EPT[Patch 1.0.0.129: Fizz] General Discussion - Page 64
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Craton
United States17250 Posts
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Navi
5286 Posts
your relative mobilities, strength in 1v1 (if they turn and fight or you catch up), your strength in 2v2, 3v3, XvX's as you expect them to arise, what you can do if you stay in your lane and push (are you a slow pusher or fast, if their jungler holds at tower vs you how worthwhile will him being there vs you being there be in terms of teamfight presence, can your jungler do anything in jungle while he's there, etc.), are all important factors to consider. lastly, your communication (if you're on vent or your teammates are mapaware, they will play accordingly; however, if they cannot defend themselves at tower or will have to give up objectives in adapting, then you probably want to come after having taken the above into consideration) is usually the deciding factor in what to do; if its in solo queue and you don't follow or spam enough pings that even the most map inaware pubbie will notice, you might eat a load of blame and proceed to lose morale and even the game. in terms of blanket advice though, it's not bad to follow at first, and then get a sense of when coming is a waste of time and when it's very effective. | ||
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SnK-Arcbound
United States4423 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 20 2011 18:03 SnK-Arcbound wrote: I think it has more do to with people not knowing what to do if someone leaves their lane. If you are only last hitting, you are wrong. If you can't push your lane quickly, then you're wrong in not following. Even if you take the turret, you're just depriving yourself of farm if you can't safely push the lane even further. The situation in which you shouldn't follow is so few you might as well make sure someone isn't fighting 2v1. No they're not. There are lots of times where one of the following is true: 1) The laner can win a 1v1 if they ambush you in a brush on your way to the fight. 2) The enemy laner misjudged how much difference he can make and is leaving to a fight he won't get to in time. 3) There's someone on the map not accounted for, and you could very easily be ambushed Xv1 while crossing the map. The situations where you shouldn't follow are by no means uncommon. It might be correct more often to follow (though I question if that's even the case), but not overwhelmingly so, and it's important as a player to learn when it's correct to do so. Exercise your own judgment, make mistakes, and learn from them. The one thing I will agree with on is that people err far more often on the side of not following than they do the other way round. | ||
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Craton
United States17250 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 20 2011 18:15 Craton wrote: If one player leaves and misses exp and cs, the other player gets an advantage. Don't care whether you're pushing hard or just last hitting, you're still getting an advantage while the other laner is roaming and doing nothing with it. Incidentally, if they shove the lane before leaving, and it's shoving to your side hard enough, you'll often deny them more CS by just last-hitting and letting their creeps kill yours, rather than trying to counterpush it really hard. | ||
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Navi
5286 Posts
On November 20 2011 18:15 Craton wrote: If one player leaves and misses exp and cs, the other player gets an advantage. Don't care whether you're pushing hard or just last hitting, you're still getting an advantage while the other laner is roaming and doing nothing with it. in the end its a team game though, and a kill is definetly worth a wave's worth of exp and gold if its achieved quickly, not even including the ease of acquiring objectives and the benefit it gives to the lane you gank for it comes down to how your lane can handle the pressure if they respond correctly, and whether or not you expect them to respond correctly lol like this one game i somehow got matched vs voyboy, and i played morg vs his grag mid i called mia and said he was prob going bot with blue @6 my bot didn't react appropriately and got killed optimally i shouldn't have had to gone bot, and just pushed mid, but given how they were pushed up and weren't playing back a couple of seconds after i told them to back, maybe going bot would have made a difference but either way, every time gragas went bot or top after that he got a kill i didn't follow him every time, in part because its gragas and he's very mobile but after a certain point the correct decisions for the laners is to give up the tower, because gragas can make diving very easy and losing a tower is better than losing 2 people and tower but the fact that the choice they have to make (give up objective) because gragas is there and i'm not is a regrettable decision so me following him around may have made a bigger difference the only way to get a really good feel for this is to play and try out following and not following in various situations, and learn from your mistakes and note the successes | ||
