EPT@RiotGames, from TL.net - Page 7
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necrosed
Brazil885 Posts
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On September 13 2011 03:21 necrosed wrote: Galio's Bulwark does not proc when you're hit by Cassiopeia's poisons. Is this a suggestion or a statement of fact? Cause last time I checked (a la watching the solomid 1v1 tourney) Galio's Bulwark does proc when you get hit by Cass's poisons. | ||
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DanceSC
United States751 Posts
On September 13 2011 03:17 Niton wrote: Why does healing/shielding yourself instead of another target as your first action not grant assists still? I tried to argue this with Zileas about a year ago, and the only answer he would give me is that "shielding yourself doesn't contribute enough" to grant an assist. Healing yourself is a natural thing that occurs all the time if you're the focus target - you shouldn't need additionally to tag everyone attacking you to make sure that you get an assist from it. ex. I'm playing Janna. I see Warwick coming to my lane at level 6, shield myself, and try to back out, but he catches me. Garen follows up with his silence, and I'm dead before I can get another ability off. During (and right after) this time, our jungler came in to force a 3v3 and 2 of them die - but I don't get assist gold for being the focus target. Really, it's just that this set of results for shielding focus targets is inconsistant as hell: Shield AD Carry: assist Shield Jungler : assist Shield Solotop: assist Shield Solomid: assist Shield (fixed)SUPPORT: no assist It's a dumb mechanic that punishes people for trying to keep the focus target alive (but only sometimes!), and it really needs to be looked at. I don't really know what the right answer is to add an assist flag without making it trivial, but my suggestion would be something involving damage taken granting assists. If you want an assist why don't you cast slow or the tornado? | ||
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Niton
United States2395 Posts
On September 13 2011 04:23 DanceSC wrote: If you want an assist why don't you cast slow or the tornado? Because sometimes you don't get 2 abilities off. It doesn't just happen on Janna either, it's something that's shared between all characters with a single target defensive-based action, with the exception of Alistar (whose defensive action breaks CC and applies an AoE aura). If your actions in a teamfight directly contribute to the fight positively, the game should treat all 5 members of your team the same when it comes to determining assists. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On September 13 2011 04:38 Niton wrote: Because sometimes you don't get 2 abilities off. It doesn't just happen on Janna either, it's something that's shared between all characters with a single target defensive-based action, with the exception of Alistar (whose defensive action breaks CC and applies an AoE aura). If your actions in a teamfight directly contribute to the fight positively, the game should treat all 5 members of your team the same when it comes to determining assists. well, if I'm a carry and I bait that WW to dive and then our mid and jungler fuck him up after he insta-gibbed me, I don't get an assist either, why should you get an assist just cause you shielded yourself? Note, in this scenario, if you're janna and you try to save me, you don't get an assist cause I didn't contribute to the kill. That's just how it goes bro, deal with it. EDIT: basically you either have to give everyone within a certain radius the assist, only people who do damage, or draw some arbitrary line in the sand about what counts as supporting a kill. There is no good way to actually give credit for assists programatically, so you just have to deal with whatever arbitrary line has been drawn. Personally, I think their line is about as good as you can do. | ||
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gtrsrs
United States9109 Posts
i think he just used a poor example like let's say i'm taric and i'm overextended and i get caught. i turn on my ult, stun warwick, and start running. their cait and annie both jump on me, i heal myself for 200 (plus 100 for the ult) and die. my team mops up the cait, annie, and warwick, who all have abilities on cooldowns. i should get 3 assists here, not 1, because i soaked up damage from all three enemies. damage that could have beeen used to kill my teammates. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On September 13 2011 05:02 gtrsrs wrote: nah, niton is right i think he just used a poor example like let's say i'm taric and i'm overextended and i get caught. i turn on my ult, stun warwick, and start running. their cait and annie both jump on me, i heal myself for 200 (plus 100 for the ult) and die. my team mops up the cait, annie, and warwick, who all have abilities on cooldowns. i should get 3 assists here, not 1, because i soaked up damage from all three enemies. damage that could have beeen used to kill my teammates. Think about how you're going to do this programatically. You're just going to hand out assists for taking damage, otherwise it's retarded. And that in and of itself is retarded, people'll get assists like a motherfucker just because they took damage. What about the scenario where you just happened to stand vaguely near a tank with sunfire cape who died? What's the logical difference that your assist system is going to work off of? I get what you guys are saying, but short of incorporating a human scorekeeper who judges who deserves an assist to every kill in the game, you're not going to get a system that does what you want it to do. | ||
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
