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Swain's solid not because of his W. In fact arguably W is his least useful skill. People just get it to farm faster. Otherwise you can leave it at 1.
His ult makes him chew up melee heroes, especially when multiple melee heroes converge on him (or in his area) at once. Together with W holding people (that you can cast around you, if you're not stupid and don't waste it) and snaring people off with lazerbird! means you can stall death. And the longer you stall death the more damage you do and the more...
... hp you regain.
It's a bit like Karthus, who when farmed chews up melee heroes (fun, underappreciated fact), especially when a team is too heavily loaded on melee heroes. Demolishes them. Karthus is somewhat more played because his laning is a lot stronger, he's not quite as weak against opposing AP heroes, and it's a bit easier to get fed/farmed on him due to MAPWIDEKS.
You can argue that Swain is no longer a sexy pick because the meta has largely shifted from mass bruisers. That's fine. But your reasoning for him being bad is pretty weak.
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United States37500 Posts
Well, I was talking about laning phase really. EQ is just stupid silly against Melee. W is only a one point wonder like Uta said.
Gap closer? What champion are you thinking of that can get close enough to Swain while eating a full laserbird? Garen? Udyr? Singed? lawlz, these are the premiere brusiers from the past/current patches. None of them can touch Swain. Jarvan perhaps but I haven't seen a Jarvan in the past patch. Irelia would be able to stand toe to toe. Jax would lose to attrition, even before level 6.
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your "MAPWIDEKS" actually makes me wonder as a Karthus player. When I play him and I see low HP ppl but friendly champs are in the area I tend to not use my R and I try not to KS. Sometimes however, If my ally fucks up and the enemy champ gets away then Boom my R is too late regen lets them live.
Basically im asking how much of a KS person is everyone when they play him? I prefer not to KS but I also have this policy that "there is no KS when the whole goal is to kill ppl as quickly as possible" So in solo Q especially so you say FUCK you MY KILL to your allies or do you back off knowing that a kill could be lost if your ally blows it?
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Just finished a long drive and I did some thinking, so I wanted to post an idea here to see what some of the higher level players thought of it:
Dragon spawns at 2:30 with 3250 health. Which should be killable by a level 1 team with smite and a healer.
If you had a superior level 1 team composition to your opponents, would it be feasible to (this assumes starting on purple side) wraithjack -> take red -> take small golems -> do dragon when he spawns as an entire team?
Given the changes to soraka's heal, the armor buff there would really help whoever is tanking dragon so your team should take fairly minimal damage while doing all of this, and it also really messes with any jungler that starts at blue (just being in their jungle that early could force them to start there in the first place if they can't engage your team favorably.
I'm curious if the advantages of such an early dragon and messing up the other team's jungle outweigh the disadvantages of letting their lanes get a few free waves of farming in? Could the threat of dragon be enough to force a level 1-2 fight, which you should have an advantage in if their top is still up there?
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KS = kill secured
No harm in ensuring that your opponent actually dies
Plus karthus gets infinitely better when farmed so if your teammates complain say "it's okay I'm the carry"
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On August 31 2011 02:53 Slaughter wrote:
your "MAPWIDEKS" actually makes me wonder as a Karthus player. When I play him and I see low HP ppl but friendly champs are in the area I tend to not use my R and I try not to KS. Sometimes however, If my ally fucks up and the enemy champ gets away then Boom my R is too late regen lets them live.
Basically im asking how much of a KS person is everyone when they play him? I prefer not to KS but I also have this policy that "there is no KS when the whole goal is to kill ppl as quickly as possible" So in solo Q especially so you say FUCK you MY KILL to your allies or do you back off knowing that a kill could be lost if your ally blows it?
Don't ever think about KS, only think about "will using this ability help us win". What is even worse is when someone calls KS when my arrow hits that I shot across map 15 seconds ago as ashe -_-
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During the laning phase use his ult every time you can secure a kill. Remember, a living enemy is infinitely worse than a dead one, and if your teammate could have killed him without your help then he would have been dead before you started to channel the ult. Once the big bad teamfights start, your ult is an initiation tool so you should blow it before the fight begins, then send in the beefier guys before regen can counter the damage you've done / BV comes off cooldown
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On August 31 2011 02:53 NeoIllusions wrote:
Well, I was talking about laning phase really. EQ is just stupid silly against Melee. W is only a one point wonder like Uta said.
Gap closer? What champion are you thinking of that can get close enough to Swain while eating a full laserbird? Garen? Udyr? Singed? lawlz, these are the premiere brusiers from the past/current patches. None of them can touch Swain. Jarvan perhaps but I haven't seen a Jarvan in the past patch. Irelia would be able to stand toe to toe. Jax would lose to attrition, even before level 6.
Everyone who can jump on swain loses the damage trade with him by doing so. QE rapes the ever loving shit out of Irelia, Jarman, Jax, Pantheon, and Xin (only one I'm uncomfy saying that about is Renek because he can back out), because they eat the brunt end of your burst and have to tank creeps while slowed and then snared to get out of it while you get to dodge the continuation of their combo via your CC.
