EPT[Patch 1.0.0.129: Fizz] General Discussion - Page 54
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Therealdevil
Netherlands1021 Posts
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
1) This guy is a beast in a solo lane. I feel like he can crush just about anyone. If he's up against someone with no decent built-in sustain, it's almost an auto-win. The monkey eats any kind of squishy alive. If he's up against someone with some kind of built-in sustain but who doesn't open cloth+5 hp, it's almost an auto-win. If he's up against someone with a built-in sustain and a cloth+ 5 hp opening, there typically will be a window at level 5-6 where the monkey can still win. Just open cloth + 3 hp + 1 mp, get to level 3 so that you have Q, W, and E unlocked, then go to town on the enemy champ. The only champs that I have had difficulty with on a consistent basis are tryndamere (damn his heal), garen (damn his spin to win), and singed (damn his bullshit). 2) The secret to Wukong is his W. There are so many abusive uses for it. You can use it as an escape after your E+Q combo to harass with impunity. You can use it to initiate your E+Q combo by using the invisibility to close the distance with an enemy before they know what's happening. You can use it to screw with enemy champ AI to evade a counterattack to your harass while you keep attacking. You can use it as a get out of jail card whenever an enemy champ tries to harass/kill you. For such a simple skill, it truly has a lot of interesting and devious uses that can really screw with enemy players. 3) Wukong is a boss in late game teamfights. His ultimate is absolutely devastating. If you catch three or more enemy champs in it, particularly enemy squishies, (which isn't that hard), your team is almost guaranteed to win the fight. Just use flash or his W to set it up. In fact, I think it's the monkey's ult that separates him from a lot of the other strong early game champs. His utility doesn't tail off at any point during the game. He's very balanced and strong throughout all phases. Anyway, my preferred build for those who are interested: 1) cloth + 3hp + 1 mp (you need the mana pot to sustain your harass) 2) boots 3) wriggles 4) sheen 5) phage 6) merc treads 7) triforce (you should be able to complete all of this somewhere within the 20-25 min mark) This is your core. You have a lot of options after this point. If your team needs you to be tankier, go atmogs. If you want to be a little more offensive, you can do sunfire and a big damage item like bloodthirster. If your dealing with a tankier team, get a last whisper. It's really up to you and what your team needs. Wukong is very flexible. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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HeroHenry
United States1723 Posts
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LoCicero
1100 Posts
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ptrpb
Canada753 Posts
I'm having the time of my life though, playing Fizz feels a lot like playing Old Vlad, with Playful / Trickster being on such a nice cooldown it allows for some sweet escapes and some nice AoE damage in the right situations. Fizz is so fun to play. | ||
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mordek
United States12705 Posts
I remember finding his stream in the unfeatured section awhile back and him commenting on Missy being featured but not him but I could be wrong... even if I'm late to the party or just retarded I'm still glad for him ^^ | ||
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Aurdon
United States2007 Posts
On November 19 2011 03:51 HeroHenry wrote: When does the MLG games start? JBright went to some effort to answer that for you... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=285912 | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On November 19 2011 03:24 Sabin010 wrote: Have you tried multiple rune and mastery set ups for jungle Ashe since the season 2 change? Are you aware that the whole river should be warded from about 2:45 onward, and if you make a move to go kill her she will have back up? I understand its unconventional, and people just go "YOU CAN'T DO THAT!" "TOP TEAMS NEVER PLAY THAT WAY!" with out ever even trying it out. Just writitng off strategies simply because they're unorthodox. With some team work she's gonna hit 6 and you're going to have to worry about Ashe arrows from everywhere, because she can shoot it across wards, and unless you're switching camera to the ward while the arrow is in flight you're not going to see it until its too late. With the flash nerf less people are taking it, and its even harder to flash through the arrow. Or you could just, like, put Ashe mid, and have her arrow anywhere, anytime, anyways. And MUCH earlier too. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 19 2011 02:45 phyvo wrote: I believe a lot of newbies like myself are holding out for the better features of DotA 2. To be honest I'm probably no better at DotA than a random grandma off the street and after not being able to beat bots in the DotA 1 bot map without stacking things so I get carried I certainly don't feel like playing the kind of people who are still playing DotA 1 when 2's beta is out. Not even just newbies, tbh. I just like not having to deal with the annoyance of setting up dotakeys/etc. to get stuff in WC3 DotA to behave the way I want it to behave. Plus my ISP has weird issues with Garena. | ||
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mr_tolkien
France8631 Posts
On November 19 2011 03:32 JackDino wrote: Placing 4 wards @ the 2:45 minute mark is kinda retarded in solo queue, jungletwitch for example is much better since he has his passive, his Q for attackspeed and expunge for dmg, he actually can jungle without getting that low, he can force pinkies and he doesn't need a global arrow he can just pop up in your face. I'm not saying jungle ashe is bad because omg ad in da jungle I'm saying it's bad because she actually has nothing for the jungle. Twitch can clear, cait has her Q and passive for jungle, MF has her W and Q, trist would be awesome to jungle(attack speed, plenty of AoE and lolganks with W and R. Ashe just has nothing to clear the jungle other than her autos and a long volley cd and you can't exactly kite junglecreeps. Wards or no wards, someone like shaco is still gonna kill you not to mention most junglers can clear wolves+blue and go ambush you before your river is warded. Anything that is nerfed is bad until months have passed and someone decides to pick it up again and people realize it's broken and OP and all that. The new flash is really not that good. Way harder to flash through certain walls, won't save you against a ghoster at all in a 1v1 situation (was way easier before), ... Some chars have use to it (Ali, Sion, Morgana, AD carries with no escape), but on junglers and top it's not as direct as before. | ||
