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Want to rage about your latest loss? Use the QQ thread. If you whine in GD, you'll get warned. |
On December 09 2011 13:12 WaveofShadow wrote:
What I noticed most in watching DotA 2 streams vs LoL is that in both games, people can just explode in a second. In LoL it's more likely to be a whole team doing it to you while in DotA there are a bunch of heroes that can do it themselves. Fight's are much faster paced while in LoL they take a little while longer to go down (higher survivability, lower damage as a whole).
The other major differences I see is that autoattacks are WAY more important in DotA than LoL because of LoL's low spell cooldowns, so in general 'hypercarries' have stronger autoattacks for taking out enemy heroes and stronger spells to one/two-shot them because all they can do once they've spent their spells is run around and auto and chase people down.
It just has to do with the general pacing of the game; DotA seems much more fast-paced with fights being short, frequent and bursty with very little action, and can take place all over the map. LoL's teamfights are all about positioning, cc, tankiness/peeling and tend to happen in specific places (objectives), lasting a little while longer and happening every 5 or so minutes in the mid-endgame. DotA's style favors hypercarries in this way whereas LoL does not; it is basically impossible to hypercarry in LoL due to the game design.
So basically league is more strategic right? (positioning, teamwork etc)
Also I don't really like the concept of hypercarries.
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On December 09 2011 13:22 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote:
I do really different item sequence of ww - though better players will probably find it to be unoptimal. It has always worked for me tho so whatever.
Basically philo stone -> wriggle's for imba sustain. Then finish boots + get a recurve bow to farm everything -> Wit's end-> large belt + GA for survivability -> madreds + sell wriggles for lifesteal item of ur choice.
U can atleast 1v3 people cuz of ur imba sustain.
that actually sounds pretty standard to me. altho, typically ww builds are a bit more malleable. He can pretty much build w/e he wants, as long as the majority of it is tanky.
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On December 09 2011 13:32 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 13:22 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote:
I do really different item sequence of ww - though better players will probably find it to be unoptimal. It has always worked for me tho so whatever.
Basically philo stone -> wriggle's for imba sustain. Then finish boots + get a recurve bow to farm everything -> Wit's end-> large belt + GA for survivability -> madreds + sell wriggles for lifesteal item of ur choice.
U can atleast 1v3 people cuz of ur imba sustain. that actually sounds pretty standard to me. altho, typically ww builds are a bit more malleable. He can pretty much build w/e he wants, as long as the majority of it is tanky.
Hmm, well way back when I read the ww thread spirit visage was said to be mandatory on him. Also somebody said don't build health on ww. Maybe things have changed now tho.
I don't like visage that much - wriggle's increases ur sustain even more plus makes him a crazy good farmer with a recurve. But then, wriggles is prolly broken right now - never a situation where it is actually bad.
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On December 09 2011 13:27 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 13:12 WaveofShadow wrote:
What I noticed most in watching DotA 2 streams vs LoL is that in both games, people can just explode in a second. In LoL it's more likely to be a whole team doing it to you while in DotA there are a bunch of heroes that can do it themselves. Fight's are much faster paced while in LoL they take a little while longer to go down (higher survivability, lower damage as a whole).
The other major differences I see is that autoattacks are WAY more important in DotA than LoL because of LoL's low spell cooldowns, so in general 'hypercarries' have stronger autoattacks for taking out enemy heroes and stronger spells to one/two-shot them because all they can do once they've spent their spells is run around and auto and chase people down.
It just has to do with the general pacing of the game; DotA seems much more fast-paced with fights being short, frequent and bursty with very little action, and can take place all over the map. LoL's teamfights are all about positioning, cc, tankiness/peeling and tend to happen in specific places (objectives), lasting a little while longer and happening every 5 or so minutes in the mid-endgame. DotA's style favors hypercarries in this way whereas LoL does not; it is basically impossible to hypercarry in LoL due to the game design. So basically league is more strategic right? (positioning, teamwork etc) Also I don't really like the concept of hypercarries.
Comparing the two is silly. If anything just play both since they are probably going to be F2P.
The reason LoL seems positioning oriented is because mobility is limited. Trees are indestructible, blink is limited to a long cooldown or champion specific, and hard cc is not as common.
