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On August 31 2011 05:17 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 05:16 Yttrasil wrote:On August 31 2011 05:12 TheYango wrote:On August 31 2011 05:09 Yttrasil wrote:
True and not true, deny you can in a sense that he can't lasthit nor often stay mid, 3 people can generally dive to kill while two people can't, mapcontrol is maintained through wards from your mid when you venture into their jungle to either kill their jungler or steal his jungle. You will ofc also venture into your own to kill wraits and wolves whenever you can.
Again not saying it's always better but I have a hard time to see it always fail, you can have smite on one in the mid if you want to venture also you gain a strong control of dragon if played correctly. Ultimately it would be nice if people dared to try out new stuff that's thought through and not just stick to the old ways because they are the old ways as too many people are. No, see, 2v1 should give you complete control over their ability to cs anyway, and having a 3rd person there doesn't make that any better. The jungler can be there whenever a dive is possible. There is zero reason that he has to be there all the time as a laner, when he can be performing the conventional duties of a jungler. Edited my post before and I know for a fact 2v1 does not always have the ability to deny the single person even if they play it horribly well as long as you got the right character for the job. 2v1 can't dive though while generally 3v1 can in a much larger fashion, one kill mid also gives you the whole tower. Why do you need to dive? You just stand in front of the creeps and combo them if they ever venture into XP range. They stay level 1 regardless of who they are. The only way they get XP is if you LET them by pushing the lane. And for the 3rd time, you can't dive 100% of the time. You jungler can come mid when a dive is possible or when you can take tower. He doesn't need to be there when a dive isn't possible.
Well that is maybe true for first and often the second wave, after that it's anyones game and if you time correctly and have some healing you will get yourself some experience before that as well. Not saying it's very easy but with that logic 2 top should be optimal without a jungle as you can infinately keep their top lvl 1 while two of your guys get experience. Thus your logic is flawed.
Mid can be helped, but you can also dive into their jungle deny him and get wraits and so on if they defend 2 mid, everything is not set into stone with you having to be 3 mid constantly, you can go gank top bot with teleport if you have it kill their jungler as soon as he leaves or dive tower at the right moment etc. Again not easy and maybe it doesn't always work, it's just a suggestion and I would love to hear some more theorycrafting. I can see it work anyhow, especially with a ziliean when come to think of it with constant bombs and harass with them. Great idea, think I'll try that out with some friends tbh.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 31 2011 05:29 Yttrasil wrote:
Well that is maybe true for first and often the second wave, after that it's anyones game and if you time correctly and have some healing you will get yourself some experience before that as well. Not saying it's very easy but with that logic 2 top should be optimal without a jungle as you can infinately keep their top lvl 1 while two of your guys get experience. Thus your logic is flawed.
It's true for however many waves the duo can play correctly and not take minion aggro. No last-hitting or minion aggro = the lane doesn't move toward the solo's tower.
2v1 top can full-deny the solo, but they have to get 0 cs while doing it. This was discussed months ago on TL. The reason it's arguably still better to have a jungler is because 2 0-cs-but-leveled top laners beating a no-levels-no-cs top laner does not necessarily outweigh the jungler getting free reign on buffs/dragon (and hence having the levels of a solo laner), and both mid and bottom lanes having zero gank threat. You win top lane super hard but you lose both mid and bot AND their jungler has 100% control.
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Ok here is some theory crafting..
I feel like mid is the worst possible place on the map to run a tri-lane. It's too short compared to the other lanes, so it's much harder to deny exp and creeps, as the creeps reach tower sooner. Sure you can dive with your third man/jungler once in awhile, but they are still slowly going to gain an advantage.
And here's the kicker, their support, and jungler, can come support their mid, Why do you need a support bottom for the long range ad carry who is battling some melee beefy guy, just play safe and youll be fine, especially since jungle support turn it straight back to 2v1.
Sadly, the buffs in this game, and the way experience works, especially for the jungler, mean's tri lane just isn't as viable as it is in Hon, Dota. You need that jungler to control buffs, and such. The tri lane carry might be farmed , and their guy might be denied a bit, but you have to worry about their entire team out leveling you, your bottom lane is probably being denied some exp/creeps as well, as it's 2v1, or if they choose the 1v1, and send the support mid.
I could see something like Tri-Lane top(one semi roamer, jungler), 1 mid, and then someone that can be really beefy early, 21 defense masteries, cloth + 5 pot , innate tankiness bottom. But then you could be giving up jungle buffs, and dragons quite easily.
Tri-Lane bot doesn't seem like it would work very well vs AD/Support cause they can play really really passive still get creeps and exp, and again your giving up too much map control... though at least you have everyone there if they try to dragon, one sitting in river bush can really just stop any kind of jungle interaction as well.
