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Want to rage about your latest loss? Use the QQ thread. If you whine in GD, you'll get warned. |
On December 10 2011 03:39 rwrzr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 03:26 Tyrran wrote:On December 10 2011 02:48 JackDino wrote:
There's not a single champ that can 1v5 anyone unless the other 5 are braindead, regardless of items, this game has no hypercarries. Thats because we dont have the imba items that DotA has. Imagine Tryndamere with BKB ( for non-Dotaer, it gives up to 10 second magic ( and CC) immunity ). Now you know what an hypercarry is. I suggest all of the people in this thread or in general who play LoL to play dota at some point in time. The idea of a hypercarry is slightly exaggerated. In most cases your teamfights are not 4 people afk in base while 1 person 1v5s their whole team. Its more along the lines of the 5th "hypercarry" has enough farm to kill their team with support. Getting caught in a 1v5 situation is still death in 9 out of 10 cases.
Well, if that's your definition, there are plenty of "hypercarries" who can kill all 5 as long as their team supports them.
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On December 10 2011 03:26 Tyrran wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 02:48 JackDino wrote:
There's not a single champ that can 1v5 anyone unless the other 5 are braindead, regardless of items, this game has no hypercarries. Thats because we dont have the imba items that DotA has. Imagine Tryndamere with BKB ( for non-Dotaer, it gives up to 10 second magic ( and CC) immunity ). Now you know what an hypercarry is.
Actualy i think the more important factor is the fact that You lose gold when You die in dota. The snowball effect in lol is much smaller in dota because of it.
Of course i am not denying that for egzample lothar is making ursa or nevermore who they are...sometimes i am wondering what would happen in lol games....for example if i was warlcok and had refresher with all this clumping in lol....different games.
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On December 10 2011 03:39 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 02:44 Slayer91 wrote:
This is like 5 pages behind but whatever I already told you, you're not a hypercarry if you have 5 survivability items. People are talking about trying to 1v5 with full items and in a real game you can't even beat annie+taric with those items. You rely on your team to set up in a position to take down everybody you don't do everything yourself.
Nasus is not a hypercarry because lategame he can easily be focused down before he gets in range if his team doesn't assist.
Who the fuck made that arbitrary distinction? Nasus ends with Triforce + 3-4 defensive/support items. There are plenty of hard carries in DotA that can similarly end up with 3+ defensive items and only 1 real damage item. Nobody 1v5s in DotA either except in super pubstompy situations analogous to those where it's possible in LoL. Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 03:12 JackDino wrote:
I'm saying that there's no such thing as hypercarries, if you are fed/really really farmed sure in some cases you can 1v5, but there's not a single champ that can 1v5 if he has max items when the other team isn't retarded. Singed dies in a 1v5 to ignite/cc aswell the second he gets caught, if you dont'chase him he can't kill you. You can't 1v5 in DotA either, except in situations that are just as ridiculous as those in which you can do so in LoL.
Then people shouldn't give such stupid definitions if they want to argue about them. There's like no real 1v5 situation in the game anyways.
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That's how I feel too. There have been champs capable of 1v5s throughout the game's history (beta yi comes to mind) but they've always require a specific circumstance to really 1v5. Yi could do it if he either stomped all game (had a bunch of games where I'd die once early then end 30+/2) but that required snowballing and if it was a fairly even game I could do it if they didn't have a Rammus but everything in this game has at least a team counter or it gets nerfed so at best we still have a few solo hypercarries but you won't see it in competitive matches.
Glad to see morello considers the crit mastery a problem also. Does their engine allow them to do level restricted stuff? Like you get the 4% crit at level 6 when a poke that crits will be 1/3 of your hp? I think the offensive tree could use a rework in general but until that happens it'd be nice to still have the crit on certain champs since I'm sure everyone would still take a new skill if it was a prereq for 10%crit dmg if they went IE anyway.
