume it's "supposed" to be? Who cares if you think that streaks should be more common solely for the sake of having a purely random system? This is the worst argument against the pseudo random system that I've ever read. Yeah I know you mentioned removing randomness too but I'm objecting to even the thought that true randomness > pseudo randomness. Riot's change of the system was most definitely a step forward.
On December 10 2011 22:00 r.Evo wrote:
The whole "Yeah you have a random chance for event x to happen but that chance increases if it does not happen and decreases if it does happen" is kinda... well... stupid?
I agree that a non-random system would be superior to what we have now but there's no way a truly random system would be superior. "Cause it's stupid" is a weak argument. The "hysteresis" is caused by Riot having limited resources. Changing to pseudo random was far easier than developing another scaling stat, reworking all the items, and rebalancing everything under the new system.
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On December 10 2011 22:25 r.Evo wrote:
On another note meeting like half the LoL forum in DotA 2 or the DotA 2 forums feels like how meeting another man you work with in a brothel must feel like. Real awkward.
HEY I DIDN'T KNOW YOU'RE GOING THERE, TOO! =D
Haha that made me lol. But most hardcore MOBA players are into both games anyway so its kinda expected.
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On December 10 2011 22:42 phyvo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 19:57 spinesheath wrote:On December 10 2011 19:44 mr_tolkien wrote:On December 10 2011 19:26 spinesheath wrote:On December 10 2011 19:04 mr_tolkien wrote:On December 10 2011 19:01 spinesheath wrote:On December 10 2011 18:39 JackDino wrote:On December 10 2011 18:35 Raynian wrote:
BW doesn't even really have "RNG" in the same way crits/dodge work. Scarabs only dud if they take a while to reach their target - yes, there are stupid scarabs, yes, you will occasionally get screwed, but if you see a scarab jetting towards your worker line, you know you can pull your workers and they'll -probably- be fine. The miss chance uphill is the only real RNG, but that directly rewards superior positioning, which is interactive on both players' parts.
Expecting the enemy to have a small amount of crit/dodge at level 1 doesn't change the way you'd act in lane. You still try to CS like normal, and harass as normal. The difference is that if one player gets a lucky string of crits or dodges, the scenario completely changes due to luck. One early crit can win a lane and potentially snowball into an undeserved victory. That's bad RNG. The way crit/dodge works should make it impossiple to get a string of crits with 4% crit because it's not entirely RNG based, or so I've read. While I agree that crit may be problematic earlygame on paper, especially in bot lane(you expect it on some champs like trynd obv), later in the game it's completely fine. Never had a problem with lucky crits though. It is possible, just less likely than it should be from a mathematical perspective. They tried to make it more intuitive for people who don't really know a whole lot about random distributions etc., but it should still be possible to crit 4 times in a row with 4% crit. Not from a gameplay point of view. If you have 4% crit chance, it should be normal that your next 15 or so attacks won't crit. Here is an example of one such person who doesn't know a whole lot about random distributions. Read again : FROM. A. GAMEPLAY. POINT. OF. VIEW. Back to back crits are stupids and can break the early game, they shouldn't happen, and a PSEUDO random completly dismissing double crits for low values of crit chances would be benefical. Random doesn't exist on computer anyways, so why not add a little bit of hysteresis ? It's a crit chance. It's supposed to be random (pseudo random = cannot easily tell the difference between real random and pseudo random). If it wasn't supposed to be random (no back to back crits cuz u don't like them), crit should be replaced with a "double damage after X attacks" mechanic. There is some hysteresis in LoL's crit mechanic right now. Back to back crits at low crit values are rarer than they should be. They still exist though, and rightfully so. Who cares what you presume it's "supposed" to be? Who cares if you think that streaks should be more common solely for the sake of having a purely random system? This is the worst argument against the pseudo random system that I've ever read. Yeah I know you mentioned removing randomness too but I'm objecting to even the thought that true randomness > pseudo randomness. Riot's change of the system was most definitely a step forward. Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 22:00 r.Evo wrote:
The whole "Yeah you have a random chance for event x to happen but that chance increases if it does not happen and decreases if it does happen" is kinda... well... stupid? I agree that a non-random system would be superior to what we have now but there's no way a truly random system would be superior. "Cause it's stupid" is a weak argument. The "hysteresis" is caused by Riot having limited resources. Changing to pseudo random was far easier than developing another scaling stat, reworking all the items, and rebalancing everything under the new system.
In my opinion, if you INVEST into a random chance to do double the damage you should what you deserve: A high risk/high reward scenario. That's my personal opinion though and I do understand that a true random mechanic when it comes to something as "lanechanging" as crits can be incredibly frustrating for the receiving end.
However, I also think that the pseudo-random mechanic is basicly a forced weird fix on that issue.