CLG did something recently where they sent the AD/Support top, and Cho Goth bottom 1v2, and they made the other teams lanes switch around, we are seeing more of this lately, and its really interesting how the other teams respond to lanes being moved around. I really like how the game is moving this way, though doubt were going to see much in public ques.. They actually didnt give up dragon by having 2 top, because they Forced their top to switch, so he wasnt being denied.
The fact is that the Dota/Hon maps are really awesome cause of the way you can gank through your jungle, pull creeps to control your lane, ward the creep pull, the weaker towers, the way you don't have buffs, just runes that the support/carry can control(dont need a jungler to control these things) ,no dragon so you don't need a dedicated jungler to handle it, the way experience works, or at least seems to work. I feel like this game made the possibility of 3-1-1, or 2-2-1, or 2-1-2, really kind of ... inferior to anything else.
Maybe the future jungle change will change this, but the only way to gank being through the river, or through the opponent's jungle, and strength of towers will probably still be there sadly  .
Alot of these lane set ups assume someone is roaming around, picking up jungle exp, and ganking once in awhile, but you lose too many levels doing the roaming thing, that's why I have never liked roamers in LoL, the only one i've ever gotten behind was ALI, and with this Ult nerf, I hate him now as well. If your level 10 while everyone else is 18 your useless.
(Note, not trying to change this into Hon/Dota vs LoL, I play way more LoL, I just like the map layout for those games much more, it makes for imo, much more variety, for instance in Dota 2 championships, there were lots of 2 mid, 2 top, 1 bottom, and matchups like that, just depending on comps etc.., yet there was also some junglers mixed in)
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On August 31 2011 05:34 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 05:29 Yttrasil wrote:
Well that is maybe true for first and often the second wave, after that it's anyones game and if you time correctly and have some healing you will get yourself some experience before that as well. Not saying it's very easy but with that logic 2 top should be optimal without a jungle as you can infinately keep their top lvl 1 while two of your guys get experience. Thus your logic is flawed.
It's true for however many waves the duo can play correctly and not take minion aggro. No last-hitting or minion aggro = the lane doesn't move toward the solo's tower. 2v1 top can full-deny the solo, but they have to get 0 cs while doing it. This was discussed months ago on TL. The reason it's arguably still better to have a jungler is because 2 0-cs-but-leveled top laners beating a no-levels-no-cs top laner does not necessarily outweigh the jungler getting free reign on buffs/dragon (and hence having the levels of a solo laner), and both mid and bottom lanes having zero gank threat. You win top lane super hard but you lose both mid and bot AND their jungler has 100% control.
So now you argue against yourself then proving that 2v1 with constant deny is not viable for a variety of reasons. So what was your point again, you just proved me right?
Still I think it should be possible to get some experience if you play cait or morde correctly, against ie taric vayne or such a setup.
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United States47024 Posts
There's also the fact that in DotA/HoN, having 3 people in a lane actually allows you to deny harder 2 people, given that the 1v2/1v3 has methods of attempting to pull the lane back toward himself (blocking creeps, certain abilities that kill allied creeps, etc.). A 3v1 in LoL doesn't accomplish a harder deny than a 2v1 because neither side has the ability to pull the lane back toward themselves.
Roamers allowed a 1v2 bottom because the duo can't zone that hard without putting themselves at risk of a 3v2 gank.
On August 31 2011 05:44 Yttrasil wrote:
So now you argue against yourself then proving that 2v1 with constant deny is not viable for a variety of reasons. So what was your point again, you just proved me right?
Still I think it should be possible to get some experience if you play cait or morde correctly, against ie taric vayne or such a setup.
My argument is twofold:
1) A 3v1 is strictly worse than 2v1 + jungle because laners in LoL don't have mechanisms to pull the lane toward themselves such as denying or creep blocking.
2) A 2v1 full deny is arguably not viable for a couple of the aforementioned reasons. (Doesn't really matter. Even if a 2v1 is viable, that still doesn't give you a reason to play 3v1 over 2v1+jungle.)
Because a 3v1 is worse than a 2v1, and a 2v1 is not viable, a 3v1 is not viable.
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2v1 is probably viable tbh.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 31 2011 05:49 Mogwai wrote:
2v1 is probably viable tbh.
That still doesn't change the fact that 3v1 isn't accomplishing anything a 2v1 isn't capable of, while still freeing up someone to go do jungle camps.
If a 2v1 can full-deny, then why does the 3rd person need to be there?
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Or you can put pantheon top and secure him a level 1 red buff. Does the job of 2 people for the price of 1 huehuehue.
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xin's a better target for level 1 red. xin's a better laner than anyone's willing to acknowledge.
but anyway, 3v1 can towerdive and kill someone at level 1, which would probably be harder for a 2v1. but anyway, you're just theorycrafting, all this is theorycrafting, you guys should just do what I did with heal comp and go out there and stomp nubs with whatever whacky shit you think might work and have fun with it instead of saying stuff that's based on assumptions that no one has proved.
