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On August 24 2011 23:14 daemir wrote:
Oriana is really fun to play and in my opinion very rewarding once you get good with the ball. It's also nice to be able to support your team in others ways than simply killing someone out of the way (although she can certainly do that too :D)
She is also really really hard to lane against and isn't like completely dead set to a single item build either. For instance, I was laning against an Akali two nights ago, Akali gets lvl 6 and does then what Akali usually do post 6, but everytime she jumped to QR shroud-harass me, I instantly self shielded, W at my feet and then Q outwards while autoattacking and in most exchanges like that, I came out top, so she had to retreat.
When she finally got me was my own really dumb mistake, my ball was out at max range, jungler moves in, akali leaps, I move towards turret and ulti a split second too early before my ball returned. Either way Akali walked away from the ensuing fight with 15 hp ^^ Would have got a double kill if I wasn't too trigger happy.
I was really surprised they didn't nerf her hard this patch.
I keep raking up wins around 1500-1600 elo by leaving orianna unbanned when I'm cap and enemy team has firstpick.
Let em have Orianna, pick Ryze, dodge Q/W all day and target-skillshot her in the face.
Works pretty well 'cause so many people pick Orianna cause "OMG SHES SO OP YO" without having any clue about her.
(Just as easy as with Ryze you can counter her with Annie btw, same deal. Boots+MS quints help.)
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On August 24 2011 23:12 Insanious wrote:
Anyone else look at Talon and say to themselves "I sure as hell hope he can jungle?"
I mean look at the guy, he is built to gank:
1) Passive that gives bonus damage when he has red buff (as red slows)
2) A DoT that stacks with redbuff, so you can kill them even if they get into safety sometimes
3) A skill that teleports you to your prey
4) A damage buff on target you are ganking
5) An AoE slow so the opponent cannot run
6) The jump silences, means no flash
Not to mention, if he always has red buff means he doesn't need to buy frozen mallet and can then use that gold for more damage or for some defense.
You get him jungling and popping out at lvl 4 with red and I don't think most champions will be getting away, especially if what ever lane talon jumps into has a cc of their own.
Here's hoping that a cloth armor + 5 pot or vamp scepter opening can work on this guy in the jungle, because with Xin's new nerfs... I want another jungle that ganks just as hard.
Just my thoughts.
To be able to jungle on a champion requires 2 things
Rule 1: you take smite
Rule 2: you follow rule 1.
Also, I've given up trying to take anything from the details that are given in Patch Notes. Some things that I've thought would be huge nerfs have done nothing, and other things that are so tiny are just make heroes retarded.
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On August 24 2011 23:19 NeoIllusions wrote:
Jarman is a pretty bad jungler imoimo.
Better question is why isn't he top lane anymore.
To be fair I stopped jungling him after the last nerf on his Q, but before that he was pretty solid imo. Solid first clear and solid ganks.
However, being "solid" does not mean "good". "Good" would mean he could counterjungle reliably and sustain better, both categories where Jarman fails horribly. I imagine Talon to be similar. Dno, we'll see. :>
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With proper help from your team just about every champ can jungle. The question is how good can he gank. No use putting a bad ganker in the jungle.
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On August 24 2011 23:07 phyvo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 21:27 spinesheath wrote:
All the other high sustain champs are getting nerfed too. So what if Nidalee doesn't have a godmode laning phase? Those new Spears and the recent buff(bugfix) to Traps make her really strong mid/lategame. Other high sustain champs also getting nerfed isn't relevant to Nidalee early because Nidalee never went bottom to lane against them. But more to the point, I don't really see spears as something that can make up for having reduced laning presence. Reduced laning presence = reduced farm = reduced damage on spears.
Udyr just got a nerf in the same patch. Jax got one. GP has been nerfed.
Just to name a few of the champs that have been common top laners in the last weeks.
On August 24 2011 23:20 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 23:14 daemir wrote:
Oriana is really fun to play and in my opinion very rewarding once you get good with the ball. It's also nice to be able to support your team in others ways than simply killing someone out of the way (although she can certainly do that too :D)
She is also really really hard to lane against and isn't like completely dead set to a single item build either. For instance, I was laning against an Akali two nights ago, Akali gets lvl 6 and does then what Akali usually do post 6, but everytime she jumped to QR shroud-harass me, I instantly self shielded, W at my feet and then Q outwards while autoattacking and in most exchanges like that, I came out top, so she had to retreat.
When she finally got me was my own really dumb mistake, my ball was out at max range, jungler moves in, akali leaps, I move towards turret and ulti a split second too early before my ball returned. Either way Akali walked away from the ensuing fight with 15 hp ^^ Would have got a double kill if I wasn't too trigger happy.
