|
Want to rage about your latest loss? Use the QQ thread. If you whine in GD, you'll get warned. |
On December 05 2011 19:18 Craton wrote:
You need to stop thinking like someone who knows how to play the game. BOTH people at that level are bad and miss a ton of CS. It's not a matter of one person being a seasoned vet that can last hit like a pro while the other is a bright-eyed, clueless newbie.
Low level jungling really is more about roughly 15-29 than it is 1-5. There's simply no reason for people that new to the game to even be jungling, as they have no idea what the point of being there is. Note that level 5 can be as little as 3 or 4 games played and that level 10 isn't much more.
Yeah, you know, you're completely right. I wasn't considering this from a new player's perspective at all, only considering what would be optimal for a new player, and I failed to recognize the difference. My bad.
|
I tried that smartcast indicator thing out vs bots and boy is that awkward as hell to use. I would rather have something that would just keep the indicator on while the champion was trying to execute the command (while you're running at them trying to cast something). Right now it's too awkward, since the point of smartcasting is rapidfiring abilities, but this slows that process down. I guess this would be good for long range skillshots, but it's not for targeted abilities.
|
In the new jungle you aren´t supposed to keep up the respawns. The banking system was introduced to lessen the impact of the junglers that could "keep up". Camps still are worth the most Gold per minute if you kill them on respawn but don´t loose as much value while they are alive.
An interesting consequence is that blueside bottom taking their minigolems now actually decreases their junglers income slightly instead of not at all.
I´m certain there will be more tweaks to the XP and Gold values but the jungle will never be like it was after the mastery changes.
|
On December 05 2011 19:58 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 19:18 Craton wrote:
You need to stop thinking like someone who knows how to play the game. BOTH people at that level are bad and miss a ton of CS. It's not a matter of one person being a seasoned vet that can last hit like a pro while the other is a bright-eyed, clueless newbie.
Low level jungling really is more about roughly 15-29 than it is 1-5. There's simply no reason for people that new to the game to even be jungling, as they have no idea what the point of being there is. Note that level 5 can be as little as 3 or 4 games played and that level 10 isn't much more. Yeah, you know, you're completely right. I wasn't considering this from a new player's perspective at all, only considering what would be optimal for a new player, and I failed to recognize the difference. My bad.
I sometimes think though that this is the problematic part about balancing sth. It is hard enough to balance if you assume that the players will perform close to "optimal". Taking into account thar people will behave more or less bad, makes it harder if not impossible to balance. I understand the motivation to make jungling more accessible but if you break it in the process for high level play, you will make things worse. New players will learn how to jungle, only to realize, that it is broken. So imho jungling must always work on the highest level and then you can try to make it accessible. On top of that I think there is nothing wrong with complicated mechanics, that need to be learned at a high level to play. It adds depth to the game and gives pro possibilities to showcase their talent.
|
On December 05 2011 20:10 Unentschieden wrote:
An interesting consequence is that blueside bottom taking their minigolems now actually decreases their junglers income slightly instead of not at all.
It's 1 minute to start banking and I'm killing them by about 3:10, so 30 seconds of "banking" can't be worth much more than ~2g and little to no exp. Still better for bot to take them.
|
Hey guys, as i am playing with a friend who recently decided, he wants t ojungle instead of me, i have started playing some of the other roles of the game a lot more. I do fine as support, and my ad-carry isn't too bad, but midlane i just suck. Mostly because i only have annie, ryze and karthus. However, i don't really user karthus as i hate him, leaving ryze and annie. Yesterday was annie-day, it could as well have been totalselfdestruction-day tough. I lost against 2 Kassadins, a brand, a fizz, a ryze and 2 leblancs. Now, i consider all of those as nice counters to annie, with the exception of ryze, who snowballed after i made some mistakes at the start. The question is, am i that bad or is there no way to not be just dominate against kass, fizz, brand, leblanc (in that order). Against kass, i wasn't even able to last hit, cause i would just eat the silence and lose 1/4 of my health. fizz just junps at me and brand aoes under my feet. i might get them on reaching level 6 or if they try to dive me, but at that point they have denied soooo many cs. So back to the question, i am bad and i know, but how am i supposed to play against those champs? Is there a good defensive alternative for mid that does aoe-damage and scales well into lategame? I am willing to be defensive for the first 10 levels, i just want to be able to farm creeps.
|
On December 05 2011 20:22 Craton wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 20:10 Unentschieden wrote:
An interesting consequence is that blueside bottom taking their minigolems now actually decreases their junglers income slightly instead of not at all. It's 1 minute to start banking and I'm killing them by about 3:10, so 30 seconds of "banking" can't be worth much more than ~2g and little to no exp. Still better for bot to take them.