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On December 09 2011 13:40 rwrzr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 13:27 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote:On December 09 2011 13:12 WaveofShadow wrote:
What I noticed most in watching DotA 2 streams vs LoL is that in both games, people can just explode in a second. In LoL it's more likely to be a whole team doing it to you while in DotA there are a bunch of heroes that can do it themselves. Fight's are much faster paced while in LoL they take a little while longer to go down (higher survivability, lower damage as a whole).
The other major differences I see is that autoattacks are WAY more important in DotA than LoL because of LoL's low spell cooldowns, so in general 'hypercarries' have stronger autoattacks for taking out enemy heroes and stronger spells to one/two-shot them because all they can do once they've spent their spells is run around and auto and chase people down.
It just has to do with the general pacing of the game; DotA seems much more fast-paced with fights being short, frequent and bursty with very little action, and can take place all over the map. LoL's teamfights are all about positioning, cc, tankiness/peeling and tend to happen in specific places (objectives), lasting a little while longer and happening every 5 or so minutes in the mid-endgame. DotA's style favors hypercarries in this way whereas LoL does not; it is basically impossible to hypercarry in LoL due to the game design. So basically league is more strategic right? (positioning, teamwork etc) Also I don't really like the concept of hypercarries. Comparing the two is silly. If anything just play both since they are probably going to be F2P. The reason LoL seems positioning oriented is because mobility is limited. Trees are indestructible, blink is limited to a long cooldown or champion specific, and hard cc is not as common.
Wait what? Is DOTA2 going to be f2p??
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United States47024 Posts
On December 09 2011 13:12 WaveofShadow wrote:
It just has to do with the general pacing of the game; DotA seems much more fast-paced with fights being short, frequent and bursty with very little action, and can take place all over the map. LoL's teamfights are all about positioning, cc, tankiness/peeling and tend to happen in specific places (objectives), lasting a little while longer and happening every 5 or so minutes in the mid-endgame. DotA's style favors hypercarries in this way whereas LoL does not; it is basically impossible to hypercarry in LoL due to the game design.
There are two other relevant issues that inhibit "hypercarries" as far as they exist in DotA. The first is that you can't efficiently funnel all the farm onto one person. DotA has TPs, denying allows you to more smoothly freeze a lane in an arbitrary place, and the jungle has significantly more gold, which means that a carry can TP around farming multiple lanes and jungle, and always be getting a significant rate of gold gain if a team makes room for him to do so (stacking jungle camps, etc.). LoL doesn't have these mechanics, so its much harder to funnel farm onto a single person. You basically have to run 2-3 carry comps because it's pretty much impossible to play a 4-protects-1 where 1 person gets farm everywhere all the time.
The other issue is that in terms of gold value, a "full build" in LoL caps out way sooner. In DotA, you have a ton of items in the 5k and 6k gold range as far as items. In LoL, most roles only have access to one or two sensible 4k-ish gold items, and most items are around 3k gold. Even if you account for the different value of gold in both games, a carry's 6 item lategame in LoL is not 5 4k gold items. It's 1 4k gold item, and a mix of 2-3k gold items.
On December 09 2011 13:18 UniversalSnip wrote:
Not like you don't have cc blockers in league of legends, I think QSS is one of the most underused items in the game.
I dunno what you can do to make banshees not broken and not garbage, it's super niche (read: bad except vs a very few specific things like blitz hook) right now and it was pretty stupid before. Maybe load more of it's utility on the shield, give it a really short cooldown, and make the other stats awful. With it's current CD I can't even elevate it to the level of 'not strong', it just doesn't *work* because it always eats poke or something.
QSS just isn't comparable. Against a team that's managing it's CC properly, it breaks a 2 second stun at best. That's nothing compared to 10 seconds of complete Magic Immunity.
Though BKB is pretty clunky as far as its design goes, seeing as one of the major balancing factors is that CC on most ults goes through BKB.
On December 09 2011 13:43 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote:
Wait what? Is DOTA2 going to be f2p??
It will if it wants to succeed DotA 1. A $50 retail pricetag isn't going to capture the Chinese market.
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@theyango I remember reading somewhere that minion kills supposedly net you more gold in DOTA, which makes up for the expensive items. is that true?