If there was ever a remake, here is what I would recommend:
Every champion gets a small indicator of when their next attack will do critical damage. This indicator counts down from a number based on your critical strike chance and once it hits 1 your next attack will do critical damage and it will reset afterwards. Evey autoattack you do decreases the counter by 1.
10% Crit chance would mean your counter starts at 10, 1% Crit would mean it starts at 100, 50% Crit would mean it starts at 5.
The same mechanic can be applied to something like wriggles procs too.
Personally I'm just a HUGE hater when it comes to calling a feature "random" while it is simply not. What I'm suggesting above, while highly unrealisticly since there is crit "chance" involved, would make for some pretty interesting gameplay situations. Imagine lining up your wriggles and crit procs to steal a buff with smite e.g.
On the bad side every champ would seem to have Caits passive then. =D
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On December 10 2011 22:42 phyvo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 19:57 spinesheath wrote:On December 10 2011 19:44 mr_tolkien wrote:On December 10 2011 19:26 spinesheath wrote:On December 10 2011 19:04 mr_tolkien wrote:On December 10 2011 19:01 spinesheath wrote:On December 10 2011 18:39 JackDino wrote:On December 10 2011 18:35 Raynian wrote:
BW doesn't even really have "RNG" in the same way crits/dodge work. Scarabs only dud if they take a while to reach their target - yes, there are stupid scarabs, yes, you will occasionally get screwed, but if you see a scarab jetting towards your worker line, you know you can pull your workers and they'll -probably- be fine. The miss chance uphill is the only real RNG, but that directly rewards superior positioning, which is interactive on both players' parts.
Expecting the enemy to have a small amount of crit/dodge at level 1 doesn't change the way you'd act in lane. You still try to CS like normal, and harass as normal. The difference is that if one player gets a lucky string of crits or dodges, the scenario completely changes due to luck. One early crit can win a lane and potentially snowball into an undeserved victory. That's bad RNG. The way crit/dodge works should make it impossiple to get a string of crits with 4% crit because it's not entirely RNG based, or so I've read. While I agree that crit may be problematic earlygame on paper, especially in bot lane(you expect it on some champs like trynd obv), later in the game it's completely fine. Never had a problem with lucky crits though. It is possible, just less likely than it should be from a mathematical perspective. They tried to make it more intuitive for people who don't really know a whole lot about random distributions etc., but it should still be possible to crit 4 times in a row with 4% crit. Not from a gameplay point of view. If you have 4% crit chance, it should be normal that your next 15 or so attacks won't crit. Here is an example of one such person who doesn't know a whole lot about random distributions. Read again : FROM. A. GAMEPLAY. POINT. OF. VIEW. Back to back crits are stupids and can break the early game, they shouldn't happen, and a PSEUDO random completly dismissing double crits for low values of crit chances would be benefical. Random doesn't exist on computer anyways, so why not add a little bit of hysteresis ? It's a crit chance. It's supposed to be random (pseudo random = cannot easily tell the difference between real random and pseudo random). If it wasn't supposed to be random (no back to back crits cuz u don't like them), crit should be replaced with a "double damage after X attacks" mechanic. There is some hysteresis in LoL's crit mechanic right now. Back to back crits at low crit values are rarer than they should be. They still exist though, and rightfully so. Who cares what you presume it's "supposed" to be? Who cares if you think that streaks should be more common solely for the sake of having a purely random system? This is the worst argument against the pseudo random system that I've ever read. Yeah I know you mentioned removing randomness too but I'm objecting to even the thought that true randomness > pseudo randomness. Riot's change of the system was most definitely a step forward. Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 22:00 r.Evo wrote:
The whole "Yeah you have a random chance for event x to happen but that chance increases if it does not happen and decreases if it does happen" is kinda... well... stupid? I agree that a non-random system would be superior to what we have now but there's no way a truly random system would be superior. "Cause it's stupid" is a weak argument. The "hysteresis" is caused by Riot having limited resources. Changing to pseudo random was far easier than developing another scaling stat, reworking all the items, and rebalancing everything under the new system.
We can all drop the random word and be happy with it.
If you prefer, let's say I'd prefer crits to be a non determinist event happening in certain timeframes. Not random, I agree, but not purely determinist as well. This way you could have a better control over what you do and how you play your early game.
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I wasn't really responding to your suggestion, tolkien. Yours is just a different pseudo random system, there's nothing dirty about the word "random". From my point of view the next step would be more a complete rework either along R.evo's lines or some other lines. Even R.Evo's suggestion would take a lot of work though despite being the simplest way to include another multiplicative stat.
edit: wow I am typing poorly today
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United States47024 Posts
On December 10 2011 22:54 r.Evo wrote:
In my opinion, if you INVEST into a random chance to do double the damage you should what you deserve: A high risk/high reward scenario. That's my personal opinion though and I do understand that a true random mechanic when it comes to something as "lanechanging" as crits can be incredibly frustrating for the receiving end.
