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Haemonculus
United States6980 Posts
On September 01 2011 23:51 Southlight wrote: I been saying that for ages _-_ I always BEAT her as Malz, it makes no sense to me why people have trouble when I can stomp her with fookin Malz. At lower levels people's movement is really predictable. Oriana can deal solid damage from really far away, so a lot of people get scared I guess. | ||
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Eppa!
Sweden4641 Posts
On September 01 2011 23:51 Southlight wrote: I been saying that for ages _-_ I always BEAT her as Malz, it makes no sense to me why people have trouble when I can stomp her with fookin Malz. Haven't played lol in like 2 weeks, but I remember that she is a really mediocre laner. I am just scared of her strong lategame. | ||
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Southlight
United States11761 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.mariowiki.com/images/thumb/7/70/ChompArt.jpg/640px-ChompArt.jpg) or else the ball flies back and she's pretty fucked for another while. It's annoying when she gets blue and constant pushes but really, most AP heroes can do that anyways. | ||
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nyxnyxnyx
Indonesia2978 Posts
i'm nice and i don't bite ps: i speak chinese too | ||
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
I can see people like leblanc, kassadin, and panth messing her up pretty hard though, since they all have teleport/jump spells that let them dodge the linear nature of all Orianna's damage. Leblanc especially, that fucker is so annoying in lane whenever she gets a QW off to proc a silence and you can't do anything about it. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
1. going to lose burst trades 2. going to miss last hits when trying to farm at 1000 range I won't even go into the fact that people should know how to limit 1000 range farming by now considering that ezreal was the most popular solo mid for like 6 months back in the day. I mean, we're not talking about GERGAS or CHOGETH here, ori cannot just 1 shot waves the way those guys can, nor does she heal like they do. There are some people you cannot deny with their stupid long range, I just don't think Ori is one of them. | ||
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Brees
Marshall Islands3404 Posts
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
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Zenithal
United States142 Posts
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Southlight
United States11761 Posts
On September 02 2011 00:40 HyperionDreamer wrote: She can't 1 shot waves for the first few levels, but after her first shopping trip when she'll either grab cata or a dring and sorc boots, you bet she'll be one shotting magic creeps, especially if she chooses to max W first. I'm not saying her laning is invincible, just that she can be on even or better terms with almost every other solo mid hero. Even at solo mid if she one-shots only the back creep she'll allow herself to be zoned. Unlike heroes like Morgana who can push at will, make it to the creep, and then extract (Black Shield), Orianna invests so heavily to pull off her combo, and still takes a tremendous amount of damage in doing so, that she cannot actually maintain CS against a decent player from afar. For instance with Malz I simply zone her. If she attempts to circumvent me and go for the creep, she will 1) take a full combo to the face because she cannot shield herself 2) get 3 creep kills while I can just turn around and unload on the creep without even letting it hit tower, thereby getting 2x the creep kills 3) still be behind on health and mana. ... and Malz doesn't even have a reliable or high-damage combo to punish Ori every time she goes for creep. On a hero like Pantheon, if Ori attempts to hit creep, then it's asking to get full combo'd by Panth, without her own shield. Repeatedly. | ||
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
On September 02 2011 00:43 Zenithal wrote: Is it just me, or is Lee Sin (classified as an assassin), tougher than some of the "bruiser" type champions? Like, when playing as him, I never really feel threatened when I rush into battle, and it doesn't seem like other players do either. It seems a bit much considering his burst from Q that you can get so early on. That's one of the reasons LS is being first picked/banned in a lot of high level games right now, plus that his ult is great for position control in teamfights and he can basically jungle forever. On September 02 2011 00:44 Southlight wrote: Even at solo mid if she one-shots only the back creep she'll allow herself to be zoned. Unlike heroes like Morgana who can push at will, make it to the creep, and then extract (Black Shield), Orianna invests so heavily to pull off her combo, and still takes a tremendous amount of damage in doing so, that she cannot actually maintain CS against a decent player from afar. For instance with Malz I simply zone her. If she attempts to circumvent me and go for the creep, she will 1) take a full combo to the face because she cannot shield herself 2) get 3 creep kills while I can just turn around and unload on the creep without even letting it hit tower, thereby getting 2x the creep kills 3) still be behind on health and mana. ... and Malz doesn't even have a reliable or high-damage combo to punish