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United States47024 Posts
On December 09 2011 14:12 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote:
@theyango I remember reading somewhere that minions kills net you more gold in DOTA, which basically makes up for the expensive items.
Right, I'm accounting for that.
If you assume Radiance and Infinity Edge are worth the same amount of farming effort (reasonable since carries in either game expect to farm them in ~20 minutes), that's an equivalence of 5k gold in DotA = 4k gold in LoL. But in DotA, a carry's 6-item lategame consists of 5 items that are all equal or greater value than Radiance, whereas in LoL, a carry's 6-item lategame consists of items that are all worth significantly less than IE (IE usually being the only one that's actually worth more than 3k gold).
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Morello says that they are thinking about removing the 4% crit mastery.
Originally Posted by Borigrad
Just remove the masteries and replace them with something else. Its only the masteries that are problematic, since you trade so many valuable stats by going Crit runes/quints.
Originally Posted by Morello
That's our current line of thinking.
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On December 09 2011 14:41 GreenManalishi wrote:Morello says that they are thinking about removing the 4% crit mastery. Show nested quote +Originally Posted by Borigrad
Just remove the masteries and replace them with something else. Its only the masteries that are problematic, since you trade so many valuable stats by going Crit runes/quints.
They need to. Its currently the most broken thing in the game.
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On December 09 2011 13:59 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 13:12 WaveofShadow wrote:
It just has to do with the general pacing of the game; DotA seems much more fast-paced with fights being short, frequent and bursty with very little action, and can take place all over the map. LoL's teamfights are all about positioning, cc, tankiness/peeling and tend to happen in specific places (objectives), lasting a little while longer and happening every 5 or so minutes in the mid-endgame. DotA's style favors hypercarries in this way whereas LoL does not; it is basically impossible to hypercarry in LoL due to the game design. There are two other relevant issues that inhibit "hypercarries" as far as they exist in DotA. The first is that you can't efficiently funnel all the farm onto one person. DotA has TPs, denying allows you to more smoothly freeze a lane in an arbitrary place, and the jungle has significantly more gold, which means that a carry can TP around farming multiple lanes and jungle, and always be getting a significant rate of gold gain if a team makes room for him to do so (stacking jungle camps, etc.). LoL doesn't have these mechanics, so its much harder to funnel farm onto a single person. You basically have to run 2-3 carry comps because it's pretty much impossible to play a 4-protects-1 where 1 person gets farm everywhere all the time. The other issue is that in terms of gold value, a "full build" in LoL caps out way sooner. In DotA, you have a ton of items in the 5k and 6k gold range as far as items. In LoL, most roles only have access to one or two sensible 4k-ish gold items, and most items are around 3k gold. Even if you account for the different value of gold in both games, a carry's 6 item lategame in LoL is not 5 4k gold items. It's 1 4k gold item, and a mix of 2-3k gold items. Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 13:18 UniversalSnip wrote:
Not like you don't have cc blockers in league of legends, I think QSS is one of the most underused items in the game.
I dunno what you can do to make banshees not broken and not garbage, it's super niche (read: bad except vs a very few specific things like blitz hook) right now and it was pretty stupid before. Maybe load more of it's utility on the shield, give it a really short cooldown, and make the other stats awful. With it's current CD I can't even elevate it to the level of 'not strong', it just doesn't *work* because it always eats poke or something. QSS just isn't comparable. Against a team that's managing it's CC properly, it breaks a 2 second stun at best. That's nothing compared to 10 seconds of complete Magic Immunity. Though BKB is pretty clunky as far as its design goes, seeing as one of the major balancing factors is that CC on most ults goes through BKB. Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 13:43 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote:
Wait what? Is DOTA2 going to be f2p?? It will if it wants to succeed DotA 1. A $50 retail pricetag isn't going to capture the Chinese market.
it's highly unlikely DotA2 will be f2p. It's probably going to be relatively cheap, however. And I remember reading somewhere that Valve may do different pricing structures for US/EU and Asia.
