EPT[Patch 1.0.0.126: Xerath] General Discussion - Page 140
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JackDino
Gabon6219 Posts
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On October 18 2011 01:57 Slaughter wrote: Wait so you should hit the tanks who do not much damage while their carries beat on you? Seems kinda pointless to keep hitting the tanks when they have blown all their cc/disrupt crap and they are engaged with your tank. Maybe my perspective is highly skewed because I am in the depths of hell when it comes to ranked and I rarely ever see team play but in my mind melee dps should not all be focusing a tank while the other team is raping your carries. When you're playing a squishy carry (ranged is what we're talking about), you want to hit what's closest so you remain safe. Say you're playing Tristana. To hit the Caitlyn in the back of the group, you'd have to run up and put yourself in range of being attacked by their tank, and it also puts you in range of their damage dealers as well. So to hit that squishy Cait and kill her, you're opening yourself up to attacks from the tanky dps (probably two since Junglers are this usually), the Cait herself, and probably the Mage as well. In contrast, you want to stay at max range, be safe and do as much damage as you can. If you run up and do half that Cait's health, it doesn't matter because you're dead soon afterward, and a dead carry does 0 damage. If you pick at the tank from max range, yeah you're not stopping the enemy carry from hurting things, but you're also staying alive and threatening their team. You force the tank/tanky dps to run away from your onslaught, and you pick at any enemies who get close enough. | ||
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Slaughter
United States20254 Posts
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
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r.Evo
Germany14079 Posts
On October 18 2011 01:57 Slaughter wrote: Wait so you should hit the tanks who do not much damage while their carries beat on you? Seems kinda pointless to keep hitting the tanks when they have blown all their cc/disrupt crap and they are engaged with your tank. Maybe my perspective is highly skewed because I am in the depths of hell when it comes to ranked and I rarely ever see team play but in my mind melee dps should not all be focusing a tank while the other team is raping your carries. And thats what I do when Im Renek I chase people out of fights or kill them then wade right back into whoever I think is the priority target, But Tanks are usually last on my list since I do not go great dmg on them usually with Renek and they can ignore me. I main karthus tho so usually I just wall to open a fight and then wade into it so my aoe hits as many people as possible while qing whatever person is doing the most damage/disruption to my team. I just wonder why you say tank 1st when there is some person right behind them just sitting there doing massive amounts of dmg to your team and their carry ends up with 3-4 kills because everyone focused rammus while they were killing our carries so we end up aced and they lost just rammus. It pretty much goes like this: AD carry has to hit the highest priority target that does NOT put him into danger himself. If e.g. the closest target is a tanky dps who can smash his face in in melee range he has to somehow deal with this guy first. If your team (hint: Mostly solo top and jungle with the AP being caught in the middle) tries to dive the enemy carry at this point your team is in the scenario where they have AP/top/jungle vs AD/AP/jungle-scenario where the enemy team usually comes out on top. When there is a tanky dps smashing your AD carries face in means he is IN THE MIDDLE OF YOUR ENTIRE TEAM WHEN HE STARTS DOING THAT (assuming the AD positions correctly). That also means you can 5n1 him without any trouble. The worst possible scenario (from the AD's perspective) is that your own tanky dps charges their carries leaving you 1n1 with the tanky dps. | ||
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-Zoda-
France3578 Posts
On October 18 2011 02:10 Ryuu314 wrote: It's also worth mentioning that as a carry you do a significant damage to even tanks if you itemize properly aka last whisper instead of the second BT. At low elo people vastly underestimate the benefit of lw and usually opt for suboptimal items. Personnally, when I can buy LW, I check ennemies' builds before. And since they never have armor (instead of the tank guy), I buy something else. | ||
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Parnage
United States7414 Posts
I wish I was kidding. I love when I am allowed to be a ad carry in ranked. I get to just farm bot for 20 minutes then kill everyone. People rarely ward, they go crazy bot lanes that are fairly easy to beat and you get the easiest team fights so long as someone is brave enough to go in and we don't fall into awkward dance session for five minutes.. | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On October 18 2011 01:51 r.Evo wrote: Waitwhat. The problem at low elo is that PEOPLE DO NOT HIT THE TANKS, even if horribly out of position. Your judgement is completely wrong. The problem is that people tend to IGNORE tanks to get the enemy carries and neglect that your carries usually have to chew through their tanks before they can go at the real threats. If I'm a Caitlyn and there's a GP and Rammus in my face I can't hit the enemy Vayne. If my team tells me to focus her, my team is making a retarded call. The whole concept of "focus" is completely misunderstood at low elo, which your post actually shows quite well. =P The reason you have such a high winning percentage as Renekton is because the enemy team leaves their carries to 1n1 you, which means your team 4n4's with AD/AP/support/Jungle vs AP/support/jungle/solo top -> your team wins that 4n4 easily, cause you have both your main damage dealers in that fight while the enemy team lacks their AD. The correct answer to a tank or tanky dps diving your carry is to 5n1 his sorry ass and then deal with the rest of his team. Winning as tanky dps at lowish elo is all about driving enemy carries away from the fight and then coming back to 5n4. It's either they do that, or that they burn ALL of their cc abilities on you [the tank] and have none left when the rest of the team shows up 2 seconds later. | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
