EPTSent from my shitty laptop on campus wifi*
[Patch 1.0.0.124: Talon] General Discussion - Page 76
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HAL9OOO
United States176 Posts
Sent from my shitty laptop on campus wifi* | ||
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Yttrasil
Sweden651 Posts
Have also been thinking about having a 1 top 1 bot 1 jungler/mid and 2 more mid and have 1 be there constantly with the other 2 going counterjungling and such. Tried Talon+X bot with either leona or rumble or so, no way to lose that lane vs anyone as long as you gank lvl 3+ and talon starts cloth+pots. Why is everyone always against trying something new and cool, is the game really that set into stone or are people just afraid of experimenting, are there any other setups that do work? | ||
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JackDino
Gabon6219 Posts
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HAL9OOO
United States176 Posts
On August 31 2011 04:23 Yttrasil wrote: So, I was just wondering what are other cool/fun/functional setup of teams that goes against the current meta of 1 top 1 mid 2 bot 1 jungle, been experimenting with some 3 mid 1 top 1 bot with warding of jungle to gank etc and it works pretty well, one start of at wolves other 2 wraits, in their base or own or both. Have also been thinking about having a 1 top 1 bot 1 jungler/mid and 2 more mid and have 1 be there constantly with the other 2 going counterjungling and such. Tried Talon+X bot with either leona or rumble or so, no way to lose that lane vs anyone as long as you gank lvl 3+ and talon starts cloth+pots. Why is everyone always against trying something new and cool, is the game really that set into stone or are people just afraid of experimenting, are there any other setups that do work? I don't think two mid works very well, especially in the current meta of AP carry mid. They will outlevel you mid and then have an easier time bursting you down with level advantage. I have found though in normals not having a jungler seems to actually make your win percentage a lot bigger as long as you have paths to your major buffs warded. A lot of solo laners have a hard time vs. two people and there have been plenty of times I am like well they don't have a jungler fuck. Then there is the flip side, if you have a strong laner, send them bot to 1v2 and have your two guys solo the one guy up top. Most people can guess where every champ is going to lane, so if you switch it up it puts a stick in their gears and they like well I don't know if we should waste xp switching lanes whatever lets roll with it. I also feel that if you are blue side solo lane should be top lane, but if you are purple side solo lane should be bot lane. You have only 1 real place to be ganked from in both of those setups, but if you are solo top as purple you have like two places to be ganked from assuming normal, not overextending. Plus people ganking from top bush have to walk around that little jut in the wall while if your purple you can run right at them. In other words purple side sucks except for baron stealing, which you will have to do since your side sucks so much other team is facerolling you. Fuck purple side. | ||
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Southlight
United States11767 Posts
On August 31 2011 04:23 HAL9OOO wrote: Fuck Irene, 1518 need one more win to get gold and power co. says my power will be out till Saturday teh fuck? Sent from my shitty laptop on campus wifi* Glad to get confirmation that CP has power. Gonna be heading over there in a bit to get to my class, was worried I'd drive over for naught \o/ | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
His jungle should be decent fast due to his passive. It's kinda like gp passive except stronger so his jungle speed should be real solid. Only problem is that he's really squishy so defensive specs are a must with cloth 5pot start into wriggles. Jungle twitch would have pretty sick ganks due to invis + his pretty strong slow + expunge doing a crapload of dmg early to mid game. I wanna try it out but I don't have twitch  | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On August 31 2011 04:23 Yttrasil wrote: So, I was just wondering what are other cool/fun/functional setup of teams that goes against the current meta of 1 top 1 mid 2 bot 1 jungle, been experimenting with some 3 mid 1 top 1 bot with warding of jungle to gank etc and it works pretty well, one start of at wolves other 2 wraits, in their base or own or both. Duo/trilane mid can't zone as effectively as bot or top due to the lack of brush and the generally shorter lane. If you have 2v1 mid, and 1v2 bottom, the enemy duo bottom should definitely be capable of denying your solo way harder than you can deny their mid solo. Having 3 champions mid will probably deny their mid harder than the 2v1 bot, but even that's questionable because of how much more abusively their bottom lane can play when they have zero risk of being ganked. | ||
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MoonBear
Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On August 31 2011 04:23 Yttrasil wrote: So, I was just wondering what are other cool/fun/functional setup of teams that goes against the current meta of 1 top 1 mid 2 bot 1 jungle, been experimenting with some 3 mid 1 top 1 bot with warding of jungle to gank etc and it works pretty well, one start of at wolves other 2 wraits, in their base or own or both. Have also been thinking about having a 1 top 1 bot 1 jungler/mid and 2 more mid and have 1 be there constantly with the other 2 going counterjungling and such. Tried Talon+X bot with either leona or rumble or so, no way to lose that lane vs anyone as long as you gank lvl 3+ and talon starts cloth+pots. Why is everyone always against trying something new and cool, is the game really that set into stone or are people just afraid of experimenting, are there any other setups that do work? If loads of people go mid, the person mid can just towerhug and you probably can't kill them. Then they gain levels and farm much more rapidly than your team. Then the jungler+over-lvled mid come and wreck the three people mid who are under lvl-ed. It's the same principle where if you're 1v2 top lane, unless the other 2 are really strict about not pushing the lane and have don't have amazing pokes, you're still going to be relatively even with them in exp and farm by just tower hugging. In LoL, there's no real "hard carry", except with (maybe) Jax, Yi, Olaf, Nasus, Veigar. This means that levels matter as much as farm. While shared lanes distribute the exp 55% each (which means you have a net 10% bonus) that still means the other person will ding 6 while you're still level 4, maybe 5. You also lose pressure on other lanes. With 3 people in lane I believe it divides experience 36.7% each. That means the 1v3 person can ding 6 when everyone else is still lvl 3. That's atrocious. The jungler can just power level to 6 and then terrorise mid. I can see this working with a Zilean, the Utility Tree and Exp Quints. But that's a lot of experimentation. Is it worth it? Maybe. EDIT: Btw, just for reference (these are cumulative values btw): Lvl 1: 0 exp Lvl 2: 280 exp Lvl 3: 670 exp Lvl 4: 1170 exp Lvl 5: 1780 exp Lvl 6: 2500 exp | ||
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HAL9OOO
United States176 Posts
On August 31 2011 04:30 Southlight wrote: Glad to get confirmation that CP has power. Gonna be heading over there in a bit to get to my class, was worried I'd drive over for naught \o/ Oh man a fellow umcper? Should meet up or do that college LoL tourney ^o^. Whats your major? Computer science here. | ||
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Yttrasil
Sweden651 Posts
Anyhow, the point is there must be some not too hard to execute strategy that at least generally will beat the current setup, question is what it is and I would love to hear some interesting input and not people calling it constant trolling (those familiar with poker should understand the concept of meta and how to beat what seems to be optimal strategies by changing the nature one plays as you know how the others play)  | ||
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HAL9OOO
United States176 Posts
On August 31 2011 04:37 Ryuu314 wrote: Just a crazy idea but has anyone ever tried jungle twitch? His jungle should be decent fast due to his passive. It's kinda like gp passive except stronger so his jungle speed should be real solid. Only problem is that he's really squishy so defensive specs are a must with cloth 5pot start into wriggles. Jungle twitch would have pretty sick ganks due to invis + his pretty strong slow + expunge doing a crapload of dmg early to mid game. I wanna try it out but I don't have twitch Twitch so squish. I have done jungle twitch before starting at red. If you can get a good pull you might even do it fast, and if you have 2 xp quints i believe you hit level 2 and can go gank immediately with a stealth/expunge. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On August 31 2011 04:23 Yttrasil wrote: So, I was just wondering what are other cool/fun/functional setup of teams that goes against the current meta of 1 top 1 mid 2 bot 1 jungle, been experimenting with some 3 mid 1 top 1 bot with warding of jungle to gank etc and it works pretty well, one start of at wolves other 2 wraits, in their base or own or both. Have also been thinking about having a 1 top 1 bot 1 jungler/mid and 2 more mid and have 1 be there constantly with the other 2 going counterjungling and such. Tried Talon+X bot with either leona or rumble or so, no way to lose that lane vs anyone as long as you gank lvl 3+ and talon starts cloth+pots. Why is everyone always against trying something new and cool, is the game really that set into stone or are people just afraid of experimenting, are there any other setups that do work? Everyone experiments, but the vast majority do so in small, measured amounts. Your experiments are radical departures from the norm. When you take things to that extreme you're bound to encounter resistance. This is especially true because most radical experimenters are really, really bad at it. The scientific method taught in grade school is Observe -> Research -> Hypothesize -> Test -> Repeat/Conclude, but radical experimenters often practice Idea -> Excitement -> Test -> Half-Observe -> Confused Hypothesis -> Erroneous Conclusion -> Tell Everyone. When you meet these people in games they're usually losing the game for their team, so people shun them. | ||
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STS17
United States1817 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On August 31 2011 04:48 Yttrasil wrote: Hmm, I do of course understand the principle behind it all and all of you are good at pointing it out. But one must also consider what benefits it has, one is usually able to dive 3v1 and survive even quite early, you can deny their jungler immensely if you do coordinated attacks into his jungle and bot if played correct 1v2 shouldn't be a problem vs any support - ad carry setup. I don't say it's optimal in all situations but I'm pretty sure that there are innovative ways to disrupt the normal setup of 1 top 1 mid 2 bot 1 jungler if you plan it correctly as you know almost exactly what to expect, almost every game. I'm not great at the game although I'm not bad either tbh, with the 3 mid setup you ofc have to be able to deny their jungle or they will snowball