Ori every time she goes for creep. On a hero like Pantheon, if Ori attempts to hit creep, then it's asking to get full combo'd by Panth, without her own shield. Repeatedly. Malzahar/Pantheon are exceptions, since they are both heroes who have incredibly strong lane presence and zoning capability (also malz pushes like a boss with E). I did say "almost every other solo mid hero," not "every single hero in the game." Against malz, since Orianna's skills outrange Malz with the exception of his Q, she can attempt to zone him quite hard by using her superior range and mobility if she opens boots 1, which is generally done on pretty much any mid hero. However, if you can predict where she's going to move the ball then you can be completely safe from her damage output, which is why good players can still win lanes against her even when she mathematically outclasses them in categories like damage and range. | ||
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Southlight
United States11761 Posts
Incidentally I think Ori trashes Kass because she just needs to autoattack. Shield + Auto > Kass. | ||
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Tooplark
United States3977 Posts
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Zenithal
United States142 Posts
That's one of the reasons LS is being first picked/banned in a lot of high level games right now, plus that his ult is great for position control in teamfights and he can basically jungle forever. So... it's just kind of something that people accept? I mean, I don't mean to call imba, but he seems waaay to useful and well rounded for his only "hard counter" to be the ban screen. | ||
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r.Evo
Germany14079 Posts
If you allow her to: -Pin you to the tower. -Push lane at will and go b whenever she wants, you're fucked. If you're pinned to your own tower it's so fucking easy to hit Q all day (similar to Karthus Q and shit like that). Keep the lane in the middle so you have more space to dodge her crap. If you allow her to go b when she wants you don't abuse her pretty delicate mana management early on. People let her push early levels, eat some harass, she can b at lvl 4 and come back with dring+boots. From then on she's getting harder to deal with. | ||
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r.Evo
Germany14079 Posts
On September 02 2011 01:00 Southlight wrote: Good Annies also trash Orianna. Not sure about Brand because I've never played him. There really are not that many heroes that like going solo mid these days. Incidentally I think Ori trashes Kass because she just needs to autoattack. Shield + Auto > Kass. Orianna vs Brand is a completely retarded matchup, it's kinda like Kassa vs Malz. You basicly play musical chairs around the creepwaves, with Orianna trying to hit QW, brand trying to hit EW and both parties running around in circles tittydancing around each other to dodge combos. Then someone runs out of mana, get's pushed, the other person can go back and win lane. I hate matchups like that, srsly. (Also I keep insisting that Annie > Orianna if the Annie knows what she's doing. Just most Annies are scared, get pushed and then get punished for it.) Oriannas laning isn't as invincible as people make it out to be. | ||
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
On September 02 2011 01:00 Southlight wrote: Good Annies also trash Orianna. Not sure about Brand because I've never played him. There really are not that many heroes that like going solo mid these days. Incidentally I think Ori trashes Kass because she just needs to autoattack. Shield + Auto > Kass. Really? I've always considered Ori a huge hard counter to Annie since you can avoid burst trades at will with your superior range and damage capability at said range. The problem I have when laning against Annie is that when she gets her stun up, you basically get zoned because you can't push forward to CS with autoattacks. Bad annies waste their stun on AoE damaging creeps and let you re-gain lane control, but I played against an annie last week who just kept her stun up non stop and zoned me out real hard. Still, even when you're getting zoned you can use Q to harass and force annie back, but it's a large mana investment for something that can be dodged. Brand basically zones everyone for the first 4 levels, but after I get my catalyst as Ori he's much less scary because of the health/mana regeneration up on leveling. Kassadin has passive MR though, so the bonus damage from AA's will be reduced quite a bit, and post-6 he can abuse riftwalk to dodge your damaging skills. I think pre-6 he'll lose since riftwalk is unavailable, and his silence has a projectile speed so you can land QW before the actual silence takes effect. I can't say that I've played against many Kass at my ELO, but I've won many lanes against Brands an Annies just on being a fundamentally better player. I talk a lot from my experience, but at such a low ELO I don't think it says much about the actual balance of the champions - you know a lot more than I do. On September 02 2011 01:02 Zenithal wrote: So... it's just kind of something that people accept? I mean, I don't mean to call imba, but he seems waaay to useful and well rounded for his only "hard counter" to be the ban screen. I don't think he's imbalanced, just very well rounded and can fit into basically any team composition without sacrificing too much. What I'd be interested in seeing is them reducing the range on his Q and W by maybe 40, and seeing how that affected his mobility. Right now with two dashes he can basically run in and out of fights, being everywhere at once. I'd like to see if he'd be any less effective with slightly less mobility. | ||