And he need skins, annie don't. :/ | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On October 18 2011 02:12 -Zoda- wrote: Personnally, when I can buy LW, I check ennemies' builds before. And since they never have armor (instead of the tank guy), I buy something else. I assume you meant "except", not "instead"? You have to check the items of the targets you will have to deal with offensively and defensively. If there is a Rammus who is always trying to go for you, you need LW, no matter what defenses the rest of the enemy team has. If the enemy team has 4 magic damage dealers, but the only one who you really have to deal with is physical, you need Armor and not Magic Resist. About focusing "tanks": When the enemy tank is in front of his team, you don't run past him. You actually focus on him. BUT you don't drop Tibbers on him. Low cooldown CC and damage spells as well as lots of autoattacks is what you should use. If the enemy tank is on the same line as the enemy burst caster, then you obviously try to get the caster first. You only drop a slow or other cheap CC on the tank to keep him off your ranged DPS if you need to. | ||
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Slaughter
United States20254 Posts
On October 18 2011 02:12 r.Evo wrote: It pretty much goes like this: AD carry has to hit the highest priority target that does NOT put him into danger himself. If e.g. the closest target is a tanky dps who can smash his face in in melee range he has to somehow deal with this guy first. If your team (hint: Mostly solo top and jungle with the AP being caught in the middle) tries to dive the enemy carry at this point your team is in the scenario where they have AP/top/jungle vs AD/AP/jungle-scenario where the enemy team usually comes out on top. When there is a tanky dps smashing your AD carries face in means he is IN THE MIDDLE OF YOUR ENTIRE TEAM WHEN HE STARTS DOING THAT (assuming the AD positions correctly). That also means you can 5n1 him without any trouble. The worst possible scenario (from the AD's perspective) is that your own tanky dps charges their carries leaving you 1n1 with the tanky dps. Your forgetting that at low elo (and to some extent higher elos) people don't think that that. They merely try to focus down the 1st person who comes into range, usually the tank so the only person who cares when that tanky dps is screaming bloody murder in your carries face is the person getting targeted. Basically what im saying is that there is no team work or effort besides everyone just kinda attacking who they want. No one at low elo is thinking of proper positioning or senarios of "they have AP/top/jungle vs AD/AP/Jungle. No one differentiates who on their team is possibly the most dangerous because they got a lot of farm. I make it a point to say in chat who on their team is farmed up and who isn't. Hell at my low elo half the time there isn't even a jungle...on either team. Partly my fault for not knowing how to jungle worth a damn. | ||
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lIlIlIlIlIlI
Korea (South)3851 Posts
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Slaughter
United States20254 Posts
I think what I was trying to say about team fights is that people get tunnel vision and don't switch targets. They will lock onto one person and then throw everything to the wind to try to kill that person, even if that person retreats through his team so when they follow they get wtf raped. focusing like what was said is good...at times but you have to be flexible to switch targets when necessary. Which nobody does which is where my "they only focus the tanks" comment came from. I wasn't advocating people only go for 1 person and thats that. | ||
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spacemonkey4eve
United States267 Posts
On October 18 2011 02:12 r.Evo wrote: The worst possible scenario (from the AD's perspective) is that your own tanky dps charges their carries leaving you 1n1 with the tanky dps. Honestly asking here. Isn't the job of the tanky dps to keep the enemy carry away from the teamfights, so that your own ad carry can take care of the others? I thought it was the job of the support to silence/stun the enemy tanks from closing in onto your ad carry. I understand that this is all down to who is out of position. e.g. if it's a huge blob 5v5 then i as a tank would go straight for their carry. If not and their tank is overextended, then we'll try to take him out 5v1 without blowing any ults such as tibbers/demacian justice/etc | ||
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r.Evo
Germany14079 Posts
On October 18 2011 02:20 Slaughter wrote: Your forgetting that at low elo (and to some extent higher elos) people don't think that that. They merely try to focus down the 1st person who comes into range, usually the tank so the only person who cares when that tanky dps is screaming bloody murder in your carries face is the person getting targeted. Basically what im saying is that there is no team work or effort besides everyone just kinda attacking who they want. No one at low elo is thinking of proper positioning or senarios of "they have AP/top/jungle vs AD/AP/Jungle. No one differentiates who on their team is possibly the most dangerous because they got a lot of farm. I make it a point to say in chat who on their team is farmed up and who isn't. Hell at my low elo half the time there isn't even a jungle...on either team. Partly my fault for not knowing how to jungle worth a damn. Whoever thinks among those lines makes more solid judgements and therefor will win more games in the long run. Random example: I had a game a few days ago where I (being Caitlyn) outfarmed their AD by like 70 cs and was ahead 2 kills. HOWEVER there was this Jarvan in my face every single teamfight and kept me away. My team didn't give a fuck the first teamfight so they died a horribly death while