However, I also think that the pseudo-random mechanic is basicly a forced weird fix on that issue.
I don't see how it feels forced. You still have a high-risk/high-reward stat. The pseudo-random distribution just tailors the amount of risk the stat entails by how much the proc chance rises and falls after successive procs/non-procs.
Essentially, it gives another angle from which Riot can tune the balance of crit- and crit-based abilities, while overall still preserving their average DPS gain. Riot hasn't actively explored this avenue of balancing out crit as a stat, but that's their oversight, rather than a problem with the mechanic.
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you can use the pseudo distribution to your advantage
if you for example have 15% crit chance, and in the last 3 last hits you didn't crit the creeps, you have a significant chance to crit in the next attack so you should maybe use it on the enemy champion
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Are you sure they made it apply on creeps, because that seems abusable and silly on them. I assumed the distribution would only apply for attacking champions.
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I'm in quite the mood these days, so there was no surprise for me that I got slapped with another ban for unappropriate behaviour (I was on a crusade to always tell the truth, and that wasn't popular).
So I went back to my old account, that has 0 skins, 0 heroes 1 tier 3 rune and went "Oh right, ranked reset". I fucking breeze through to 1600 and sadly I'm not shitting you after months of being stucdk on my great account not getting past 1400 due to trolls, tilts and bullshit, I go on the shit account and lose 1 match to 1600... GALFLAGJLJGDKHGDSL.
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Having just been mauled by a Vayne who got a good third of her kills thanks to early mastery crits (level 1 to 4), yeah... this is so frustrating it just stinks. No stats to play against it, no indicator... plain boring.
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On December 10 2011 22:54 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 22:42 phyvo wrote:On December 10 2011 19:57 spinesheath wrote:On December 10 2011 19:44 mr_tolkien wrote:On December 10 2011 19:26 spinesheath wrote:On December 10 2011 19:04 mr_tolkien wrote:On December 10 2011 19:01 spinesheath wrote:On December 10 2011 18:39 JackDino wrote:On December 10 2011 18:35 Raynian wrote:
BW doesn't even really have "RNG" in the same way crits/dodge work. Scarabs only dud if they take a while to reach their target - yes, there are stupid scarabs, yes, you will occasionally get screwed, but if you see a scarab jetting towards your worker line, you know you can pull your workers and they'll -probably- be fine. The miss chance uphill is the only real RNG, but that directly rewards superior positioning, which is interactive on both players' parts.
Expecting the enemy to have a small amount of crit/dodge at level 1 doesn't change the way you'd act in lane. You still try to CS like normal, and harass as normal. The difference is that if one player gets a lucky string of crits or dodges, the scenario completely changes due to luck. One early crit can win a lane and potentially snowball into an undeserved victory. That's bad RNG. The way crit/dodge works should make it impossiple to get a string of crits with 4% crit because it's not entirely RNG based, or so I've read. While I agree that crit may be problematic earlygame on paper, especially in bot lane(you expect it on some champs like trynd obv), later in the game it's completely fine. Never had a problem with lucky crits though. It is possible, just less likely than it should be from a mathematical perspective. They tried to make it more intuitive for people who don't really know a whole lot about random distributions etc., but it should still be possible to crit 4 times in a row with 4% crit. Not from a gameplay point of view. If you have 4% crit chance, it should be normal that your next 15 or so attacks won't crit. Here is an example of one such person who doesn't know a whole lot about random distributions. Read again : FROM. A. GAMEPLAY. POINT. OF. VIEW. Back to back crits are stupids and can break the early game, they shouldn't happen, and a PSEUDO random completly dismissing double crits for low values of crit chances would be benefical. Random doesn't exist on computer anyways, so why not add a little bit of hysteresis ? It's a crit chance. It's supposed to be random (pseudo random = cannot easily tell the difference between real random and pseudo random). If it wasn't supposed to be random (no back to back crits cuz u don't like them), crit should be replaced with a "double damage after X attacks" mechanic. There is some hysteresis in LoL's crit mechanic right now. Back to back crits at low crit values are rarer than they should be. They still exist though, and rightfully so. Who cares what you presume it's "supposed" to be? Who cares if you think that streaks should be more common solely for the sake of having a purely random system? This is the worst argument against the pseudo random system that I've ever read. Yeah I know you mentioned removing randomness too but I'm objecting to even the thought that true randomness > pseudo randomness. Riot's change of the system was most definitely a step forward. On December 10 2011 22:00 r.Evo wrote:
The whole "Yeah you have a random chance for event x to happen but that chance increases if it does not happen and decreases if it does happen" is kinda... well... stupid? I agree that a non-random system would be superior to what we have now but there's no way a truly random system would be superior. "Cause it's stupid" is a weak argument. The "hysteresis" is caused by Riot having limited resources. Changing to pseudo random was far easier than developing another scaling stat, reworking all the items, and rebalancing everything under the new system. In my opinion, if you INVEST into a random chance to do double the damage you should what you deserve: A high risk/high reward scenario. That's my personal opinion though and I do understand that a true random mechanic when it comes to something as "lanechanging" as crits can be incredibly frustrating for the receiving end. However, I also think that the pseudo-random mechanic is basicly a forced weird fix on that issue. If there was ever a remake, here is what I would recommend: Every champion gets a small indicator of when their next attack will do critical damage. This indicator counts down from a number based on your critical strike chance and once it hits 1 your next attack will do critical damage and it will reset afterwards. Evey autoattack you do decreases the counter by 1.
