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United States47024 Posts
On August 24 2011 21:56 zalz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 21:47 TheYango wrote:On August 24 2011 21:26 zalz wrote:On August 24 2011 20:59 Bulldozer wrote:
orianna, anivia, brand, annie are top of their class IMO I really don't see how Annie could possibly keep up against a brand or an Orianna. Only reason Annie sees any play is because Brand and Orianna get banned so often. Same damage, half the range. Brand has straight up worse ratios and utility than Orianna or Annie. He gets a lot out of being able to dominate many mid matchups, but Ori and Annie beat him out a fair bit on lategame utility. Also, people are forgetting about Zilean as a candidate for top-dog AP carry. He made a strong showing at Gamescom, and given how many melee DPS champs got buffed last patch (e.g. Garen, Pantheon, Nasus), the number of champs that synergize well with him has grown significantly. I have heard a lot of thing said about Brand but bad damage isn't one of them. His ratio's are a tad lower because he has 4 damage skills (3 of wich are AoE). Most of the AP mids don't actually have 4 damage skills. That said, top of my head, i don't recall his ratios being any worse then Annie.
Brand's Ratios:
Q - 0.65
W - 0.6 (0.75 on ablaze targets)
E - 0.55
R - 0.5
Annie's Ratios:
Q - 0.7
W - 0.75
R - 0.7 + 0.2 per burn tick
Orianna's Ratios:
Passive - 0.2
Q - 0.6
W - 0.5
E - 0.45
R - 0.7
So yes, Brand's ratios are worse than Annie's and Orianna's. And that's still not considering the fact that even if he lands every spell perfectly, he still does not match Orianna or Annie on utility by a long shot.
He's by no means bad, but he's not indisputably better than either Annie or Orianna.
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On August 24 2011 22:01 Wala.Revolution wrote:
.7 .75 .7 v .65 .6 .55 .5
That makes it 2.15 for Annie total AP scale and 2.35 for Brand, making him scale harder then Annie.
So Brand actually has better ratios then Annie.
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On August 24 2011 22:03 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 21:56 zalz wrote:On August 24 2011 21:47 TheYango wrote:On August 24 2011 21:26 zalz wrote:On August 24 2011 20:59 Bulldozer wrote:
orianna, anivia, brand, annie are top of their class IMO I really don't see how Annie could possibly keep up against a brand or an Orianna. Only reason Annie sees any play is because Brand and Orianna get banned so often. Same damage, half the range. Brand has straight up worse ratios and utility than Orianna or Annie. He gets a lot out of being able to dominate many mid matchups, but Ori and Annie beat him out a fair bit on lategame utility. Also, people are forgetting about Zilean as a candidate for top-dog AP carry. He made a strong showing at Gamescom, and given how many melee DPS champs got buffed last patch (e.g. Garen, Pantheon, Nasus), the number of champs that synergize well with him has grown significantly. I have heard a lot of thing said about Brand but bad damage isn't one of them. His ratio's are a tad lower because he has 4 damage skills (3 of wich are AoE). Most of the AP mids don't actually have 4 damage skills. That said, top of my head, i don't recall his ratios being any worse then Annie. Brand's Ratios: Q - 0.65 W - 0.6 (0.75 on ablaze targets) E - 0.55 R - 0.5 Annie's Ratios: Q - 0.7 W - 0.75 R - 0.7 + 0.2 per burn tick Orianna's Ratios: Passive - 0.2 Q - 0.6 W - 0.5 E - 0.45 R - 0.7 So yes, Brand's ratios are worse than Annie's and Orianna's. And that's still not considering the fact that even if he lands every spell perfectly, he still does not match Orianna or Annie on utility by a long shot. He's by no means bad, but he's not indisputably better than either Annie or Orianna.
-Doesn't take into account burning debuff
-Doesn't take into account that brand has an extra damage spell (as opposed to the rarely useful molten shield)
-Doesn't take into account brands batshit crazy range
-Doesn't take into account that the ultimate BOUNCES leading to far more than a 0.5 AP ratio.