I was really surprised they didn't nerf her hard this patch. I keep raking up wins around 1500-1600 elo by leaving orianna unbanned when I'm cap and enemy team has firstpick. Let em have Orianna, pick Ryze, dodge Q/W all day and target-skillshot her in the face. Works pretty well 'cause so many people pick Orianna cause "OMG SHES SO OP YO" without having any clue about her. (Just as easy as with Ryze you can counter her with Annie btw, same deal. Boots+MS quints help.)
It's not a skillshot when it's targeted.
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On August 24 2011 23:20 tobi9999 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 23:12 Insanious wrote:
Anyone else look at Talon and say to themselves "I sure as hell hope he can jungle?"
I mean look at the guy, he is built to gank:
1) Passive that gives bonus damage when he has red buff (as red slows)
2) A DoT that stacks with redbuff, so you can kill them even if they get into safety sometimes
3) A skill that teleports you to your prey
4) A damage buff on target you are ganking
5) An AoE slow so the opponent cannot run
6) The jump silences, means no flash
Not to mention, if he always has red buff means he doesn't need to buy frozen mallet and can then use that gold for more damage or for some defense.
You get him jungling and popping out at lvl 4 with red and I don't think most champions will be getting away, especially if what ever lane talon jumps into has a cc of their own.
Here's hoping that a cloth armor + 5 pot or vamp scepter opening can work on this guy in the jungle, because with Xin's new nerfs... I want another jungle that ganks just as hard.
Just my thoughts. To be able to jungle on a champion requires 2 things Rule 1: you take smite Rule 2: you follow rule 1. Also, I've given up trying to take anything from the details that are given in Patch Notes. Some things that I've thought would be huge nerfs have done nothing, and other things that are so tiny are just make heroes retarded.
Ok let me rephrase that... I hope he is a good jungler instead of a novelty jungler.
I'm just hoping that with his AoE slow + passive he can clear jungle quick enough and take a small enough amount of damage that he can pull off a lvl 4 double buff gank reliably.
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Just watched the talon champ spotlight. This guy looks like the next designated pubstomper, for one reason. EFFING STEALTH..... This looks like an even more annoying type of stealth than the surprise buttseks kind that Eve and Twitch have, it's more like a perpetual trollface in all teamfights since you can get in, start wailing on carries, and when the team comes to kill you since you're overextended just ulti and get out for free while doing huge damage when it expires.
trollface.jpg
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On August 24 2011 23:20 tobi9999 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 23:12 Insanious wrote:
Anyone else look at Talon and say to themselves "I sure as hell hope he can jungle?"
I mean look at the guy, he is built to gank:
1) Passive that gives bonus damage when he has red buff (as red slows)
2) A DoT that stacks with redbuff, so you can kill them even if they get into safety sometimes
3) A skill that teleports you to your prey
4) A damage buff on target you are ganking
5) An AoE slow so the opponent cannot run
6) The jump silences, means no flash
Not to mention, if he always has red buff means he doesn't need to buy frozen mallet and can then use that gold for more damage or for some defense.
You get him jungling and popping out at lvl 4 with red and I don't think most champions will be getting away, especially if what ever lane talon jumps into has a cc of their own.
Here's hoping that a cloth armor + 5 pot or vamp scepter opening can work on this guy in the jungle, because with Xin's new nerfs... I want another jungle that ganks just as hard.
Just my thoughts. To be able to jungle on a champion requires 2 things Rule 1: you take smite Rule 2: you follow rule 1. Also, I've given up trying to take anything from the details that are given in Patch Notes. Some things that I've thought would be huge nerfs have done nothing, and other things that are so tiny are just make heroes retarded.
Able to jungle != Solid jungle != Good jungle.
SURE you can jungle Soraka or Tristana. Will they be good? No.
For a jungle you want:
-Solid first clear time (4:30ish absolute max)
-Self-sustain is a huge bonus (Trundle/Noc/WW/Udyr)
-AoE damage helps a lot (Noc/Amu/Rammus)
-Strong CC for ganks
-The ability to counterjungle without fucking up your own route/timing too much. (That's actually where most junglers fail imho. Or I fail to get their drift.)
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United States37500 Posts
On August 24 2011 23:19 zalz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 23:07 phyvo wrote:On August 24 2011 21:27 spinesheath wrote:
All the other high sustain champs are getting nerfed too. So what if Nidalee doesn't have a godmode laning phase? Those new Spears and the recent buff(bugfix) to Traps make her really strong mid/lategame. Other high sustain champs also getting nerfed isn't relevant to Nidalee early because Nidalee never went bottom to lane against them. But more to the point, I don't really see spears as something that can make up for having reduced laning presence. Reduced laning presence = reduced farm = reduced damage on spears. On August 24 2011 21:36 zalz wrote:
Noone of that matters.