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r.Evo
Germany14079 Posts
On September 02 2011 01:08 HyperionDreamer wrote: Really? I've always considered Ori a huge hard counter to Annie since you can avoid burst trades at will with your superior range and damage capability at said range. The problem I have when laning against Annie is that when she gets her stun up, you basically get zoned because you can't push forward to CS with autoattacks. Bad annies waste their stun on AoE damaging creeps and let you re-gain lane control, but I played against an annie last week who just kept her stun up non stop and zoned me out real hard. Still, even when you're getting zoned you can use Q to harass and force annie back, but it's a large mana investment for something that can be dodged. Brand basically zones everyone for the first 4 levels, but after I get my catalyst as Ori he's much less scary because of the health/mana regeneration up on leveling. Kassadin has passive MR though, so the bonus damage from AA's will be reduced quite a bit, and post-6 he can abuse riftwalk to dodge your damaging skills. I think pre-6 he'll lose since riftwalk is unavailable, and his silence has a projectile speed so you can land QW before the actual silence takes effect. I can't say that I've played against many Kass at my ELO, but I've won many lanes against Brands an Annies just on being a fundamentally better player. I talk a lot from my experience, but at such a low ELO I don't think it says much about the actual balance of the champions - you know a lot more than I do. As I said above, Annie > Orianna if she knows what she's doing. Also Ryze >> Orianna because of a similar reasoning. EVERY SINGLE TIME Orianna misses a Q (and against boots opening she will miss quite a lot) she's open to get buttraped by point and click skillshots (Annie Q/Ryze QWE etc.). The second the Annie/Ryze can start dodging 2-3 Qs in a row Orianna is basicly zoned out and pretty fucked. Brand vs Orianna is pretty even, HOWEVER if Orianna opts for Catalyst and Brand opts for Drings -> Deathcap the Orianna is in trouble for early Dragonfights. She just can't keep up with his damage output. (The other way around it's not that bad for brand since his damage output is just stupid even without a lot of AP =P) | ||
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
On September 02 2011 01:13 r.Evo wrote: As I said above, Annie > Orianna if she knows what she's doing. Also Ryze >> Orianna because of a similar reasoning. EVERY SINGLE TIME Orianna misses a Q (and against boots opening she will miss quite a lot) she's open to get buttraped by point and click skillshots (Annie Q/Ryze QWE etc.). This is pretty true, however you can never really deny Orianna fully. Sure, you can get ahead in CS, but she'll still farm a reasonable amount with her 1000 range Q. The biggest thing I think you have to do against Orianna is never let her get a huge creep lead.... (I think someone said this above my post, but I'm writing it here in case they didn't.) If she gets a big stack and is basically free pushing your tower, you can't abuse your superior burst trades cause you'll take a trillion damage from all the creeps. She (ori) also abuses bad positioning so incredibly hard that she can still change the tide of an entire game even if she's a bit underfarmed - I lost a ranked game when Orianna was first released where my team was attempting nash up by 15+ kills, and she put her ball in the tiny bush that stands alone in the river while someone else on her team baited. Our whole team bit and she hit a full QRW combo on literally all 5 of our team members. By the time we came out of the stun, we had already lost the teamfight. IMO that alone still makes her ban material. On September 02 2011 01:13 r.Evo wrote: Brand vs Orianna is pretty even, HOWEVER if Orianna opts for Catalyst and Brand opts for Drings -> Deathcap the Orianna is in trouble for early Dragonfights. She just can't keep up with his damage output. (The other way around it's not that bad for brand since his damage output is just stupid even without a lot of AP =P) Yeah, opening catalyst sacrifices early damage for a lot of in-lane sustain... However, I would make the argument that if Orianna is opening cata, she'll have a lot more mana to push her lane with, giving her a map control advantage for any dragon attempts. I remember Shushei talking about this on stream, about how opening with sustain items lets you push the mid lane, and especially as purple team you can gain a dragon control advantage, since you can run down along the path that leads to the river without your enemy immediately knowing what's going on. He wasn't talking about specifically Brand vs. Orianna, but I think the idea still applies. edit: damn, when am i going to get any other icon than the drone? i thought 500 posts was the first milestone, l0l0l. ^_^ | ||
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Southlight
United States11761 Posts
Also good Annies farm just fine with AA, which is why they tend to make that hero quite a bitch :[ | ||
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