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Promises
Netherlands1821 Posts
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JackDino
Gabon6219 Posts
On November 19 2011 04:04 mr_tolkien wrote: The new flash is really not that good. Way harder to flash through certain walls, won't save you against a ghoster at all in a 1v1 situation (was way easier before), ... Some chars have use to it (Ali, Sion, Morgana, AD carries with no escape), but on junglers and top it's not as direct as before. Still easy to flash trough walls, just check the pic lol. | ||
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mr_tolkien
France8631 Posts
On November 19 2011 04:06 JackDino wrote: Still easy to flash trough walls, just check the pic lol. In training, yeah. In teamfights/skirmishes situation, you have to be way closer to the edge, therefore have a higher chance of failing/dying before being able to use it. I've flashed into walls at least 4 times since the changes, never had before >.< | ||
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-Kato-
Spain1146 Posts
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barbsq
United States5348 Posts
On November 19 2011 03:24 Sabin010 wrote: Have you tried multiple rune and mastery set ups for jungle Ashe since the season 2 change? Are you aware that the whole river should be warded from about 2:45 onward, and if you make a move to go kill her she will have back up? I understand its unconventional, and people just go "YOU CAN'T DO THAT!" "TOP TEAMS NEVER PLAY THAT WAY!" with out ever even trying it out. Just writitng off strategies simply because they're unorthodox. With some team work she's gonna hit 6 and you're going to have to worry about Ashe arrows from everywhere, because she can shoot it across wards, and unless you're switching camera to the ward while the arrow is in flight you're not going to see it until its too late. With the flash nerf less people are taking it, and its even harder to flash through the arrow. i'm sorry but i've seen 2 jungle ashe's now and both times they got crushed. I was lvl 7 udyr when ashe was 5, and didn't counterjungle her at all. Then i played vs her as trundle, and outleveled her 8 to 5. There just seems nothing conducive to her kit for jungling. She has no sustain, no gap closer/hard cc before arrow, and has all sorts of trouble with movespeed. Not to mention to take proper advantage of the jungle you have to use some hakneyed build that doesn't involve bf swords (wriggles, bruta, belt or something) or you'll have too little dragon presence early on (as in you wont be able to solo snipe it if they dont have a ward). It doesn't help that, like you said, she's extremely susceptible to counter-jungling. It just seems like if you REALLY wanted to jungle a ranged ad, mf, ezreal or corki would be better. granted, my evidence is 100% anecdotal, and its only over 2 games, but there just doesn't seem to be any benefits to outweigh the risks and flaws of jungling ashe. It seems to me that the only benefit of jungling ashe is that 'you can shoot arrows from anywhere', which doesn't seem that incredible, especially when it's not like an arrow from bot to mid/top is going to be any more predictable from the enemy's perspective. in regards to opening up other possibilities for bot lane, it seems like it would be a better idea to either put the ranged ad in a solo (many ''ultra sustain' champs like udyr, ww or nasus simply get kited too hard by ranged ad, so it becomes a freefarm, which tends to favor the ranged ad), ezreal solo is still incredibly potent. Several times now in our tourney games we have sent winky top as ezreal to crush cho'gath. And finally, you could just build a team without ranged ad. | ||
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mr_tolkien
France8631 Posts
On November 19 2011 04:25 barbsq wrote: And finally, you could just build a team without ranged ad. This is usually a bad idea. I've never seen really effective comps without ranged ADs, because sustained DPS has to come from somewhere. And it's very important to have a ranged AD for poking/taking turrets. Otherwise you'll have to dive a lot if you don't fight in the jungle :/ | ||
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barbsq
United States5348 Posts
On November 19 2011 04:28 mr_tolkien wrote: This is usually a bad idea. I've never seen really effective comps without ranged ADs, because sustained DPS has to come from somewhere. And it's very important to have a ranged AD for poking/taking turrets. Otherwise you'll have to dive a lot if you don't fight in the jungle :/ I've seen teams of 5 flash-initiators do very well. Splitpushing teams can also happen without ranged ad, sustained damage can come from a lot of places, there are a few ap champs (swain and rumble come to mind) and teams with lots of bulkiness and sustain (see 4 bruisers + healing support) can be effective against certain comps. Just saying a blanket statement that you HAVE to have ranged ad really limits what you can do. edit: and there are a lot of ap champs that can poke better than ranged ad's can. Granted they dont take turrets quite as well, but sacrificing an itemslot for lichbane wouldn't be unheard of | ||
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Sabin010
United States1892 Posts
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On November 19 2011 04:40 Sabin010 wrote: I mostly play in 5s on a chat client, and when an enemy Ashe arrow is shot from bot to mid/top we call it out and it usually misses. It's honestly just really sneaky to place her in a Jungle role. She does have incredibly slow clears, while Udyr has some of the fastest. With the 4 wards ganks aren't going to really be an issue until around 8 minutes, but this is similar to the timing of Ashe's first global stun. I'm sure there are better options, but its so satisfying to win with Ashe in the jungler role. When Ashe shoots an arrow from at least 2000 range, and not straight down a visible line, it's pure luck whether it hits or misses. Whether you call it or not. It's not like you can tell what exact spot she is targeting. | ||
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