Brand ultimate can be a 1.5 AP ratio on just one of the targets. He also has much, much better poke than annie.
Annie's strength is totally undodgeable combo but her weakness is she has to fully commit to a fight to do it.
Orianna is just stupid because she has a crazy slow+ultimate+shield on top of ridiculous damage with hidden AP ratios from her passive.
P.S WTF Xin zhao??? God damn it riot I'm still playing him in competitive play stop nerfing him. -.-
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United States47024 Posts
On August 24 2011 22:11 Slayer91 wrote:
-Doesn't take into account burning debuff
I didn't say Brand's overall damage is worse than either Annie or Orianna, just remarking that he has worse ratios and much worse utility.
On August 24 2011 22:11 Slayer91 wrote:
-Doesn't take into account that brand has an extra damage spell (as opposed to the rarely useful molten shield
Winding up a 2nd AoE stun in ~5 seconds is "rarely useful"?
On August 24 2011 22:11 Slayer91 wrote:
-Doesn't take into account that the ultimate BOUNCES leading to far more than a 0.5 AP ratio.
3 target Tibbers is about the same as having a Brand ult that hits 3 people and wastes 2 bounces on creeps. Not to mention you have control over WHICH 3 people you hit.
Again, I'm not arguing that Brand is bad. He's very clearly a top-notch AP carry. It's just stupid to say that the only reason Annie is played is because Brand/Ori are banned out of the pool--she has her own advantages which are relevant to many teamcomps--she just has weaknesses as well (just the same as any other AP carry).
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Fixed a bug where Champions could be pulled across the map while teleporting
lol skarner bug.
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The second AoE stun isn't really the significant because its much harder to hit more than 1 person with your W when you already probably wasted your flash and tibbers for the first one.
I don't know how you say his utility his worse than annie since he can cast his spells safely while annie can't.
Nobodies arguing orianna isn't overpowered so I'm not even going to mention her.
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On August 24 2011 22:17 Orpheos wrote:Show nested quote +Fixed a bug where Champions could be pulled across the map while teleporting lol skarner bug.
I do hope he can still grab flashers.
Half the fun playing Skarner is seeing people flip the fuck out after they get pulled back from a flash.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 24 2011 22:18 Slayer91 wrote:
The second AoE stun isn't really the significant because its much harder to hit more than 1 person with your W when you already probably wasted your flash and tibbers for the first one.
I don't know how you say his utility his worse than annie since he can cast his spells safely while annie can't.
Yes he has an easier time doing damage than Annie because he has fked range. But he doesn't do a whole lot for his team other than damage, which is generally what I figured we meant by "utility" (i.e. shit that helps your team that's not damage).
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On August 24 2011 21:36 zalz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 21:27 spinesheath wrote:On August 24 2011 20:35 phyvo wrote:
RIP Nidalee
They nerfed her healing which is her only good laning skill before ulti so now she can't lane for beans vs any of the popular sustain bruisers.
Pounce was also straight up nerfed until you get 25% CDR... so you more or less need to hog blue buff to have pounce where it was before or to have hope of having mana for your heal.
To give you an idea, buying DR+WOTA and throwing max range max skill spears at level 9 is now just as mana efficient (2.1 hp/mana) for healing as buying DR+NLR + BW and healing yourself with max E (also 2.1). The heal does scale better for healing but at least with WotA you can also heal yourself for free with cougar form...
(also if you only put one level in E then, surprise surprise, with DR+WOTA your healing efficiency is again at 2.1 hp/mana) All the other high sustain champs are getting nerfed too. So what if Nidalee doesn't have a godmode laning phase? Those new Spears and the recent buff(bugfix) to Traps make her really strong mid/lategame. Noone of that matters. You can still go top, you can still punish without end and you can still never be ganked. Nidalee just goes top and push till the inhib is down, and she can still do that. Perhaps even better now that the leap is going to be subject to CD reduction.