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On December 10 2011 03:01 mr_tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 02:47 koreasilver wrote:
Building ad and "dps" items on ww is so stupid when most of your damage comes from your q. Wit's end is a great item on ww since it increases the damage on your ult and it provides resistance. but building ww as a dps is retarded because you're not making use of how strong his q is, and how it allows you to be tanky as all hell while still doing damage and sustain, instead of just doing damage and dying so much quicker. The fact that you jump right into the enemy with your ult pretty much necessitates that you build tanky especially since you are an initiator. You're not an initiator, you're a follow-up. But still. I don't get why you'd build AD and lifesteal on WW (Wriggles) when most of your damage comes from your Q and your wits end and your sustain comes from your Q and from Aspd. I don't see where AD has a place in this.
you're attacking a bunch, right?
so having AD helps.
this isn't fucking rocket science. just because you might scale best with 1 stat doesn't mean you should ignore the other stats that, you know, scale off of that other stat. in this case, if you're getting stupidtarded attackspeed off of wit's end + your W anyway, why not fucking use it with some actual damage items? look, I've said it like, 5 times in the past 2 days, but I'll say it again, wriggle's, wit's end, and trinity force make up the best offensive core for WW. If you've never tried it, go do so for a few games and then never go back to any other offensive items.
it's still fine to just build straight tank in lane if all your team needs you to do is sit on the front line and eat poke, then ult someone and chase stragglers, but there's a lot of potential DPS on Warwick from hunter's call being, you know, one of the strongest steroids in the game and this should not always be ignored.
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Loci looking REAL sexy like on stream.
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United States47024 Posts
The concept of a hypercarry as far as it exists in DotA isn't relevant to LoL. "Hypercarries" as far as DotA is concerned basically scale hard enough that funneling farm onto a single farmed hypercarry allows you to have a lategame for a 4-protects-1 comp that can matchup against 2- or 3-carry comps. The concept has no bearing on LoL because you can't funnel that much farm onto one person. The lack of TPs means a carry can't farm a lane->tp to next pushed lane->repeat, so you HAVE to have 2-3 other people that want to be cleaning up the farm in the other pushed lanes. Even if there were carries that scaled hard enough, you couldn't sensibly play a 4-protects-1 because of this.
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On December 10 2011 04:15 Mufaa wrote:
That's how I feel too. There have been champs capable of 1v5s throughout the game's history (beta yi comes to mind) but they've always require a specific circumstance to really 1v5. Yi could do it if he either stomped all game (had a bunch of games where I'd die once early then end 30+/2) but that required snowballing and if it was a fairly even game I could do it if they didn't have a Rammus but everything in this game has at least a team counter or it gets nerfed so at best we still have a few solo hypercarries but you won't see it in competitive matches.
Glad to see morello considers the crit mastery a problem also. Does their engine allow them to do level restricted stuff? Like you get the 4% crit at level 6 when a poke that crits will be 1/3 of your hp? I think the offensive tree could use a rework in general but until that happens it'd be nice to still have the crit on certain champs since I'm sure everyone would still take a new skill if it was a prereq for 10%crit dmg if they went IE anyway.
They can just dump the mastery and then replace it with something else. Like the 10% crit DMG is a must grab on anyone going any sort of ad, so realistically you can just replace the 4% crit chance with anything basically. I't be cool if they threw something interesting there though, maybe movespeed after hitting a champ or somethin like that.
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On December 10 2011 04:21 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 04:15 Mufaa wrote:
That's how I feel too. There have been champs capable of 1v5s throughout the game's history (beta yi comes to mind) but they've always require a specific circumstance to really 1v5. Yi could do it if he either stomped all game (had a bunch of games where I'd die once early then end 30+/2) but that required snowballing and if it was a fairly even game I could do it if they didn't have a Rammus but everything in this game has at least a team counter or it gets nerfed so at best we still have a few solo hypercarries but you won't see it in competitive matches.