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Well like I said I don't believe KS can happen in a game where the goal is to kill the other team asap before you die. Its not like in team fights your going to pause so someone can get last hit in lol. I hate that people never call it out though. I tell them constantly then they will randomly call it out once when the CD is on then flame me for not using it :[
I rarely hear people call KS in games though.
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On August 31 2011 03:03 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 02:53 NeoIllusions wrote:
Well, I was talking about laning phase really. EQ is just stupid silly against Melee. W is only a one point wonder like Uta said.
Gap closer? What champion are you thinking of that can get close enough to Swain while eating a full laserbird? Garen? Udyr? Singed? lawlz, these are the premiere brusiers from the past/current patches. None of them can touch Swain. Jarvan perhaps but I haven't seen a Jarvan in the past patch. Irelia would be able to stand toe to toe. Jax would lose to attrition, even before level 6. Everyone who can jump on swain loses the damage trade with him by doing so. QE rapes the ever loving shit out of Irelia, Jarman, Jax, Pantheon, and Xin (only one I'm uncomfy saying that about is Renek because he can back out), because they eat the brunt end of your burst and have to tank creeps while slowed and then snared to get out of it while you get to dodge the continuation of their combo via your CC.
True dat....just played a game as Panth with a swain who got Fed in top lane solo. Jesus he would melt me and everyone else basically lol.
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lol, I'm the person who cares least about KS to be honest, I don't even like heroes that go for kills ;p So that's mostly a joke. Karth ult is fantastic for setting up ganks though (start channel as gank begins = higher chance of netting kill) so my point was that it's noticeably easier to start snowballing as Karth (not that you always do, was just saying it's easier to, than Swain). But yes, like other people said, most people do not care who gets the kill, as long as the kill happens. There're some blatant ones (like Soraka infuse on a melee guy who's obviously given up) but especially Karth' one is usually tough to AIM to KS with anyways :>
lol @ Neo, I don't even mind the laning thing as I feel every hero as ups and downs with laning, I was deffo more talking about how he's a complete bitch to deal with as a melee hero. I hate hate running against the Karths and Swains and Morgs as tanks because it's like UGGGGH, and Swain moreso than any else because you actually feel pained with him canceling out your damage >_<
@STS rushing Drag/Baron against suspecting teams is always risky because you invest so heavily in securing the area (rush 5 to dragon = they send 2, force you to be careful, other 3 still get 100% exp, as an example), especially when your team would struggle to take down said objective. It's a whole different ballpark from when you've got one person who can solo drag with ease and 4 people just bodyguarding.
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On August 31 2011 02:55 STS17 wrote:
Just finished a long drive and I did some thinking, so I wanted to post an idea here to see what some of the higher level players thought of it:
Dragon spawns at 2:30 with 3250 health. Which should be killable by a level 1 team with smite and a healer.
If you had a superior level 1 team composition to your opponents, would it be feasible to (this assumes starting on purple side) wraithjack -> take red -> take small golems -> do dragon when he spawns as an entire team?
Given the changes to soraka's heal, the armor buff there would really help whoever is tanking dragon so your team should take fairly minimal damage while doing all of this, and it also really messes with any jungler that starts at blue (just being in their jungle that early could force them to start there in the first place if they can't engage your team favorably.
I'm curious if the advantages of such an early dragon and messing up the other team's jungle outweigh the disadvantages of letting their lanes get a few free waves of farming in? Could the threat of dragon be enough to force a level 1-2 fight, which you should have an advantage in if their top is still up there?
this can only be answered with a very specific team comp and enemy team comp in mind
first of all dragon damage is a lot more than you think at such a low level. you'd NEED someone with innately high armor to be tanking it (ala jarvan) and then yes you'd need a healer (ala soraka) so there's 2 picks you've already locked up in your comp.
secondly your comp would have to have a strong enough level 1 with the other 3 picks that the enemy team would be discouraged from invading or even defending their wraiths. that means if they have ashe, karthus, blitz, cho, alistar, etc etc, you can't do this
third your comp would have to be sustainable enough that you could go to lane slightly injured and a level behind and not get zoned. i don't think dragon gives enough EXP to get 5 people to level 2 so your mid and top would definitely be a level behind at the minimum. so you'd need to be running champs that can get HP back easily (trundle, cho, irelia, etc) OR choose to run teleport so you could back, heal, and TP to lane.
fourth your opponents would have to NOT realize what was going on and attempt to stop it. can you imagine you've got 5 people clumped around dragon alternating who takes the damage, and then with 1000 HP left, a level 2 brand walks over from mid and presses WE and wipes out your team? obviously you'd be less afraid of a ww mid but some champs could really fuck you up in the middle of that
lastly your jungle would have to be okay with being gimped exp-wise. enemy jungler would 100% take some of your jungle if you took his wraiths, golems, and red as a team. so can your jungler start his route 55 seconds later than normal and not die to blue? after tanking dragon? will he hit 6 by the time the opposing jungler hits 8 or 9? not certain
basically it's an all-in strat that would require tons of factors swinging in your favor to be profitable, imo
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United States47024 Posts
On August 31 2011 02:55 STS17 wrote:
Just finished a long drive and I did some thinking, so I wanted to post an idea here to see what some of the higher level players thought of it:
Dragon spawns at 2:30 with 3250 health. Which should be killable by a level 1 team with smite and a healer.