On September 13 2011 04:41 Mogwai wrote: well, if I'm a carry and I bait that WW to dive and then our mid and jungler fuck him up after he insta-gibbed me, I don't get an assist either, why should you get an assist just cause you shielded yourself? Note, in this scenario, if you're janna and you try to save me, you don't get an assist cause I didn't contribute to the kill. That's just how it goes bro, deal with it. EDIT: basically you either have to give everyone within a certain radius the assist, only people who do damage, or draw some arbitrary line in the sand about what counts as supporting a kill. There is no good way to actually give credit for assists programatically, so you just have to deal with whatever arbitrary line has been drawn. Personally, I think their line is about as good as you can do. simple and fair solution: if you are being attacked by the target and it dies after, then you get an assist. reasoning: you tanking their damage contributed to the killing of the target. If you want to be fair then it shouldnt matter how you tank it, wheter its shields, resistances, heals, regeneration etc. are only different ways to tank more damage. Obviously the more effort someone puts into killing another the better is the outcome for his opponents. That said, fairness is not allways the best design. Maybe this would lead to too much overall gold? I would say this is better but mb I dont see the big picture. | ||
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gtrsrs
United States9109 Posts
On September 13 2011 05:06 Mogwai wrote: Think about how you're going to do this programatically. You're just going to hand out assists for taking damage, otherwise it's retarded. And that in and of itself is retarded, people'll get assists like a motherfucker just because they took damage. What about the scenario where you just happened to stand vaguely near a tank with sunfire cape who died? What's the logical difference that your assist system is going to work off of? I get what you guys are saying, but short of incorporating a human scorekeeper who judges who deserves an assist to every kill in the game, you're not going to get a system that does what you want it to do. well it's not the DAMAGE part that you should get the assist for, it's the damage MITIGATION part. had you not healed yourself, you would have died faster, and more damage could have killed your teammates. but healing your teammates at that point in time was not an option, as you were the one being focused that's the logic. but i also see your side in that it certainly does seem hard to implement. well, riot has a bunch of money, maybe they can start hiring people to referee every game! | ||
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Niton
United States2395 Posts
On September 13 2011 04:41 Mogwai wrote: well, if I'm a carry and I bait that WW to dive and then our mid and jungler fuck him up after he insta-gibbed me, I don't get an assist either, why should you get an assist just cause you shielded yourself? Note, in this scenario, if you're janna and you try to save me, you don't get an assist cause I didn't contribute to the kill. That's just how it goes bro, deal with it. In that scenario, you wouldn't get an assist on and characters you didn't hit specifically because you didn't do anything. Janna shielding a target is doing something, and no matter which target she shields, if it results in a kill the result should be the same every time. It's a bizarre set of rules that shielding/healing someone is only sometimes worth an assist. I think Clickrush's solution is probably the ideal one if a change is ever made: simple and fair solution: if you are being attacked by the target and it dies after, then you get an assist. It doesn't actually let you get bullshit random assists any more than walking up and trying to last-hit someone to get assist gold does, and it doesn't penalize you for being focused and wanting to protect yourself. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On September 13 2011 05:09 gtrsrs wrote: well it's not the DAMAGE part that you should get the assist for, it's the damage MITIGATION part. had you not healed yourself, you would have died faster, and more damage could have killed your teammates. but healing your teammates at that point in time was not an option, as you were the one being focused Everyone mitigates damage via natural armor and regen if nothing else. This is a dumb argument. Besides, what more did a Taric with his heal and ult up that healed himself from 200-500 to bait the enemy back than the Malphite with 500 HP to begin with. The answer, simply, is nothing or that the enemy was stupider and didn't know Taric could heal himself. This is not a good grounds by which to award assists programatically. Again, it's an arbitrary line in the sand and there are always going to be situations that it fails to properly award people, but there's no way around dumb scenarios where someone is getting gypped, so you just have to accept that that's going to happen. On September 13 2011 05:12 Niton wrote: In that scenario, you wouldn't get an assist on and characters you didn't hit specifically because you didn't do anything. Janna shielding a target is doing something, and no matter which target she shields, if it results in a kill the result should be the same every time. It's a bizarre set of rules that shielding/healing someone is only sometimes worth an assist. I think Clickrush's solution is probably the ideal one if a change is ever made: It doesn't actually let you get bullshit random assists any more than walking up and trying to last-hit someone to get assist gold does, and it doesn't penalize you for being focused and wanting to protect yourself. again, it will do stupid shit. Annie dropped a bear on me. Oh hey, it's AoE, she didn't target me, now I don't get an assist, but if it was malz ulting me, I would have, stupid system. The shielding/healing/buffing system has a clear set of rules. If your teammate that was shielded/buffed/healed dealt damage in the kill, you get an assist. I mean, there are always going to be stupid scenarios, there is no way around it and stop pretending like you have a good solution because if there was, it would've been implemented by now, trust me. | ||
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Niton
United States2395 Posts