Glad to see morello considers the crit mastery a problem also. Does their engine allow them to do level restricted stuff? Like you get the 4% crit at level 6 when a poke that crits will be 1/3 of your hp? I think the offensive tree could use a rework in general but until that happens it'd be nice to still have the crit on certain champs since I'm sure everyone would still take a new skill if it was a prereq for 10%crit dmg if they went IE anyway. They can just dump the mastery and then replace it with something else. Like the 10% crit DMG is a must grab on anyone going any sort of ad, so realistically you can just replace the 4% crit chance with anything basically. I't be cool if they threw something interesting there though, maybe movespeed after hitting a champ or somethin like that.
yea what could possibly be a problem with that mechanic........
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United States47024 Posts
Remove the crit mastery and just make Lethality a 3 point mastery again, with no prereqs. It's strong enough at 3 points, and is just retarded at 1 point.
On December 10 2011 04:18 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 03:01 mr_tolkien wrote:On December 10 2011 02:47 koreasilver wrote:
Building ad and "dps" items on ww is so stupid when most of your damage comes from your q. Wit's end is a great item on ww since it increases the damage on your ult and it provides resistance. but building ww as a dps is retarded because you're not making use of how strong his q is, and how it allows you to be tanky as all hell while still doing damage and sustain, instead of just doing damage and dying so much quicker. The fact that you jump right into the enemy with your ult pretty much necessitates that you build tanky especially since you are an initiator. You're not an initiator, you're a follow-up. But still. I don't get why you'd build AD and lifesteal on WW (Wriggles) when most of your damage comes from your Q and your wits end and your sustain comes from your Q and from Aspd. I don't see where AD has a place in this. you're attacking a bunch, right? so having AD helps. this isn't fucking rocket science. just because you might scale best with 1 stat doesn't mean you should ignore the other stats that, you know, scale off of that other stat. in this case, if you're getting stupidtarded attackspeed off of wit's end + your W anyway, why not fucking use it with some actual damage items? look, I've said it like, 5 times in the past 2 days, but I'll say it again, wriggle's, wit's end, and trinity force make up the best offensive core for WW. If you've never tried it, go do so for a few games and then never go back to any other offensive items. it's still fine to just build straight tank in lane if all your team needs you to do is sit on the front line and eat poke, then ult someone and chase stragglers, but there's a lot of potential DPS on Warwick from hunter's call being, you know, one of the strongest steroids in the game and this should not always be ignored.
I think the discussion started with a mention of AD items in particular, not just damage items in general.
While WW does autoattack a lot, he doesn't have explicit AD scaling, and as a melee champ, he can't really buy more than 2 or so damage items. If you don't have AD ratios, and you don't buy enough DPS items for the multiplicative scaling of crit/ArPen to kick in significantly, Wits and Triforce are more cost-effective than real AD items.
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On December 10 2011 04:22 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 04:21 Two_DoWn wrote:On December 10 2011 04:15 Mufaa wrote:
That's how I feel too. There have been champs capable of 1v5s throughout the game's history (beta yi comes to mind) but they've always require a specific circumstance to really 1v5. Yi could do it if he either stomped all game (had a bunch of games where I'd die once early then end 30+/2) but that required snowballing and if it was a fairly even game I could do it if they didn't have a Rammus but everything in this game has at least a team counter or it gets nerfed so at best we still have a few solo hypercarries but you won't see it in competitive matches.
Glad to see morello considers the crit mastery a problem also. Does their engine allow them to do level restricted stuff? Like you get the 4% crit at level 6 when a poke that crits will be 1/3 of your hp? I think the offensive tree could use a rework in general but until that happens it'd be nice to still have the crit on certain champs since I'm sure everyone would still take a new skill if it was a prereq for 10%crit dmg if they went IE anyway. They can just dump the mastery and then replace it with something else. Like the 10% crit DMG is a must grab on anyone going any sort of ad, so realistically you can just replace the 4% crit chance with anything basically. I't be cool if they threw something interesting there though, maybe movespeed after hitting a champ or somethin like that. yea what could possibly be a problem with that mechanic........