If you had a superior level 1 team composition to your opponents, would it be feasible to (this assumes starting on purple side) wraithjack -> take red -> take small golems -> do dragon when he spawns as an entire team?
Given the changes to soraka's heal, the armor buff there would really help whoever is tanking dragon so your team should take fairly minimal damage while doing all of this, and it also really messes with any jungler that starts at blue (just being in their jungle that early could force them to start there in the first place if they can't engage your team favorably.
I'm curious if the advantages of such an early dragon and messing up the other team's jungle outweigh the disadvantages of letting their lanes get a few free waves of farming in? Could the threat of dragon be enough to force a level 1-2 fight, which you should have an advantage in if their top is still up there?
Mid and bot will get at least 2 waves of creeps shoved to tower. Top will likewise lose 3 waves, and your jungler will lose jungle time. At ~120g a wave, that's worth more than Dragon, considering the greater Xp value of the creeps.
If they don't know you're doing it and don't push the lane hard enough, your laners can get back to lane in time to pick up the creeps. But if they know you're cheesing Dragon that early, they shouldn't neef to try and stop you to come out ahead.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
its a horrible idea, they changed it a long time ago so that people wouldnt level one dragon anymore. it is now pointless.
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On August 31 2011 02:39 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 00:11 spinesheath wrote:On August 30 2011 23:57 0123456789 wrote:On August 30 2011 23:55 spinesheath wrote:On August 30 2011 23:44 0123456789 wrote:On August 30 2011 23:38 spinesheath wrote:
So I just tried this movement prediction thing... and turned it off immediately. "choppy" describes it quite well. Not using user movement prediction makes your champion so shitty. You can't make subtle movements and your champion moves so weirdly. It's like click and they move, but you can't click click click click and champions immediately respond and accurately. You have no idea how weirdly my champion moves WITH movement prediction. For me, it moves exactly how I want my champion to move. Turning it off makes my champion to move weird, like they're fat and heavy. You don't play at 200+ ms lag. At least that delay is predictable, I can develop a feeling for it and play accordingly. With UMP it seems like I would get a mix of laggy situations (enemies trying to hit me) and situations where the game somehow compensates for the delay (me trying to hit enemies). Plus my character moves really choppily. In fact it feels as if I lose 100 movespeed due to all the choppiness when I am not running in a straight line. This option seems to do some really weird things. Didn't get around to test it out myself, but will totally do so once I'm done with Deus Ex. =D MOONBEAR CAN YOU HELP US TELL US WHAT IT REALLY DOES? I SUMMON THEE, DEMON!
I turned it on. I notice no difference with it on and without it :O
Finally got to gold :D Now I can stop playing for a week and not have to worry about stupid shit like cait traps with hitboxes the size fucking 2 teemo shrooms and undodgeable kog ultis.
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An ally kills an enemy 1v1. Result: X kill gold for your team.
You KS that ally as Karth from across the map. Result: X kill + Y assist gold for your team.
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On August 31 2011 03:28 spinesheath wrote:
An ally kills an enemy 1v1. Result: X kill gold for your team.
You KS that ally as Karth from across the map. Result: X kill + Y assist gold for your team.
YEAH BUT NOW THE KILL IS ON YOU AND NOT YOUR TEAMMATE WHICH MEANS YOUR TEAMMATE CANT CARRY YOU AS HARD CAUSE IN SOLO Q EVERYONE BUT HIM IS A SCRUB.
---> Killsteals are bad.
(<3)
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Idea for potentially legitimate troll build: AP/attack speed Miss Fortune. Probably lich bane, deathcap, malady, nashors, hextech gunblade and sorc shoes. The passive on W, E and R all scale on AP, So could still carry games.
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Rushing dragon is insanely bad. All you do is:
- Sacrifice two whole minion waves (worth 738g and 1674 exp) for 975g and 265 exp.
- Either sacrifice a third wave (another 399g and 937 exp) or enter the lane at a huge disadvantage due to low health levels.
- Lose even more CS either way because your enemies are all higher levels and can press that advantage.
- Open yourself up to giving first blood and dragon 3 minutes into the game while missing a dragon's worth of creep waves.
This literally can't be profitable unless you're trolling with multiple Smites and/or Nunu.
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United States37500 Posts
Fuck, I miss level 1 dragon fights during the beta. It was instant team level 2 if you got it, so was worth the early lane exp that you missed.
Now, it's not even worth it. Unless you run something gimmicky like ward top brush. See enemy jungler? Instant 4 man collapse on Drag. But even then, early game 3 + dragon aggro v 4 isn't all that favorable for 4 either.
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EPT
