EPT[Patch 1.0.0.128: Shyvana] General Discussion - Page 44
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Want to rage about your latest loss? Use the QQ thread. If you whine in GD, you'll get warned. - Neo, 9:49 KST, Nov 9th | ||
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Phrost
United States4008 Posts
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overt
United States9006 Posts
On November 03 2011 11:15 Shiv. wrote: On another note, Doublelift made SUCH a valid point when saying just because stuff isn't played in tournaments, it does not mean it isn't viable. Release Talon / current WuKong / Shaco / Sion / Tryndamere a couple of weeks ago / KATAFRICKINRINA are some good examples in my opinion. I often feel pro LoL players have their game not quite as figured out as players of other games. World of Warcraft for example is theorycrafted up to the last item. People KNOW what is best. Same goes for DotA, people KNOW their stuff. I often feel like LoL pros disregard stuff too early. Xerath was frickin superstrong from the very beginning, yet a lot of people thought he sucked. First time HSGG played Talon, he was ranting about how he was one of the worst champs EVER. It's stuff like that that really makes me think. The only bad thing about that point is that people are saying Xerath doesn't get played in tournaments because there haven't been any tournaments for Xerath yet. He's run or banned in lots of scrims between the pro teams. | ||
JBright
Vancouver14381 Posts
On November 03 2011 11:24 overt wrote: The only bad thing about that point is that people are saying Xerath doesn't get played in tournaments because there haven't been any tournaments for Xerath yet. He's run or banned in lots of scrims between the pro teams. That's true. The last major tournament was IEM NY and it was played on the Xerath patch but they just disabled him so no one could pick him. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 03 2011 11:23 Takkara wrote: Well, a lot of times, too, good team comps and strategies can compensate for champions that are weak on paper. I think it's funny that Elementz released his solo-queue tier list for the Graves patch and Heimerdinger was in his newly created Tier 5 (uber-shit tier). Think back to Dan Dinh being a real terror on his Heimerdinger at IPL. Lots of stuff is viable, it just isn't universally viable against all comps. I think your point though is that some things aren't just situational, they're actually really strong, but people don't recognize it. I think that's natural. People are lemmings and are afraid of losing ELO. They'll play what the pros they watch on stream and the people they read on forums tell them is the most effective way to win games. I don't blame them. Why wouldn't they do that? Once a pro takes a champion and dominates a tourney game or ladder session with them, I think that translates instantly to more popularity on the ladder. The thing is, in this game, no meaning for something to be unconditionally strong. Every champion has a context with the 4 champions on your team, and the 5 champions you're against. Everything is situational, it's just that the situations involving "popular" champs tend to be more common, which encourages picking champions that play well/with against those champions, which in turn makes those champions popular, etc. Then trends that people pick up in solo queue are simply because 99% of the player-base doesn't actually have a means to practice drafting champions properly (e.g. pretty much anything outside organized scrims between top teams is pretty poor practice on how to draft champions), so people copy what top players do because they have absolutely zero other way to pick up knowledge on how to pick correctly. | ||
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Shiv.
3534 Posts
On November 03 2011 11:24 overt wrote: The only bad thing about that point is that people are saying Xerath doesn't get played in tournaments because there haven't been any tournaments for Xerath yet. He's run or banned in lots of scrims between the pro teams. Xerath is just one example, though. Think about release Irelia, Talon, stuff like that. It's pretty much the same. It took people MONTHS to figure out Irelia isn't utter garbage but actually fucking godtier. I'm just curious why people at the very highest level aren't able to grasp a champion's potential. Tryndamere would be a perfect example of that. Voyboy wiped SK with his Trynd, and he hasn't effectively been changed since Skarner patch. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 03 2011 11:32 Shiv. wrote: Xerath is just one example, though. Think about release Irelia, Talon, stuff like that. It's pretty much the same. It took people MONTHS to figure out Irelia isn't utter garbage but actually fucking godtier. I'm just curious why people at the very highest level aren't able to grasp a champion's potential. Tryndamere would be a perfect example of that. Voyboy wiped SK with his Trynd, and he hasn't effectively been changed since Skarner patch. If you were on a top team, why would you announce to the world that you've just found out X champion is OP? You'd save that shit for a big tournament where it can actually win you money. I don't honestly think top players are blind to it when a champion is strong but not popular at release. I just think they have absolutely zero incentive to make it known to anyone outside their team until they have something to gain from it. Like, when teams pull out something like Sion in a tournament that people haven't seen in a long time, that's not going to be something that they just decided the day of the tournament--anything that shows up at an even its likely to have been practiced at least several times in the weeks leading up to the tournament, and likely discussed even earlier than that. | ||
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HazMat
United States17077 Posts
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tobi9999
United States1966 Posts
On November 03 2011 11:32 Shiv. wrote: Xerath is just one example, though. Think about release Irelia, Talon, stuff like that. It's pretty much the same. It took people MONTHS to figure out Irelia isn't utter garbage but actually fucking godtier. I'm just curious why people at the very highest level aren't able to grasp a champion's potential. Tryndamere would be a perfect example of that. Voyboy wiped SK with his Trynd, and he hasn't effectively been changed since Skarner patch. People who aren't pro players just aren't that open minded. For example, Udyr was the most OP piece of shit top lane, even without the wriggles proc + turtle. However I think before Rain Man destroyed with it several games on stream everyone thought that Lane udyr was the biggest troll ever. Then Riot had to nerf udyr turtle stance super hard l0l. Also, Hotshot building tanky dps nidalee, I swear to god if you did that before he did people would be like "Report this fucking warmog atmas nidalee troll" Then before Chaox built wriggles on AD carry people were like "LOL WTF GET BT FOR LIFESTEAL FUCKING NOOB" Time and time again there are examples of shit that everyone thinks sucks will become Fotm With almost 90 champions there have to be champs that are overlooked. Another thing is, Top players don't really think about champs, they see someone rape with something in solo queue and then they try it just like everyone else. However, when they try it, then everyone has to. | ||