But its perfect cuz then Sivir isnt as op because EVERYONE is as op as sivir!
Ya I know its stupid op, but its the only thing I could think of on the spot for a mastery that would be more interesting than "get 1,2,3,4 of X stat" to replace crit%.
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After the Jarman/leona bot lane shenanigans, has nayone tried pantheon leona?
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United States37500 Posts
On December 10 2011 04:33 JackDino wrote:
After the Jarman/leona bot lane shenanigans, has nayone tried pantheon leona?
lol... theorycrafting all day.
From about an hour ago.
Smash says: Pantheon + Leona though
man
that lane
is so boss
Neo says: goose runs j4 leona
real ghey
made dignitas ban leona
roflllll
Smash says: lol
j4 leona is ok
panth leon is stonker in lane
Neo: j4 moar versatile
panth is just a steamroller
pray you get ganks if you're facing them
zz
Smash says: panth leona
hits level 2
you die
the end
no question
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On December 10 2011 04:15 Mufaa wrote:
Glad to see morello considers the crit mastery a problem also. Does their engine allow them to do level restricted stuff? Like you get the 4% crit at level 6 when a poke that crits will be 1/3 of your hp? I think the offensive tree could use a rework in general but until that happens it'd be nice to still have the crit on certain champs since I'm sure everyone would still take a new skill if it was a prereq for 10%crit dmg if they went IE anyway.
Source? If it was already posted: must have missed it.
I guess the engine should allow stuff like that.
What point is there in removing the crit mastery (or making it weak at the beginning) without removing crit runes?
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Yeah that's what I thought. Also fits with the lore somewhat:p
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On December 10 2011 04:39 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 04:15 Mufaa wrote:
Glad to see morello considers the crit mastery a problem also. Does their engine allow them to do level restricted stuff? Like you get the 4% crit at level 6 when a poke that crits will be 1/3 of your hp? I think the offensive tree could use a rework in general but until that happens it'd be nice to still have the crit on certain champs since I'm sure everyone would still take a new skill if it was a prereq for 10%crit dmg if they went IE anyway. Source? If it was already posted: must have missed it. I guess the engine should allow stuff like that. What point is there in removing the crit mastery (or making it weak at the beginning) without removing crit runes?
Crit runes are fine IMO because what you give up to get them essentially makes them shit. Sure, 1 time out of every 10 games you will get the level 1 crit that wins you the game, but you have to give up armor pen to get them, and on a broad level, armor pen/ad on reds and quints is going to be much more efficient than crit/ad or crit/armpen on reds and quints.
The problem with the mastery is that you ARE going to get 4% crit because there is no reason not to. Its free. There is no trade off. The 10% crit damage is just that good compared to the rest of the shit in that tree. They could make it so that the 4 points leading to 10% crit damage reduced your damage by 1-2-3-4 and you would STILL put points there.
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On December 10 2011 04:39 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 04:15 Mufaa wrote:
Glad to see morello considers the crit mastery a problem also. Does their engine allow them to do level restricted stuff? Like you get the 4% crit at level 6 when a poke that crits will be 1/3 of your hp? I think the offensive tree could use a rework in general but until that happens it'd be nice to still have the crit on certain champs since I'm sure everyone would still take a new skill if it was a prereq for 10%crit dmg if they went IE anyway. Source? If it was already posted: must have missed it. I guess the engine should allow stuff like that. What point is there in removing the crit mastery (or making it weak at the beginning) without removing crit runes?
Because crit runes are terrible whereas the crit mastery leads to lethality.
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On December 10 2011 04:24 TheYango wrote:
Remove the crit mastery and just make Lethality a 3 point mastery again, with no prereqs. It's strong enough at 3 points, and is just retarded at 1 point.
Lethality is absurdly overrated.