This and the fact that the second respawn will give more gold/xp so if your bot clears them and their top doesn't your jungle will be slightly ahead.
|
On December 05 2011 20:24 Broetchenholer wrote:
Hey guys, as i am playing with a friend who recently decided, he wants t ojungle instead of me, i have started playing some of the other roles of the game a lot more. I do fine as support, and my ad-carry isn't too bad, but midlane i just suck. Mostly because i only have annie, ryze and karthus. However, i don't really user karthus as i hate him, leaving ryze and annie. Yesterday was annie-day, it could as well have been totalselfdestruction-day tough. I lost against 2 Kassadins, a brand, a fizz, a ryze and 2 leblancs. Now, i consider all of those as nice counters to annie, with the exception of ryze, who snowballed after i made some mistakes at the start. The question is, am i that bad or is there no way to not be just dominate against kass, fizz, brand, leblanc (in that order). Against kass, i wasn't even able to last hit, cause i would just eat the silence and lose 1/4 of my health. fizz just junps at me and brand aoes under my feet. i might get them on reaching level 6 or if they try to dive me, but at that point they have denied soooo many cs. So back to the question, i am bad and i know, but how am i supposed to play against those champs? Is there a good defensive alternative for mid that does aoe-damage and scales well into lategame? I am willing to be defensive for the first 10 levels, i just want to be able to farm creeps.
don't discount ryze or karthus
ryze is a particularly strong champ once you get his playstyle down - he's good at all stages of the game including laning against other mages
karthus is a champ that wins few matchups but loses 0 matchups. you can always default to falling back to maximum Q range and farming up until you're an unstoppable damage machine.
as for playing against the champs you listed...
kass - don't play a mage against kass (except ryze maybe). you won't win. ask to switch lanes. if you must, auto attack him heavily in the first 4 levels before his Q starts to become overpowering. if he wants to use Q pre-5, he's essentially wasting mana. stock up on health pots, outlast his harass, and kill him at 4/5 with your combo.
brand - dodge his skillshots. seriously that's all there is to it. if he hits skillshots brand has some of the highest damage output in the game. if you dodge them he's no problem. open boots + 3 pots against brand 100% of the time.
fizz - dunno about fizz v annie but fizz is pretty strong in general. don't really have any tips on how to beat fizz because i only ever see him win lanes. i would try to abuse annie's extremely long auto attack range to kite him a bit. when he gets close enough to engage, full combo him and back off. you might come out even in trades if you do that.
leblanc - leblanc v annie is just a skill-based matchup. they have similar playstyles and burst levels. whoever is better between you and your opponent will win. take solace in the fact that annie has a lategame presence, though. even if leblanc beats you you can just farm up and win lategame
|
On December 05 2011 20:24 Broetchenholer wrote:
Hey guys, as i am playing with a friend who recently decided, he wants t ojungle instead of me, i have started playing some of the other roles of the game a lot more. I do fine as support, and my ad-carry isn't too bad, but midlane i just suck. Mostly because i only have annie, ryze and karthus. However, i don't really user karthus as i hate him, leaving ryze and annie. Yesterday was annie-day, it could as well have been totalselfdestruction-day tough. I lost against 2 Kassadins, a brand, a fizz, a ryze and 2 leblancs. Now, i consider all of those as nice counters to annie, with the exception of ryze, who snowballed after i made some mistakes at the start. The question is, am i that bad or is there no way to not be just dominate against kass, fizz, brand, leblanc (in that order). Against kass, i wasn't even able to last hit, cause i would just eat the silence and lose 1/4 of my health. fizz just junps at me and brand aoes under my feet. i might get them on reaching level 6 or if they try to dive me, but at that point they have denied soooo many cs. So back to the question, i am bad and i know, but how am i supposed to play against those champs? Is there a good defensive alternative for mid that does aoe-damage and scales well into lategame? I am willing to be defensive for the first 10 levels, i just want to be able to farm creeps.
Well, Kass and Leblanc utterly shit on Annie. Not much you can do here. However, if you aren't going Boots + 3 pots to start, that is definitely an issue. I think (could be wrong) that Annie's auto attack is just as long range, if not longer, than Kass's Q. Regardless, her AA is massive range, use it.
I don't really consider Brand to be a counter to Annie ever since his E range nerf. I stopped playing him after the nerf just cuz I couldn't adjust well enough. If you have lvl 1 boots, there really is no reason for his W to hit you. It's very hard to hit a moving, unpredictable target.