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
On November 20 2011 18:17 TheYango wrote: Incidentally, if they shove the lane before leaving, and it's shoving to your side hard enough, you'll often deny them more CS by just last-hitting and letting their creeps kill yours, rather than trying to counterpush it really hard. i dont follow your logic. they will always return at x time on the clock. which means y amount of minions left to spawn in the lane. the more you have killed without them being there the better? then their turret will clear up your minions? which gives you more minion kills if you suck at last hitting and some turret damage. compared to maybe the same number of kills for you, but probably more minions available for them? as the turrets dps is so high. aswell as if you arent pushing hard while against no one theres no pressure on the Xv1 to actually get the kill, they can deny xp on your ally so they actually arent falling behind while doing some form of slow gank. imagine one of them is a blitz who will pull you ally off the tower eventually (or similar) if you arent pressuring them to get something done, they can just stay together till the q lands and they get the free kill. if you are pushing a turret hard they have to make the gank work in 1 attempt or they will be miles behind. On November 20 2011 18:34 Navi wrote: in the end its a team game though, and a kill is definetly worth a wave's worth of exp and gold if its achieved quickly, not even including the ease of acquiring objectives and the benefit it gives to the lane you gank for it comes down to how your lane can handle the pressure if they respond correctly, and whether or not you expect them to respond correctly lol like this one game i somehow got matched vs voyboy, and i played morg vs his grag mid i called mia and said he was prob going bot with blue @6 my bot didn't react appropriately and got killed optimally i shouldn't have had to gone bot, and just pushed mid, but given how they were pushed up and weren't playing back a couple of seconds after i told them to back, maybe going bot would have made a difference but either way, every time gragas went bot or top after that he got a kill i didn't follow him every time, in part because its gragas and he's very mobile but after a certain point the correct decisions for the laners is to give up the tower, because gragas can make diving very easy and losing a tower is better than losing 2 people and tower but the fact that the choice they have to make (give up objective) because gragas is there and i'm not is a regrettable decision so me following him around may have made a bigger difference the only way to get a really good feel for this is to play and try out following and not following in various situations, and learn from your mistakes and note the successes the problem with this example in any discussion is that it sounds like voyboy is just raping you all no matter what?  if he just goes bot/top and gets a kill every time for whatever reason, you should probably just give up :DD its hard to have a decent opinion on reactions to roaming when the roamer kills the person instantly 100% of the time, just comes down to the people dying need to suck less or you cant make a decent choice :D | ||
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billy5000
United States865 Posts
On November 20 2011 19:55 turdburgler wrote: the problem with this example in any discussion is that it sounds like voyboy is just raping you all no matter what? if he just goes bot/top and gets a kill every time for whatever reason, you should probably just give up :DD its hard to have a decent opinion on reactions to roaming when the roamer kills the person instantly 100% of the time, just comes down to the people dying need to suck less or you cant make a decent choice :Dnavi made the right choice by calling mia, which is a decent choice imo. if top or bot dies because they didn't read chat or for whatever reason, it's obviously their fault. for example, if I were irelia with 50%hp against a cho, who pushed the lane to my tower, and I see that mid is mia, I'd probably back away from my tower and ask my jungler for assistance. in addition, i almost always have the river warded so my jungler can react immediately to help me out. | ||
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DrKlingmann
Poland356 Posts
On November 20 2011 13:41 Craton wrote: sk replaced by level 10 players wuuuut? if you say that about Empire.. you have no freaking idea who they are and how they play... This is one of the best EU teams going under radar for over a year. They haven't given much shit for tournament play. But they are there all the time with just some short breaks (and name changes). I have no idea how will they do in offline event. AND They are kinda unpredictable team cause they can easily win with EU best of the best and next game lose to some scrubs. But they are still there. Actually I think there is just 1 team better then them and it's aAa which also qualified for Kiev. Also really surprised by mtw AL performance. Hope this team is stable enough to not change their line-up too much. | ||