Take this scenario and compare Lethality to Weapon Expertise (FINE NEO).
You have 100 AD, 60% Crit and are attacking a target with 100 Armor.
Lethality: (((100 * 0.4) + (210 * 0.6)) * 100)/(100 + 100) = 83 damage/hit
Weapon Expertise: (((100 * 0.4) + (200 * 0.6)) * 100)/(100 + 90) = 84.21 damage/hit
At 60% crit (fairly high value Lethality) and 100 opposing armor (pedestrian value Weapon Expertise), Lethality is still underperforming Weapon Expertise. People just don't crunch numbers and say stupid shit like that Lethality is OP, it's fine as it is.
On December 10 2011 04:24 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 04:18 Mogwai wrote:On December 10 2011 03:01 mr_tolkien wrote:On December 10 2011 02:47 koreasilver wrote:
Building ad and "dps" items on ww is so stupid when most of your damage comes from your q. Wit's end is a great item on ww since it increases the damage on your ult and it provides resistance. but building ww as a dps is retarded because you're not making use of how strong his q is, and how it allows you to be tanky as all hell while still doing damage and sustain, instead of just doing damage and dying so much quicker. The fact that you jump right into the enemy with your ult pretty much necessitates that you build tanky especially since you are an initiator. You're not an initiator, you're a follow-up. But still. I don't get why you'd build AD and lifesteal on WW (Wriggles) when most of your damage comes from your Q and your wits end and your sustain comes from your Q and from Aspd. I don't see where AD has a place in this. you're attacking a bunch, right? so having AD helps. this isn't fucking rocket science. just because you might scale best with 1 stat doesn't mean you should ignore the other stats that, you know, scale off of that other stat. in this case, if you're getting stupidtarded attackspeed off of wit's end + your W anyway, why not fucking use it with some actual damage items? look, I've said it like, 5 times in the past 2 days, but I'll say it again, wriggle's, wit's end, and trinity force make up the best offensive core for WW. If you've never tried it, go do so for a few games and then never go back to any other offensive items. it's still fine to just build straight tank in lane if all your team needs you to do is sit on the front line and eat poke, then ult someone and chase stragglers, but there's a lot of potential DPS on Warwick from hunter's call being, you know, one of the strongest steroids in the game and this should not always be ignored. I think the discussion started with a mention of AD items in particular, not just damage items in general. While WW does autoattack a lot, he doesn't have explicit AD scaling, and as a melee champ, he can't really buy more than 2 or so damage items. If you don't have AD ratios, and you don't buy enough DPS items for the multiplicative scaling of crit/ArPen to kick in significantly, Wits and Triforce are more cost-effective than real AD items.
we're talking very specifically on the merits of Wriggle's. Wriggle's is still absurdly efficient and all the stats are good on WW. it's stupid to say it's not a good fit on him, straight up.
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On December 10 2011 04:39 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 04:15 Mufaa wrote:
Glad to see morello considers the crit mastery a problem also. Does their engine allow them to do level restricted stuff? Like you get the 4% crit at level 6 when a poke that crits will be 1/3 of your hp? I think the offensive tree could use a rework in general but until that happens it'd be nice to still have the crit on certain champs since I'm sure everyone would still take a new skill if it was a prereq for 10%crit dmg if they went IE anyway. Source? If it was already posted: must have missed it. I guess the engine should allow stuff like that. What point is there in removing the crit mastery (or making it weak at the beginning) without removing crit runes?
It was posted a page or 2 back. And the point is because any AD is going to get the 4% crit for the 10% crit damage because there is nothing else worth taking. So what happens is lanes break early because 2 evenly skilled players who would normally just farm with minor harass/skirmishes are doing the same but now one of them will get a lucky crit and often win the lane because of it. People aren't complaining about crit runes/ashes passive and other crit abilities because they can be counterplayed and with runes you have to give something up for the crit (ad, arpen, etc).
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EPT