and you lose exp. Add some teleport, possible wards in their jungle and you can save and gank freely as well. Exp quints is a good idea and start indeed, a zilian maybe but the first tower should fall before level 6 at least if played correctly, other ideas is alistar to prevent hugging. What? Plenty of AD carry + Support setups are capable of an insane amount of offensive pressure (e.g. Taric/Vayne or Taric/Cait). How is trilane mid not strictly worse than duo mid + jungle? Trilane can't deny mid harder than duo mid because there is no deny mechanic, and a solo can't fight 1v2 for cs any better than he can fight 1v3 (i.e. if they play properly, how much CS he can get is 100% dependent on how much they lasthit and how hard they push the lane--which doesn't change in a 1v3 scenario compared to 1v2). May as well at least have a jungler to at least maintain map control. And then you get back to the situation where I described before where your bot lane will get zoned harder than their mid lane because of the lane architecture. | ||
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Yttrasil
Sweden651 Posts
On August 31 2011 05:02 TheYango wrote: How is trilane mid not strictly worse than duo mid + jungle? Trilane can't deny mid harder than duo mid because there is no deny mechanic, and a solo can't fight 1v2 for cs any better than he can fight 1v3. May as well at least have a jungler to at least maintain map control. True and not true, deny you can in a sense that he can't lasthit nor often stay mid, 3 people can generally dive to kill while two people can't, mapcontrol is maintained through wards from your mid when you venture into their jungle to either kill their jungler or steal his jungle. You will ofc also venture into your own to kill wraits and wolves whenever you can. Again not saying it's always better but I have a hard time to see it always fail, you can have smite on one in the mid if you want to venture also you gain a strong control of dragon if played correctly. Ultimately it would be nice if people dared to try out new stuff that's thought through and not just stick to the old ways because they are the old ways as too many people are. Edit for your edit: Indeed there are but there are also characters able to withstand duo lanes insanely good and get farm while at it, usually ap mid is not one of them though. Random examples from my mind just guessing is, Yorick, Irelia, Garen, Mordekaiser, Akali, Gragas and generally a safely played ad carry. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On August 31 2011 05:09 Yttrasil wrote: True and not true, deny you can in a sense that he can't lasthit nor often stay mid, 3 people can generally dive to kill while two people can't, mapcontrol is maintained through wards from your mid when you venture into their jungle to either kill their jungler or steal his jungle. You will ofc also venture into your own to kill wraits and wolves whenever you can. Again not saying it's always better but I have a hard time to see it always fail, you can have smite on one in the mid if you want to venture also you gain a strong control of dragon if played correctly. Ultimately it would be nice if people dared to try out new stuff that's thought through and not just stick to the old ways because they are the old ways as too many people are. No, see, 2v1 should give you complete control over their ability to cs anyway. If you have some shit like Taric/Brand mid, the other guy's going to sit at his tower level 1 anyway. You don't need a 3rd person in lane to make that happen. The jungler can be there whenever a dive is possible. There is zero reason that he has to be there all the time as a laner, when he can be performing the conventional duties of a jungler. | ||
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Yttrasil
Sweden651 Posts
On August 31 2011 05:12 TheYango wrote: No, see, 2v1 should give you complete control over their ability to cs anyway, and having a 3rd person there doesn't make that any better. The jungler can be there whenever a dive is possible. There is zero reason that he has to be there all the time as a laner, when he can be performing the conventional duties of a jungler. Edited my post before and I know for a fact 2v1 does not always have the ability to deny the single person even if they play it horribly well as long as you got the right character for the job. 2v1 can't dive though while generally 3v1 can in a much larger fashion, one kill mid also gives you the whole tower. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On August 31 2011 05:16 Yttrasil wrote: Edited my post before and I know for a fact 2v1 does not always have the ability to deny the single person even if they play it horribly well as long as you got the right character for the job. 2v1 can't dive though while generally 3v1 can in a much larger fashion, one kill mid also gives you the whole tower. Why do you need to dive? You just stand in front of the creeps and combo them if they ever venture into XP range. They stay level 1 regardless of who they are. The only way they get XP is if you LET them by pushing the lane. And for the 3rd time, you can't dive 100% of the time. You jungler can come mid when a dive is possible or when you can take tower. He doesn't need to be there when a dive isn't possible. | ||
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
Frankly I don't see why it has to be this problematic. Instead of cheesing with so many wasted bodies, just have mid be ezreal or some shit with fort elixir and secure the red buff on both sides for him = denies just as good without wasting manpower. | ||
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JackDino
Gabon6219 Posts
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