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On December 09 2011 15:16 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 13:59 TheYango wrote:On December 09 2011 13:12 WaveofShadow wrote:
It just has to do with the general pacing of the game; DotA seems much more fast-paced with fights being short, frequent and bursty with very little action, and can take place all over the map. LoL's teamfights are all about positioning, cc, tankiness/peeling and tend to happen in specific places (objectives), lasting a little while longer and happening every 5 or so minutes in the mid-endgame. DotA's style favors hypercarries in this way whereas LoL does not; it is basically impossible to hypercarry in LoL due to the game design. There are two other relevant issues that inhibit "hypercarries" as far as they exist in DotA. The first is that you can't efficiently funnel all the farm onto one person. DotA has TPs, denying allows you to more smoothly freeze a lane in an arbitrary place, and the jungle has significantly more gold, which means that a carry can TP around farming multiple lanes and jungle, and always be getting a significant rate of gold gain if a team makes room for him to do so (stacking jungle camps, etc.). LoL doesn't have these mechanics, so its much harder to funnel farm onto a single person. You basically have to run 2-3 carry comps because it's pretty much impossible to play a 4-protects-1 where 1 person gets farm everywhere all the time. The other issue is that in terms of gold value, a "full build" in LoL caps out way sooner. In DotA, you have a ton of items in the 5k and 6k gold range as far as items. In LoL, most roles only have access to one or two sensible 4k-ish gold items, and most items are around 3k gold. Even if you account for the different value of gold in both games, a carry's 6 item lategame in LoL is not 5 4k gold items. It's 1 4k gold item, and a mix of 2-3k gold items. On December 09 2011 13:18 UniversalSnip wrote:
Not like you don't have cc blockers in league of legends, I think QSS is one of the most underused items in the game.
I dunno what you can do to make banshees not broken and not garbage, it's super niche (read: bad except vs a very few specific things like blitz hook) right now and it was pretty stupid before. Maybe load more of it's utility on the shield, give it a really short cooldown, and make the other stats awful. With it's current CD I can't even elevate it to the level of 'not strong', it just doesn't *work* because it always eats poke or something. QSS just isn't comparable. Against a team that's managing it's CC properly, it breaks a 2 second stun at best. That's nothing compared to 10 seconds of complete Magic Immunity. Though BKB is pretty clunky as far as its design goes, seeing as one of the major balancing factors is that CC on most ults goes through BKB. On December 09 2011 13:43 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote:
Wait what? Is DOTA2 going to be f2p?? It will if it wants to succeed DotA 1. A $50 retail pricetag isn't going to capture the Chinese market. it's highly unlikely DotA2 will be f2p. It's probably going to be relatively cheap, however. And I remember reading somewhere that Valve may do different pricing structures for US/EU and Asia. Pretty much every single game out there has a different pricing stratergy for asia.
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On December 09 2011 13:22 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote:
I do really different item sequence of ww - though better players will probably find it to be unoptimal. It has always worked for me tho so whatever.
Basically philo stone -> wriggle's for imba sustain. Then finish boots + get a recurve bow to farm everything -> Wit's end-> large belt + GA for survivability -> madreds + sell wriggles for lifesteal item of ur choice. ->belt into warmogs
U can atleast 1v3 people cuz of ur imba sustain.
Why would you build lifesteal when you don't build AD? His passive scales only in Aspd.
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On December 09 2011 16:27 mr_tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 13:22 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote:
I do really different item sequence of ww - though better players will probably find it to be unoptimal. It has always worked for me tho so whatever.
Basically philo stone -> wriggle's for imba sustain. Then finish boots + get a recurve bow to farm everything -> Wit's end-> large belt + GA for survivability -> madreds + sell wriggles for lifesteal item of ur choice. ->belt into warmogs
U can atleast 1v3 people cuz of ur imba sustain. Why would you build lifesteal when you don't build AD? His passive scales only in Aspd.
Madreds and Wit's end both contribute to lifesteal.
Edit: nvm I'm just dumb :/
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On December 09 2011 16:33 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 16:27 mr_tolkien wrote:On December 09 2011 13:22 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote:
I do really different item sequence of ww - though better players will probably find it to be unoptimal. It has always worked for me tho so whatever.