I tried to kite him and they were like half a screen away fighting 4n4. Possible responses: A) Post on TL that my team sucked and I lost cause no one protected me. B) Find a way to deal with it. Since I already had some retarded statements in chat from my team ("LOL CAIT STOP HITTING JARV LOL") I assumed that reasoning won't work. What happened the next fight was our Alistar catches someone, rammus chases, Jarman flanks me once more. My team runs straight after our rammus and their Vayne and we obviously get stretched out again. I get Jarman to commit with ulti (stupid newb dat jarman), flash over him towards my team, E away from Jarv so he gets slowed and I'm in the middle of my team again AND SUDDENLY OH WONDER Jarv is in the same screen as Alistar and he starts keeping him away from me. Basicly when I'm the AD and don't get the protection I need, I usually start flanking myself, hoping that my team keeps pressuring them away from me or start to set up something that involves flash & walls. When I'm the tanky dps I try to isolate their carry with me, if he gets proper protection I try and bait them to keep hitting me while theres higher priority targets next to me (hint: shitting on their team earlier and being at 40% health is awesome for this). tl;dr: Properly understanding and playing your role will make you win games, no matter at which elo. | ||
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r.Evo
Germany14079 Posts
On October 18 2011 02:29 spacemonkey4eve wrote: Honestly asking here. Isn't the job of the tanky dps to keep the enemy carry away from the teamfights, so that your own ad carry can take care of the others? I thought it was the job of the support to silence/stun the enemy tanks from closing in onto your ad carry. I understand that this is all down to who is out of position. e.g. if it's a huge blob 5v5 then i as a tank would go straight for their carry. If not and their tank is overextended, then we'll try to take him out 5v1 without blowing any ults such as tibbers/demacian justice/etc I kinda misformulated that part you quoted. What I meant was that your Renekton/Warwick/RoA Brand are busy initiating and diving enemy carries while you and Sona are being zoned out of the fight by that Atmogs GP who moved towards you one second after WW and Renek charged on their carry and are now being CC'd to fuck by four people. That's like the worst possible scenario. =P Actually kinda every split where your main damage dealers (AP/AD/Assassins) are being zoned out for one reason or another is pretty damn horrible. Edit: On October 18 2011 02:24 Slaughter wrote: I actually have found that junglers can swing the game pretty hard early on. If your team gets a jungler who gets off several successful ganks while theirs doesn't or vice versa it sets up a game where one team is behind and that team usually isn't competent enough to come back or they rage too hard and stop trying because they are behind and they found their scapegoat (the jungler). I think what I was trying to say about team fights is that people get tunnel vision and don't switch targets. They will lock onto one person and then throw everything to the wind to try to kill that person, even if that person retreats through his team so when they follow they get wtf raped. focusing like what was said is good...at times but you have to be flexible to switch targets when necessary. Which nobody does which is where my "they only focus the tanks" comment came from. I wasn't advocating people only go for 1 person and thats that. I never really was in the elo range where teams had no jungle, so, dno about that part. =P But, yeah, switching is where a lot of people fail horribly at. Chase that 30% Renek/Cho/WW and get raped by carries all day, npnp. I remember having a game yesterday where I was Vayne and they had like Sion/Taric/Cait. Cait channels ult, Sion and Taric both flash right in front of me and I instaflashed back (SO FUCKING SCAWY). A second later I realized they both stunned our Cho+blew Cait ult on him. He was at like 25% after all. After that burst he was at 10%, swagged out and they all died, lololol. | ||
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mr_tolkien
France8631 Posts
On October 18 2011 02:39 r.Evo wrote: Possible responses: A) Post on TL that my team sucked and I lost cause no one protected me. B) Find a way to deal with it. C) Buy Talon, Xin, or Lee-Sin. Wonderful chars sub 1k6 Elo ! | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On October 18 2011 02:47 mr_tolkien wrote: C) Buy Talon, Xin, or Lee-Sin. Wonderful chars sub 1k6 Elo ! Still good above that Elo, except Xin. Talon has apparently been accepted as a ban-worthy champ. | ||
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
- The team that wins a teamfight is the team that does more damage relative to the other team (% wise). - CCing a target temporarily reduces their damage output - Killing a target reduces their damage output to zero - Hitting a bulky target doesn't deal much damage, but if the bulky target is being kited the entire time he deals no damage either. - All damage done to a target is technically worthless until the target is dead (their damage output remains the same up till the point where their HP is zero) | ||
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Koenig99
Canada904 Posts
On October 18 2011 02:51 Juicyfruit wrote: Here's some food for thoughts: - The team that wins a teamfight is the team that does more damage relative to the other team (% wise). - CCing a target temporarily reduces their damage output - Killing a target reduces their damage output to zero - Hitting a bulky target doesn't deal much damage, but if the bulky target is being kited the entire time he deals no damage either. - All damage done to a target is technically worthless until the target is dead (their damage output remains the same up till the point where their HP is zero) Not true. Sometimes if you burst a high priority target down to, let's say 20% hp, they may be too scared to engage due to fear of dying, so they just back out of the teamfight leaving you guys with a 5v4. | ||
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