On September 13 2011 05:14 Mogwai wrote: This is a dumb argument. Besides, what more did a Taric with his heal and ult up that healed himself from 200-500 to bait the enemy back than the Malphite with 500 HP to begin with. He used his own abilities to affect the teamfight. Think about it from another perspective - in what way is it the correct play to heal someone who is not eating focus fire? Rewarding suboptimal play just to avoid your edge case of 'standing near sunfire' (which is as bullshit as walking up and hitting a guy at 5% to KILLSECURE and getting rewarded) is not a good design goal. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On September 13 2011 05:19 Niton wrote: He used his own abilities to affect the teamfight. Think about it from another perspective - in what way is it the correct play to heal someone who is not eating focus fire? Rewarding suboptimal play just to avoid your edge case of 'standing near sunfire' (which is as bullshit as walking up and hitting a guy at 5% to KILLSECURE and getting rewarded) is not a good design goal. Say it's trist with 300 HP then. And instead of healing her self, she jumps away from a skillshot and dodged 200 extra damage. Again, same net effect, but now she used a mobility skill to impact a fight instead of a heal. Look, I get what you're saying, it's just stupid because there's no good system for rewarding it. | ||
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
On September 13 2011 05:14 Mogwai wrote: Everyone mitigates damage via natural armor and regen if nothing else. This is a dumb argument. Besides, what more did a Taric with his heal and ult up that healed himself from 200-500 to bait the enemy back than the Malphite with 500 HP to begin with. The answer, simply, is nothing or that the enemy was stupider and didn't know Taric could heal himself. This is not a good grounds by which to award assists programatically. Again, it's an arbitrary line in the sand and there are always going to be situations that it fails to properly award people, but there's no way around dumb scenarios where someone is getting gypped, so you just have to accept that that's going to happen. again, it will do stupid shit. Annie dropped a bear on me. Oh hey, it's AoE, she didn't target me, now I don't get an assist, but if it was malz ulting me, I would have, stupid system. The shielding/healing/buffing system has a clear set of rules. If your teammate that was shielded/buffed/healed dealt damage in the kill, you get an assist. I mean, there are always going to be stupid scenarios, there is no way around it and stop pretending like you have a good solution because if there was, it would've been implemented by now, trust me. thats not what I said. I said if I tank damage from a target that gets killed I get an assist. Targeting doesnt matter then and it doesnt matter how I tank it. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
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crate
United States2474 Posts
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Niton
United States2395 Posts
On September 13 2011 05:28 Mogwai wrote: Ezreal shoots his ult to clear a wave, hits you as you get back to fountain, then gets ganked and died. Gratz friend, you earned it! Legendary Lux shoots a last laser as she's dying, jungler flashes into the laser's path 2000 range away, woot, free 233 gold! All systems either gyp someone or give up stupid assists that shouldn't be assists. The current system is honest-to-god dumb enough about this that I would even entertain the idea of just making the assist system proximity-based. If nobody's on the assist table for an enemy champion, it's almost always in your team's best interest for you to take the kill from someone who needs gold more, because you're giving up 70% gold to give them 30%. There's so many oddities and dumb things about it, it makes me imagine what a LoL2 (recoded to not be an eldritch horror) could offer that Riot's codebase simply doesn't allow (Pet control, item use/maybe smartcasting, camera turning, REPLAYS ON LESS THAN A 2 YEAR TIMETABLE).. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On September 13 2011 05:37 Niton wrote: The current system is honest-to-god dumb enough about this that I would even entertain the idea of just making the assist system proximity-based. If nobody's on the assist table for an enemy champion, it's almost always in your team's best interest for you to take the kill from someone who needs gold more, because you're giving up 70% gold to give them 30%. There's so many oddities and dumb things about it, it makes me imagine what a LoL2 (recoded to not be an eldritch horror) could offer that Riot's codebase simply doesn't allow (Pet control, item use/maybe smartcasting, camera turning, REPLAYS ON LESS THAN A 2 YEAR TIMETABLE).. seriously, what the fuck are you talking about? how the fuck does DotA do assists? how do you think DotA 2 will do assists? Doing a "good" assist system that actually gives appropriate rewards for intangible efforts has literally nothing to do with LoL's engine and everything to do with it just generally being a difficult problem for a computer to solve because computers don't have a sense of judgement. | ||
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Niton
United States2395 Posts
On September 13 2011 05:55 Mogwai wrote: seriously, what the fuck are you talking about? how the fuck does DotA do assists? how do you think DotA 2 will do assists? Doing a "good" assist system that actually gives appropriate rewards for intangible efforts has literally nothing to do with LoL's engine and everything to do with it just generally being a difficult problem for a computer to solve because computers don't have a sense of judgement. It's not the same direct argument. At least half (if not way more) of what's ACTUALLY wrong with LoL, though? Engine limitations. I really wonder exactly what they can and can't do without rewriting half the game, and I don't think being able to write a 'different' system is off the table in an actual redo. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
Pet control was a choice and continues to be a choice. LoL isn't a hacked RTS, it's its own game, deal with it. They made a concious decision to not have unit selection be a part of the game and I actually doubt that they regret that decision 1 single bit. I don't understand your point about item use/smartcasting and I don't understand why you care about camera turning and I hoenstly don't even know what else falls under "etc," it just sounds like you're bitching for the sake of bitching. | ||
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