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overt
United States9006 Posts
On November 03 2011 11:32 Shiv. wrote: Xerath is just one example, though. Think about release Irelia, Talon, stuff like that. It's pretty much the same. It took people MONTHS to figure out Irelia isn't utter garbage but actually fucking godtier. I'm just curious why people at the very highest level aren't able to grasp a champion's potential. Tryndamere would be a perfect example of that. Voyboy wiped SK with his Trynd, and he hasn't effectively been changed since Skarner patch. Tryndamere is an interesting example because after his change lots of people (like me!) said he was super strong now. He got played in solo queue at high ELO too. I'm not saying that Doublelift is wrong, I do agree with him. But I think that there are very few sleeper OP champions in the game. I was also trying to point out why bringing this issue up by talking about Xerath is a bit silly since there haven't been many tournaments for him to be played in. I think there are a lot more instances where a champion like Vayne is considered broken on release and gets played in tournaments immediately. Even Talon is a good champion because while some did say he was bad on initial release it didn't take more than a week for a lot of pros (including HotshotGG by the way) to consider Talon viable. | ||
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red_
United States8474 Posts
On November 03 2011 11:35 HazMat wrote: A TL discussion show sounds awful. Probably better than a TL Reddit discussion show but still awful. I'll host it, instantly awesome. Someone do the streaming part cause my bandwidth sucks. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On November 03 2011 11:24 Phrost wrote: Clearly you need to also include a member of the dead on the show. It wouldn't be balanced without it. Thats why we'd get shitcombo. He died, remember? | ||
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BlackMagister
United States5834 Posts
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Flicky
England2654 Posts
On November 03 2011 11:32 Shiv. wrote: Xerath is just one example, though. Think about release Irelia, Talon, stuff like that. It's pretty much the same. It took people MONTHS to figure out Irelia isn't utter garbage but actually fucking godtier. I'm just curious why people at the very highest level aren't able to grasp a champion's potential. Tryndamere would be a perfect example of that. Voyboy wiped SK with his Trynd, and he hasn't effectively been changed since Skarner patch. A lot of the time champions are dismissed as not having a place in the current game. Jatt said that about Karma on State of the League just now for example. The issue is that very few teams try to find a place for these types of characters. The only example I can think of is Epik running Heimerdinger at IPL. Heimer does not have a solid place in bog standard lineups but when you build a team around it with a s goal that plays to his strengths he is very strong. I don't if it's just the lack of actual team practice in these fields or an unwillingness to try it that's preventing this from happening. Not long ago we saw a lot of experimenting from the NA teams with running 1v2 lanes and roamers and so on but that stopped right around the time of these recent big tournaments. Perhaps we'll see some more champions gain a new role as teams practice more dilligently or perhaps it was the tournaments that stopped this. The most likely thing will be if players and so on spread the word to try new things and the like it will spread slowly throughout the community and more people will try it. But then again, if the pros find these new roles and people pick them up (the most likely way these champions will get picked, big recent example is Sion) then we're stuck in the same loop. As to your question about top players failing to grasp potential: The list of players that affect champion popularity is very slim. It's basically HotshotGG and a handful of others on a good day. Jiji plays AP TF all the time but it hasn't spread. Dyrus plays Kayle a lot and that hasn't spread either. A lot of these players have quite the ego and to them if it doesn't make sense, it's wrong. All it would take is Hotshot on stream saying X is bad and, say, RainMan agreeing and that champion is basically done in the eyes of a lot of people (for at least a few weeks). It's more complicated than that but it's down to audience and a lot of the audience are people trying to find whatever answer they can to find their easy-out of the Elo hell they think they're stuck in. If Hotshot is solo-top Evelynn at 2500 rating and winning then that must work and they're right on it. Then if someone doesn't do this they're clearly not trying to win and deserve to get reported etc etc. However, my belief is that the game is a lot more balanced than people think (well balanced as it is at the moment) and the amount of viable choices at the moment is staggering. However, I also believe that if trends don't change, within a few months something ridiculously OP is going to be found and it will need to be dealt with. Either way, I welcome the birth of the Champion hipsters that will arrive with this discussion about viable champions and look forward to people getting really into one champion and shunning all regular advice. Hell, that's how most of the top players got there, playing a champion no one thought was worth it (Nidalee, Blitzcrank, Jax etc etc) | ||
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Frolossus
United States4779 Posts
if/when someone climbs to high elo off of a previously thought UP champion then a few things happen. 1. the guy gets his 15 minutes of forum fame 2. that leads to many people copying his build/play style of that particular champion 3. people realize that the character wasn't crap after all and a new fotm is born. | ||
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Craton
United States17233 Posts
On November 03 2011 11:07 overt wrote: iirc, he worked for an indie games company. So not much better than Taco Bell honestly. lol'd at this no love for the programmer | ||
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
On November 03 2011 11:35 HazMat wrote: A TL discussion show sounds awful. Probably better than a TL Reddit discussion show but still awful. Well thanks for just shitting on all my hopes and dreams  | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On November 03 2011 12:49 jcarlsoniv wrote: Well thanks for just shitting on all my hopes and dreams Shake just salty I didnt include him on my hypothetical guest list for Champs of the Brave Table. | ||
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
Just not sure on best build. I went Boots + 3 - D Ring - D Ring - Cata - CDR Boots - ROA - Morello's, and then the game ended. It made me kinda beefy, but not very bursty, so I'm not sure what I should actually build. | ||
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