Cass can farm with her Q if she's getting completely zoned, but she is pretty squishy until she gets her catalyst. She scales very well into late game though. Honestly, the best counter to Kass or LB mid is an AD carry, but I find in Solo queue that it's hard to convince people to do this. Swain can do well vs Kass if you know how to play him. I've had some success with Kennen vs LB just because he's a bit more tanky and he can poke (or farm) all day with his shurikens.
|
650 range, but autoattack range is measured differently from ability range
I stopped playing him after the nerf just cuz I couldn't adjust well enough
AKA MAD CUZ BAD B)
|
I never got to really prove it because I'm too bad to lasthit while harassing as Annie (I'm like, HORRIBLE), but I still feel like Annie actually beats Kass if you set her runes/masteries up like a ranged AD (you don't need the crit masteries of course, try to get both MPen and +5% AP, didn't try it with new masteries yet) and go to town on Kass with autoattacks. Should be WAY stronger now after the range nerf to Kass Q and the minion damage nerf. Not sure who gets the better end of the new masteries.
Same thing goes for Annie vs Sion, just nuke his shield down 24/7 and spam autoattacks.
Biggest issue: Jungle ganks.
The loss of some AP/MPen runes isn't that big if you win your lane because of it.
|
On December 05 2011 22:28 spinesheath wrote:
Same thing goes for Annie vs Sion, just nuke his shield down 24/7 and spam autoattacks.
You won't be mana-effective if he his playing intelligently (not more than 1AA in his shield)
|
On December 05 2011 22:28 spinesheath wrote:
I never got to really prove it because I'm too bad to lasthit while harassing as Annie (I'm like, HORRIBLE), but I still feel like Annie actually beats Kass if you set her runes/masteries up like a ranged AD (you don't need the crit masteries of course, try to get both MPen and +5% AP, didn't try it with new masteries yet) and go to town on Kass with autoattacks. Should be WAY stronger now after the range nerf to Kass Q and the minion damage nerf. Not sure who gets the better end of the new masteries.
Same thing goes for Annie vs Sion, just nuke his shield down 24/7 and spam autoattacks.
Biggest issue: Jungle ganks.
The loss of some AP/MPen runes isn't that big if you win your lane because of it.
Seems viable. I'll have to try that out.
|
On December 05 2011 20:10 Unentschieden wrote:
In the new jungle you aren´t supposed to keep up the respawns. The banking system was introduced to lessen the impact of the junglers that could "keep up". Camps still are worth the most Gold per minute if you kill them on respawn but don´t loose as much value while they are alive.
An interesting consequence is that blueside bottom taking their minigolems now actually decreases their junglers income slightly instead of not at all.
I´m certain there will be more tweaks to the XP and Gold values but the jungle will never be like it was after the mastery changes.
Making the few strong junglers even stronger and the other 400 champions useless.
|
I don't know what everyone's problem with adapting to the new jungle is, you just gank everyone every 10 seconds and smite steal the enemy's big creeps, nothing complicated.
What's really nice is if your mid has good aoe damage, kill the big wraith and get them to finish off the small ones. Especially useful when my friend is mid veigar cos he gets free 12 gold and I get 47 and save time.
p.s. nunu, mundo, gp super good in jungle now
|
How good is Nunu in the new jungle? Eating the enemy big minion ever five seconds must be annoying as hell. Also, what are everybodies thoughts on jungle LeBlanc, If the red buff is applied by q and e she has 3 cooldowns to apply the slow and auto attacks that apply it as well. Feeding LeBlanc a double buff is like asking her to kill everybody on the map in the next 3 minutes.
Edit: Oh you edited to tell me what I already thought about Nunu.
|
On December 05 2011 22:49 mr_tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 22:28 spinesheath wrote:
Same thing goes for Annie vs Sion, just nuke his shield down 24/7 and spam autoattacks.
You won't be mana-effective if he his playing intelligently (not more than 1AA in his shield)
That's true, but you pretty much deny all his cs, so it's fine if you back frequently.
You also should make sure that you get an early blue buff if you do this, as Kass/Sion will get plenty of support from their jungler and an early blue buff without a doubt. If they get blue and you don't, you lose.
|
i love how strong xerath is, his late game (even early) is so powerful
love it when in team fights everyone loves to clump together then BOOM, 80% mpen melt everything
|
On December 05 2011 17:16 Kaniol wrote:
Speaking of junglers - is it just me or is jungle gp coming back from the realm of forgotten?
I like GP just cuz you can max q first and actually get income in the jungle.
|
Eh, Nunu seems like trash what x.x
Sure early on (like first 10 minutes) he can instakill the big creeps, but the creeps scale so fast that nunu jungles REALLY slowly after a little bit, making his terrible lategame scaling happen even faster.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