Basically philo stone -> wriggle's for imba sustain. Then finish boots + get a recurve bow to farm everything -> Wit's end-> large belt + GA for survivability -> madreds + sell wriggles for lifesteal item of ur choice. ->belt into warmogs
U can atleast 1v3 people cuz of ur imba sustain. Why would you build lifesteal when you don't build AD? His passive scales only in Aspd. Madreds and Wit's end both contribute to lifesteal. Try it out a bit.
nvm
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I really don't understand why you would build life steal items on ww when getting cooldown reduction through masteries and frozen heart should be giving you incredible amounts of sustain if you have high resistances. Wriggles is good for laning but other than that....
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On December 09 2011 13:27 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 13:12 WaveofShadow wrote:
What I noticed most in watching DotA 2 streams vs LoL is that in both games, people can just explode in a second. In LoL it's more likely to be a whole team doing it to you while in DotA there are a bunch of heroes that can do it themselves. Fight's are much faster paced while in LoL they take a little while longer to go down (higher survivability, lower damage as a whole).
The other major differences I see is that autoattacks are WAY more important in DotA than LoL because of LoL's low spell cooldowns, so in general 'hypercarries' have stronger autoattacks for taking out enemy heroes and stronger spells to one/two-shot them because all they can do once they've spent their spells is run around and auto and chase people down.
It just has to do with the general pacing of the game; DotA seems much more fast-paced with fights being short, frequent and bursty with very little action, and can take place all over the map. LoL's teamfights are all about positioning, cc, tankiness/peeling and tend to happen in specific places (objectives), lasting a little while longer and happening every 5 or so minutes in the mid-endgame. DotA's style favors hypercarries in this way whereas LoL does not; it is basically impossible to hypercarry in LoL due to the game design. So basically league is more strategic right? (positioning, teamwork etc) Also I don't really like the concept of hypercarries.
No.
The technical skill ceiling in DotA is much higher, and the amount and skill in decision making is much more fleshed out due to how long the game has been around. Not to mention, you're trying to draw conclusions based on one person's observations, and at that, one who admittedly doesn't play DotA. Not to mention the comparison itself is just silly, especially considering you didn't define what you mean by "strategic" and don't seem to be good enough at either game to actually make a meaningful comparison of something abstract and high-level like the strategic quality of either game.
You're making judgments off a characterization from someone who doesn't play DotA and without the proper knowledge of both games to actually make a substantive argument. Meh.
On December 09 2011 14:41 GreenManalishi wrote:Morello says that they are thinking about removing the 4% crit mastery. Show nested quote +Originally Posted by Borigrad
Just remove the masteries and replace them with something else. Its only the masteries that are problematic, since you trade so many valuable stats by going Crit runes/quints.
What did I say about that early game crit chance? SUCK IT.
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On December 09 2011 16:33 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 16:27 mr_tolkien wrote:On December 09 2011 13:22 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote:
I do really different item sequence of ww - though better players will probably find it to be unoptimal. It has always worked for me tho so whatever.
Basically philo stone -> wriggle's for imba sustain. Then finish boots + get a recurve bow to farm everything -> Wit's end-> large belt + GA for survivability -> madreds + sell wriggles for lifesteal item of ur choice. ->belt into warmogs
U can atleast 1v3 people cuz of ur imba sustain. Why would you build lifesteal when you don't build AD? His passive scales only in Aspd. Madreds and Wit's end both contribute to lifesteal. Try it out a bit. Edit: also wriggle's REALLY speeds up his farming.
If by madreds you mean MBR then no, it doesn't lifesteal.
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On December 09 2011 17:05 JackDino wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 16:33 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote:On December 09 2011 16:27 mr_tolkien wrote:On December 09 2011 13:22 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote:
I do really different item sequence of ww - though better players will probably find it to be unoptimal. It has always worked for me tho so whatever.
Basically philo stone -> wriggle's for imba sustain. Then finish boots + get a recurve bow to farm everything -> Wit's end-> large belt + GA for survivability -> madreds + sell wriggles for lifesteal item of ur choice. ->belt into warmogs
U can atleast 1v3 people cuz of ur imba sustain. Why would you build lifesteal when you don't build AD? His passive scales only in Aspd. Madreds and Wit's end both contribute to lifesteal. Try it out a bit. Edit: also wriggle's REALLY speeds up his farming. If by madreds you mean MBR then no, it doesn't lifesteal.
It gives attack speed...
WW's passive is based on attack speed?
Jesus, read the thread, its been said before.
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