You can still go top, you can still punish without end and you can still never be ganked.
Nidalee just goes top and push till the inhib is down, and she can still do that. Perhaps even better now that the leap is going to be subject to CD reduction. Punish without end? I don't understand how you're "punishing without end" when Nidalee's ability to trade damage is largely a result of her mana being her health bar, something that just got nerfed by 40-60% depending on how much AP you have. With a nerf like that you're *going* to go OOM and when you do you have to bluepill. That's not "punishing without end", that's being a run of the mill solo laner. As for pounce, yes it's 25% more spammable when you have 40% cdr but to get that you either have to build that CDR or elixir pump + runes + blue buff. Just blue buff alone will only give you 5% more spam than pre-patch, anything more and you have to give up damage or survivability. Maybe my QQ is a bit unwarranted (after all patch isn't even live yet) but at the same time I feel like your mid/lategame doesn't matter if you're completely forced out of lane early game, especially pre-6 (where Nidalee is weakest). Maybe it won't actually be that bad but zalz certainly seems to think that the heal nerf will be a complete non-issue, an idea I find to be completely ridiculous. The heal nerf will not affect her in any serious matter. Not nearly enough as it should be. Think about what her heal is now, and be honest. Her heal currently means you never ever have to leave the lane. It's so cheap and heals so much that you can't ever be forced off. Anyone that tries to deal damage gets damaged way more by you and you can just heal yourself up again. Nidalee is going to go from godlike to god-esque. She will remain a perma ban in tournaments simply because: 1) You still can't force her off the lane with 1v1 damage. 2) You still can't gank her.
Primal Surge
Mana cost adjusted to 60/80/100/120/140 from 65/70/75/80/85
Base heal adjusted to 50/85/120/155/190 from 60/90/120/150/180
Ability power ratio reduced to 0.7 from 1.25
I'm not sure why you're thinking this isn't a big deal. Nid heal costs more now and heals considerable less. That 1.25 to 0.7 drop is ridiculous. I don't think any other skill has had such a big single patch AP drop before.
If she can't heal like she could last patch, she definitely can't bully lane/trade hits as well early on. If you look at how HSGG played Nid at IEM, he would consistently trade hits with WW and push him back into tower. Take a free tower hit while auto'ing WW? np.
With heal doing less now, we can expect most Nid players to play more conservative and enemy laners try and harass more. Previously, most people just didn't even bother harassing Nid because it simply wasn't worth the effort. Now, Nid has to play safer instead of facerolling over opponents. She'll have to base a few more times in lane compared to before. This is more or less what Riot was aiming for.
However, I do agree with you that Nid will still be a tournament ban. Players like HSGG will manage the heal nerf and simply roll people with Spears even more now. But the weaker heal means less lane sustainability and that may contribute to a slightly slower NLR and other items.
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on a brighter note
another favorable match up for corki at top :>
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Jungles typically need 1 of 3 things: Ad/As steroids, stain/some type of shield, or a low cooldown decent damage aoe. Beyond that, jungles need to be characters who can reach effective power without needing a ton of farm. Thats why olaf has fallen off a cliff lately, he requires to much farm to be effective.
Most assassins tend not to be good junglers by design. You CAN jungle some of them, but their power level in jungle is kept low. The only true jungling assassin in the game that i can think of is noc. Every other assassin is kept out of jungle or deliberately weak simply because assassins can curbstomp if they are given the ability to jungle. Id be very surprised if Talon was effective in jungle.
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United States37500 Posts
Gonna try solo'ing lane again this patch. Just sticking with bruisers instead of real AP carries.
Wonder how Rumble will do now. He hasn't had any silly nerfs lately afaik.
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On August 24 2011 23:26 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 23:20 tobi9999 wrote:On August 24 2011 23:12 Insanious wrote:
Anyone else look at Talon and say to themselves "I sure as hell hope he can jungle?"
I mean look at the guy, he is built to gank:
1) Passive that gives bonus damage when he has red buff (as red slows)
2) A DoT that stacks with redbuff, so you can kill them even if they get into safety sometimes
3) A skill that teleports you to your prey
4) A damage buff on target you are ganking
5) An AoE slow so the opponent cannot run
6) The jump silences, means no flash
Not to mention, if he always has red buff means he doesn't need to buy frozen mallet and can then use that gold for more damage or for some defense.
You get him jungling and popping out at lvl 4 with red and I don't think most champions will be getting away, especially if what ever lane talon jumps into has a cc of their own.
Here's hoping that a cloth armor + 5 pot or vamp scepter opening can work on this guy in the jungle, because with Xin's new nerfs... I want another jungle that ganks just as hard.