One of the most impactful plays by Hotshot at Gamescom was him standing behind the wall at the enemy inner bottom tower and spamming spears for massive damage. This does matter.
Reducing the Armor + MRes of an enemy by 40% also is MASSIVE. That's the stuff that makes tanks melt.
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On August 24 2011 22:22 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 21:36 zalz wrote:On August 24 2011 21:27 spinesheath wrote:On August 24 2011 20:35 phyvo wrote:
RIP Nidalee
They nerfed her healing which is her only good laning skill before ulti so now she can't lane for beans vs any of the popular sustain bruisers.
Pounce was also straight up nerfed until you get 25% CDR... so you more or less need to hog blue buff to have pounce where it was before or to have hope of having mana for your heal.
To give you an idea, buying DR+WOTA and throwing max range max skill spears at level 9 is now just as mana efficient (2.1 hp/mana) for healing as buying DR+NLR + BW and healing yourself with max E (also 2.1). The heal does scale better for healing but at least with WotA you can also heal yourself for free with cougar form...
(also if you only put one level in E then, surprise surprise, with DR+WOTA your healing efficiency is again at 2.1 hp/mana) All the other high sustain champs are getting nerfed too. So what if Nidalee doesn't have a godmode laning phase? Those new Spears and the recent buff(bugfix) to Traps make her really strong mid/lategame. Noone of that matters. You can still go top, you can still punish without end and you can still never be ganked. Nidalee just goes top and push till the inhib is down, and she can still do that. Perhaps even better now that the leap is going to be subject to CD reduction. One of the most impactful plays by Hotshot at Gamescom was him standing behind the wall at the enemy inner bottom tower and spamming spears for massive damage. This does matter. Reducing the Armor + MRes of an enemy by 40% also is MASSIVE. That's the stuff that makes tanks melt.
Yeah and they buffed spear so she is still OP as fuck.
Well not so much OP as impossible to counter.
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On August 24 2011 22:21 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 22:18 Slayer91 wrote:
The second AoE stun isn't really the significant because its much harder to hit more than 1 person with your W when you already probably wasted your flash and tibbers for the first one.
I don't know how you say his utility his worse than annie since he can cast his spells safely while annie can't. Yes he has an easier time doing damage than Annie because he has fked range. But he doesn't do a whole lot for his team other than damage, which is generally what I figured we meant by "utility" (i.e. shit that helps your team that's not damage).
What's annie's utility? An AoE stun on top of her ultimate. Not that significant. If you ask me the ability to use your range to zone people out of closed spaces, bushes, and to threaten a full combo or just a long range stun to save your teammates is utility, as it's somewhat indirect because it's conditional since it's easy to dodge brand in an open area.
To me, nidalee spears also adds utility to the team because of the zoning and poking power of them.
The only other thing I can think of as utility is some form of CC, or shield/speed up/heal.
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On August 24 2011 22:27 zalz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 22:22 spinesheath wrote:On August 24 2011 21:36 zalz wrote:On August 24 2011 21:27 spinesheath wrote:On August 24 2011 20:35 phyvo wrote:
RIP Nidalee
They nerfed her healing which is her only good laning skill before ulti so now she can't lane for beans vs any of the popular sustain bruisers.
Pounce was also straight up nerfed until you get 25% CDR... so you more or less need to hog blue buff to have pounce where it was before or to have hope of having mana for your heal.
To give you an idea, buying DR+WOTA and throwing max range max skill spears at level 9 is now just as mana efficient (2.1 hp/mana) for healing as buying DR+NLR + BW and healing yourself with max E (also 2.1). The heal does scale better for healing but at least with WotA you can also heal yourself for free with cougar form...