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On August 31 2011 05:46 TheYango wrote:There's also the fact that in DotA/HoN, having 3 people in a lane actually allows you to deny harder 2 people, given that the 1v2/1v3 has methods of attempting to pull the lane back toward himself (blocking creeps, certain abilities that kill allied creeps, etc.). A 3v1 in LoL doesn't accomplish a harder deny than a 2v1 because neither side has the ability to pull the lane back toward themselves. Roamers allowed a 1v2 bottom because the duo can't zone that hard without putting themselves at risk of a 3v2 gank. Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 05:44 Yttrasil wrote:
So now you argue against yourself then proving that 2v1 with constant deny is not viable for a variety of reasons. So what was your point again, you just proved me right?
Still I think it should be possible to get some experience if you play cait or morde correctly, against ie taric vayne or such a setup. My argument is twofold: 1) A 3v1 is strictly worse than 2v1 + jungle because laners in LoL don't have mechanisms to pull the lane toward themselves such as denying or creep blocking. 2) A 2v1 full deny is arguably not viable for a couple of the aforementioned reasons. Because a 3v1 is worse than a 2v1, and a 2v1 is not viable, a 3v1 is not viable.
It is not strictly a 3v1 as you are flexible with it and staying constantly 3v1 would be indeed in 99% of the cases stupid and just because 2v1 isn't viable doesn't mean a coordinated and thought out 3v1 isn't viable. This is where your logic is fallable, just because you cannot break a wall down with two small siege machines doesn't mean a third would give the same results.
Otherwise, insteresting post that one above was some interesting theory there, I never played Dota or Hon for the matter so that is not where I got the idea from. It still feels as if LOL is quite a new game and the development of matchups and theory has still so much more to give in the future that it will be exciting what will unfold. I suppose it is especially hard as it is a teamgame where you have to be in sync with your mates to first coordinate what everyone knows and secondly to break the barriers of the current state of the game and then coordinate and try new things out in sync. Will of course take time but I have a hard time believing the way things are now is the optimal way to play vs a KNOWN setup which everyone constantly uses.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 31 2011 05:58 Yttrasil wrote:
It is not strictly a 3v1 as you are flexible with it and staying constantly 3v1 would be indeed in 99% of the cases stupid and just because 2v1 isn't viable doesn't mean a coordinated and thought out 3v1 isn't viable. This is where your logic is fallable, just because you cannot break a wall down with two small siege machines doesn't mean a third would give the same results.
So if that 3rd person is not staying in the lane, and is doing jungle camps when he's not needed, then it's just a matter of semantics on whether you consider him a 3rd laner (and calling the lane 3v1) or a jungler (and calling the lane 2v1+jungle). zzz
It still begs the question of why you'd do this mid, when if the other team responds by doing the same thing to your bot lane solo, they'd do it better because the lane is longer and they can zone harder.
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On August 31 2011 05:56 Mogwai wrote:
xin's a better target for level 1 red. xin's a better laner than anyone's willing to acknowledge.
but anyway, 3v1 can towerdive and kill someone at level 1, which would probably be harder for a 2v1. but anyway, you're just theorycrafting, all this is theorycrafting, you guys should just do what I did with heal comp and go out there and stomp nubs with whatever whacky shit you think might work and have fun with it instead of saying stuff that's based on assumptions that no one has proved.
Is he? I thought everyone knew that Xin's laning is MONSTROUS and that the reason why Riot keeps nerfing Xin even though he is rarely played at higher Elo is the fact that he owns low Elo games where everyone wanders alone
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so, ocelote got laid with kelly during the gamescom?
mind blown... lol
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On August 31 2011 05:56 Mogwai wrote:
xin's a better target for level 1 red. xin's a better laner than anyone's willing to acknowledge.
but anyway, 3v1 can towerdive and kill someone at level 1, which would probably be harder for a 2v1. but anyway, you're just theorycrafting, all this is theorycrafting, you guys should just do what I did with heal comp and go out there and stomp nubs with whatever whacky shit you think might work and have fun with it instead of saying stuff that's based on assumptions that no one has proved.
Or you could just give it to Udyr...
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On August 31 2011 06:09 emucxg wrote:
so, ocelote got laid with kelly during the gamescom?
mind blown... lol
Inb4 huge shitstorm? Link to this drama >.>
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Technically, Anivia should be able to pull a creep wave by using her wall to delay the minions at her tower. Effectiveness is unknown, just speculation.
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no way, oce and kelly lolz.
these spanish people got some mad woman skills.
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Guys when is the next server downtime, tomorrow? I am shitting myself as I am nearly silver!
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EPT