10% Crit chance would mean your counter starts at 10, 1% Crit would mean it starts at 100, 50% Crit would mean it starts at 5.The same mechanic can be applied to something like wriggles procs too. Personally I'm just a HUGE hater when it comes to calling a feature "random" while it is simply not. What I'm suggesting above, while highly unrealisticly since there is crit "chance" involved, would make for some pretty interesting gameplay situations. Imagine lining up your wriggles and crit procs to steal a buff with smite e.g. On the bad side every champ would seem to have Caits passive then. =D
With this my cait can line up headshot, crit, and sword of the divine to hit at the same time. base + .5*base + 100 + base*1.5 on IE damage every time I decide to harass. At 160 base... I'm harassing for 580... before I fire my peacemaker.
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On December 11 2011 01:10 Slayer91 wrote:
Are you sure they made it apply on creeps, because that seems abusable and silly on them. I assumed the distribution would only apply for attacking champions.
As far as I know the PRNG resets or something when you start hitting a different target. But yeah charging crits isn't possible.
On December 11 2011 01:38 Alaric wrote:
Having just been mauled by a Vayne who got a good third of her kills thanks to early mastery crits (level 1 to 4), yeah... this is so frustrating it just stinks. No stats to play against it, no indicator... plain boring.
If she's getting several kills before the five minute mark it's most likely her outplaying your team rather than "OMG 4% CRIT MASTERY IMBALANCED".
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On December 11 2011 01:57 dismiss wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 01:10 Slayer91 wrote:
Are you sure they made it apply on creeps, because that seems abusable and silly on them. I assumed the distribution would only apply for attacking champions. As far as I know the PRNG resets or something when you start hitting a different target. But yeah charging crits isn't possible. Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 01:38 Alaric wrote:
Having just been mauled by a Vayne who got a good third of her kills thanks to early mastery crits (level 1 to 4), yeah... this is so frustrating it just stinks. No stats to play against it, no indicator... plain boring. If she's getting several kills before the five minute mark it's most likely her outplaying your team rather than "OMG 4% CRIT MASTERY IMBALANCED".
Pretty much... @alaric play a vayne with 4% crit and see how well you do.
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On December 11 2011 00:45 freelander wrote:
you can use the pseudo distribution to your advantage
if you for example have 15% crit chance, and in the last 3 last hits you didn't crit the creeps, you have a significant chance to crit in the next attack so you should maybe use it on the enemy champion
Riot confirmed the pseudo random is calculated per target for exactly that reason.
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United States8298 Posts
On December 11 2011 01:57 dismiss wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 01:10 Slayer91 wrote:
Are you sure they made it apply on creeps, because that seems abusable and silly on them. I assumed the distribution would only apply for attacking champions. As far as I know the PRNG resets or something when you start hitting a different target. But yeah charging crits isn't possible. Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 01:38 Alaric wrote:
Having just been mauled by a Vayne who got a good third of her kills thanks to early mastery crits (level 1 to 4), yeah... this is so frustrating it just stinks. No stats to play against it, no indicator... plain boring. If she's getting several kills before the five minute mark it's most likely her outplaying your team rather than "OMG 4% CRIT MASTERY IMBALANCED".
Yeah... there's no way that vayne wasn't just outdamaging her opponent. Even if she's getting away with 40 health or less each time, it doesn't mean it's purely because of a crit. Share the replay (if you have lolreplay) and I bet we'll find other problems.
Remember: If you're looking at ~10 autoattacks (approx. how many it would take to bring you from full to dead at low level) and 4% crit, there's a 33% chance that at least one of those 10 attacks will be a crit. If you're playing your lane such that you have a 33% chance of losing, you're playing it wrong (or getting outplayed).
I, for one, am in favor of the crit system working the way it does now (pseudorandom) over it being anti-randomized even more. The more you remove the randomness, the more players can learn and abuse the new system. It needs to stay somewhat random so that people don't start treating it like Caitlyn's Headshot.
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PRNG has it's moments.
Top vs GP as Riven.
GP lvl 3 goes to parley me.
3/3 crits.
Sup PRNG.
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EPT