(also if you only put one level in E then, surprise surprise, with DR+WOTA your healing efficiency is again at 2.1 hp/mana) All the other high sustain champs are getting nerfed too. So what if Nidalee doesn't have a godmode laning phase? Those new Spears and the recent buff(bugfix) to Traps make her really strong mid/lategame. Noone of that matters. You can still go top, you can still punish without end and you can still never be ganked. Nidalee just goes top and push till the inhib is down, and she can still do that. Perhaps even better now that the leap is going to be subject to CD reduction. One of the most impactful plays by Hotshot at Gamescom was him standing behind the wall at the enemy inner bottom tower and spamming spears for massive damage. This does matter. Reducing the Armor + MRes of an enemy by 40% also is MASSIVE. That's the stuff that makes tanks melt. Yeah and they buffed spear so she is still OP as fuck. Well not so much OP as impossible to counter.
Could it be that you didn't actually mean to quote me, but phyvo, initially?
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annie is probably still popular because she puts out a very consistent, easy to hit amount of damage. she does scale worse into late game because she cant burst/poke from a mile away, but shes super easy to play.
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On August 24 2011 22:29 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 22:27 zalz wrote:On August 24 2011 22:22 spinesheath wrote:On August 24 2011 21:36 zalz wrote:On August 24 2011 21:27 spinesheath wrote:On August 24 2011 20:35 phyvo wrote:
RIP Nidalee
They nerfed her healing which is her only good laning skill before ulti so now she can't lane for beans vs any of the popular sustain bruisers.
Pounce was also straight up nerfed until you get 25% CDR... so you more or less need to hog blue buff to have pounce where it was before or to have hope of having mana for your heal.
To give you an idea, buying DR+WOTA and throwing max range max skill spears at level 9 is now just as mana efficient (2.1 hp/mana) for healing as buying DR+NLR + BW and healing yourself with max E (also 2.1). The heal does scale better for healing but at least with WotA you can also heal yourself for free with cougar form...
(also if you only put one level in E then, surprise surprise, with DR+WOTA your healing efficiency is again at 2.1 hp/mana) All the other high sustain champs are getting nerfed too. So what if Nidalee doesn't have a godmode laning phase? Those new Spears and the recent buff(bugfix) to Traps make her really strong mid/lategame. Noone of that matters. You can still go top, you can still punish without end and you can still never be ganked. Nidalee just goes top and push till the inhib is down, and she can still do that. Perhaps even better now that the leap is going to be subject to CD reduction. One of the most impactful plays by Hotshot at Gamescom was him standing behind the wall at the enemy inner bottom tower and spamming spears for massive damage. This does matter. Reducing the Armor + MRes of an enemy by 40% also is MASSIVE. That's the stuff that makes tanks melt. Yeah and they buffed spear so she is still OP as fuck. Well not so much OP as impossible to counter. Could it be that you didn't actually mean to quote me, but phyvo, initially?
Lol, i think we got our wires crossed idd.
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so much strong ap's now days dont get why u guys qq about whos better,mostly comes down to skill imo
brand,annie,ori,ryze,anivia,cass,galio,gragas,karthus,malz,morg,zil
all viable at the highest level of play
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United States37500 Posts
so tru loco...
Was amusing to watch Loci Ryze melt a fed and farmed Pobelt Jax last night. Pretty ridonkulous.
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No veigar Loco? 
Edit: WAIT WHAT 50 MIN LOGIN QUEUE ON EU WEST WTF IS THIS WTFWTFWTF
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United States37500 Posts
I think Veigar and Heimer are both viable picks, even at high elo. They just need to be last picked for your team and team has to build around them. Otherwise, they're pretty silly countered.
AP has such a vast selection... it's not even comparable with other roles.
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United States37500 Posts
On August 24 2011 22:43 r.Evo wrote:No veigar Loco? Edit: WAIT WHAT 50 MIN LOGIN QUEUE ON EU WEST WTF IS THIS WTFWTFWTF
Those fat hamburgers are probably invading the EU servers since their own is down.
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On August 24 2011 22:46 NeoIllusions wrote:
I think Veigar and Heimer are both viable picks, even at high elo. They just need to be last picked for your team and team has to build around them. Otherwise, they're pretty silly countered.
AP has such a vast selection... it's not even comparable with other roles.
Veigar is stretching it.
Heimer is just ridiculous.
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EPT