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NSANE.hydra
United States644 Posts
On November 20 2011 19:55 turdburgler wrote: i dont follow your logic. they will always return at x time on the clock. which means y amount of minions left to spawn in the lane. the more you have killed without them being there the better? then their turret will clear up your minions? which gives you more minion kills if you suck at last hitting and some turret damage. compared to maybe the same number of kills for you, but probably more minions available for them? as the turrets dps is so high. aswell as if you arent pushing hard while against no one theres no pressure on the Xv1 to actually get the kill, they can deny xp on your ally so they actually arent falling behind while doing some form of slow gank. imagine one of them is a blitz who will pull you ally off the tower eventually (or similar) if you arent pressuring them to get something done, they can just stay together till the q lands and they get the free kill. if you are pushing a turret hard they have to make the gank work in 1 attempt or they will be miles behind. He has more minions = he gets denied more because his minions kill yours. If he pushes with a huge minion wave and you choose not to clear it fast and counterpush, you can instead lasthit and balance the wave in front of your tower appropriately which gives you a further advantage when he returns to lane. You wont deny him as much by counterpushing because it's gonna take about 2 waves to reach his tower, which is plenty of time to return to lane and get all that experience and gold that he would've otherwise missed out on. So basically they become miles behind the longer they let you deny, rather then let you push. Also, staying in lane 2v1 is a disadvantage because you're getting reduced experience while ALSO missing all experience in another lane. If you sit in mid lane continuing to try to make a gank work, you're going to fall behind 100%. If you're pushing mid it's different, but we're talking about roaming. On November 20 2011 19:55 turdburgler wrote: the problem with this example in any discussion is that it sounds like voyboy is just raping you all no matter what? if he just goes bot/top and gets a kill every time for whatever reason, you should probably just give up :DD its hard to have a decent opinion on reactions to roaming when the roamer kills the person instantly 100% of the time, just comes down to the people dying need to suck less or you cant make a decent choice :DThat's exactly what he was saying lol. If the lanes had responded to the missing Gragas and sat back in their lanes/fell off tower Gragas would have fallen behind because of missed exp/gold, but they made bad decisions and Gragas got kills and continued to snowball off of that advantage. Therefore following him around to stop 3v2 situations would have been the better move, but with a more aware team you can just sit in lane and gain an advantage. | ||
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mr_tolkien
France8631 Posts
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
Teamfight at Dragon. What is HSGG doing? That's right. Farming. I wouldn't take it too serious if someone says something that clearly contradicts his own actions he got known for. | ||
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Haemonculus
United States6980 Posts
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Kaniol
Poland5551 Posts
On November 20 2011 06:32 Dgiese wrote: Did that Xerath DC or what? 135 cs :/ reminds me of how well ppl farm at my elo  He said it was at 1005 (1k5) Elo so i'm surprised that people got this much cs | ||
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mr_tolkien
France8631 Posts
On November 20 2011 23:48 Kaniol wrote: He said it was at 1005 (1k5) Elo so i'm surprised that people got this much cs 1k5 is 1500, the depth of Elo hell. I'm 1450 now, just faced 4 4v5 and 2 hardcore bott feeding. God solo queue ROCKS. User was warned for this post | ||
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Xedat
Germany358 Posts
Also every elo is elo hell. | ||
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JackDino
Gabon6219 Posts
On November 21 2011 00:20 Xedat wrote: This is not the QQ thread mr_tolkien. Also every elo is elo hell. 500 elo is elo heaven actually | ||
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Haemonculus
United States6980 Posts
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mr_tolkien
France8631 Posts
On November 21 2011 00:20 Xedat wrote: This is not the QQ thread mr_tolkien. Also every elo is elo hell. I heard Elo hell stopped at 3k Elo ! + Show Spoiler + You can't find matches anymore. | ||
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