Just my thoughts. To be able to jungle on a champion requires 2 things Rule 1: you take smite Rule 2: you follow rule 1. Also, I've given up trying to take anything from the details that are given in Patch Notes. Some things that I've thought would be huge nerfs have done nothing, and other things that are so tiny are just make heroes retarded. Able to jungle != Solid jungle != Good jungle. SURE you can jungle Soraka or Tristana. Will they be good? No. For a jungle you want: -Solid first clear time (4:30ish absolute max) -Self-sustain is a huge bonus (Trundle/Noc/WW/Udyr) -AoE damage helps a lot (Noc/Amu/Rammus) -Strong CC for ganks -The ability to counterjungle without fucking up your own route/timing too much. (That's actually where most junglers fail imho. Or I fail to get their drift.)
Funnily enough Tristana is one of the weird junglers that aren't absolutely awful. Rocket Jump and her Ultimate aren't too bad for ganking.
If you want to list champs that are total nonsense as junglers, consider Ashe and Vlad.
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Rumble still real strong. People just dont play things that arent bitched about.
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United States37500 Posts
On August 24 2011 23:32 Two_DoWn wrote:
Jungles typically need 1 of 3 things: Ad/As steroids, stain/some type of shield, or a low cooldown decent damage aoe. Beyond that, jungles need to be characters who can reach effective power without needing a ton of farm. Thats why olaf has fallen off a cliff lately, he requires to much farm to be effective.
Most assassins tend not to be good junglers by design. You CAN jungle some of them, but their power level in jungle is kept low. The only true jungling assassin in the game that i can think of is noc. Every other assassin is kept out of jungle or deliberately weak simply because assassins can curbstomp if they are given the ability to jungle. Id be very surprised if Talon was effective in jungle.
Shaco breaks your mold then. Unless you want to stretch it and call jitbs a shield.
Would be hilar if we see the dwindling of a stealth jungler only to see a resurgence of another stealth jungler.
dat scumbag Riot... zz.
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Did Csheep a few pages back say exactly what I was saying in the other GD thread and get people to actually go "oh damn, I should try that out?"
Like....do people ever even play veigar at all or do they just talk out of their ass and hope a higher elo player confirms said asstalking? Cause if you actually ever played him (and I don't mean for like 10 games and then going hurrdurrr i'm best veigar player) what csheep said was exactly how things turns out and makes 100% perfect sense..... yet somehow people are arguing against it when they're wrong lol (shikyo-esque kids....yep, i'm talking to you Tapioca...how does it feel??)
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On August 24 2011 23:27 NeoIllusions wrote:
That 1.25 to 0.7 drop is ridiculous. I don't think any other skill has had such a big single patch AP drop before.
Zilean's ult got dropped pretty hard.
Also, I think they need to nerf other forms of sustain other than just heals, lifesteal/spell vamp can get pretty ridiculous.
Also, is Nasus' slow the best in the game? I almost got a guy to a complete stop with it. Leads to really easy kills if you have someone who deals lots of damage with you.
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i cant login on any of the eu servers, anyone else heving problems or knows whats going on?
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On August 24 2011 23:35 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 23:32 Two_DoWn wrote:
Jungles typically need 1 of 3 things: Ad/As steroids, stain/some type of shield, or a low cooldown decent damage aoe. Beyond that, jungles need to be characters who can reach effective power without needing a ton of farm. Thats why olaf has fallen off a cliff lately, he requires to much farm to be effective.
Most assassins tend not to be good junglers by design. You CAN jungle some of them, but their power level in jungle is kept low. The only true jungling assassin in the game that i can think of is noc. Every other assassin is kept out of jungle or deliberately weak simply because assassins can curbstomp if they are given the ability to jungle. Id be very surprised if Talon was effective in jungle. Shaco breaks your mold then. Unless you want to stretch it and call jitbs a shield. Would be hilar if we see the dwindling of a stealth jungler only to see a resurgence of another stealth jungler. dat scumbag Riot... zz.
Shaco breaks every mold I laid out. He an assassin that is meant to be jungled. But ya. I guess you would have to call JITB a damage mitigation+bonus damage.
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On August 24 2011 23:35 BlackPaladin wrote:
Did Csheep a few pages back say exactly what I was saying in the other GD thread and get people to actually go "oh damn, I should try that out?"
Like....do people ever even play veigar at all or do they just talk out of their ass and hope a higher elo player confirms said asstalking? Cause if you actually ever played him (and I don't mean for like 10 games and then going hurrdurrr i'm best veigar player) what csheep said was exactly how things turns out and makes 100% perfect sense..... yet somehow people are arguing against it when they're wrong lol (shikyo-esque kids....yep, i'm talking to you Tapioca...how does it feel??)
1) CSheep is not high elo
2) Why is arguing against something when you're wrong a bad thing? How else you gonna learn?
3) 1, with the added note that his veigar < mine
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EPT
