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On August 26 2011 06:53 57 Corvette wrote:
So i asked in the first few pages, but I didn't really get a true response.
When is it really worth it to stop buying extra armour/MR on tanks? I know 100 resistance is 50% damage reduct, 150 is 60% and 200 is 66%, but when does it become not worth the money for more?
I have been stopping at 150 on maokai, and 200 on other tanks, so I am not sure which is more efficient.
I stop at around 200 on Galio, but that's because I max his shield 2nd (+90 arm/res + heal ftw), and with my runes and his innate stats, I get to about that with FoN and thornmail. Then I build deathcap or banshee.
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Platinum achieved -> i'm just as good as chrispy now
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United States47024 Posts
On August 26 2011 06:53 57 Corvette wrote:
So i asked in the first few pages, but I didn't really get a true response.
When is it really worth it to stop buying extra armour/MR on tanks? I know 100 resistance is 50% damage reduct, 150 is 60% and 200 is 66%, but when does it become not worth the money for more?
I have been stopping at 150 on maokai, and 200 on other tanks, so I am not sure which is more efficient.
The answer is "whenever you're not dying in fights". Mitigation beyond what keeps you alive does nothing, and how much you need is going to be 100% dependent on the game in question.
That said, you need to balance out your purchase between armor/MR and HP, as they are multiplicative mitigation stats, and skewing too much towards one or the other is less cost-effective than buying them in a good mix. For that, this is helpful: http://imgur.com/a/39PXW
On August 26 2011 07:01 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 06:53 57 Corvette wrote:
So i asked in the first few pages, but I didn't really get a true response.
When is it really worth it to stop buying extra armour/MR on tanks? I know 100 resistance is 50% damage reduct, 150 is 60% and 200 is 66%, but when does it become not worth the money for more?
I have been stopping at 150 on maokai, and 200 on other tanks, so I am not sure which is more efficient. I stop at around 200 on Galio, but that's because I max his shield 2nd (+90 arm/res + heal ftw), and with my runes and his innate stats, I get to about that with FoN and thornmail. Then I build deathcap or banshee.
Buying 200 of each resistance stat without buying any HP is guaranteed not cost-effective.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 26 2011 07:04 stormtemplar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 07:02 TheYango wrote:On August 26 2011 06:53 57 Corvette wrote:
So i asked in the first few pages, but I didn't really get a true response.
When is it really worth it to stop buying extra armour/MR on tanks? I know 100 resistance is 50% damage reduct, 150 is 60% and 200 is 66%, but when does it become not worth the money for more?
I have been stopping at 150 on maokai, and 200 on other tanks, so I am not sure which is more efficient. The answer is "whenever you're not dying in fights". Mitigation beyond what keeps you alive does nothing, and how much you need is going to be 100% dependent on the game in question. That said, you need to balance out your purchase between armor/MR and HP, as they are multiplicative damage stats, and skewing too much towards one or the other is less cost-effective than buying them in a good mix. For that, this is helpful: http://imgur.com/a/39PXW Guys, armor does not give diminishing returns http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/ArmorEach point increases EHP by 1% I believe
It's not about diminishing returns. It's about armor being multiplicative with HP to give you EHP.
If you have 500 HP and 0 armor, buying 5 HP and 1 armor are each a 1% EHP increase. When you have 500 HP and 100 armor, 1 armor is still a 1% EHP increase, but buying 5 HP is now a 2% EHP increase because having 100 armor makes your 5 more HP twice as good.
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On August 26 2011 07:04 stormtemplar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 07:02 TheYango wrote:On August 26 2011 06:53 57 Corvette wrote:
So i asked in the first few pages, but I didn't really get a true response.
When is it really worth it to stop buying extra armour/MR on tanks? I know 100 resistance is 50% damage reduct, 150 is 60% and 200 is 66%, but when does it become not worth the money for more?
I have been stopping at 150 on maokai, and 200 on other tanks, so I am not sure which is more efficient. The answer is "whenever you're not dying in fights". Mitigation beyond what keeps you alive does nothing, and how much you need is going to be 100% dependent on the game in question. That said, you need to balance out your purchase between armor/MR and HP, as they are multiplicative damage stats, and skewing too much towards one or the other is less cost-effective than buying them in a good mix. For that, this is helpful: http://imgur.com/a/39PXW Guys, armor does not give diminishing returns http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/ArmorEach point increases EHP by 1% I believe
The math is actually kinda funny. Like, it looks a lot weaker to go from 150 to 200 than 100 to 150 but its less of a difference than it looks. 50% -> 60% is basically a 20% reduction in damage, whereas 60% -> 66.6...% is a ~17% reduction. So its diminishing returns but not as rapidly diminishing as it looks at first. Tooling around a bit, 250 armour is 5/7 damage reduction and gives you ~14% less damage than 200 armour.
So it is diminishing returns but not as diminishing as it first looks.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 26 2011 07:13 Treadmill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 07:04 stormtemplar wrote:On August 26 2011 07:02 TheYango wrote:On August 26 2011 06:53 57 Corvette wrote:
So i asked in the first few pages, but I didn't really get a true response.
When is it really worth it to stop buying extra armour/MR on tanks? I know 100 resistance is 50% damage reduct, 150 is 60% and 200 is 66%, but when does it become not worth the money for more?
I have been stopping at 150 on maokai, and 200 on other tanks, so I am not sure which is more efficient. The answer is "whenever you're not dying in fights". Mitigation beyond what keeps you alive does nothing, and how much you need is going to be 100% dependent on the game in question. That said, you need to balance out your purchase between armor/MR and HP, as they are multiplicative damage stats, and skewing too much towards one or the other is less cost-effective than buying them in a good mix. For that, this is helpful: http://imgur.com/a/39PXW Guys, armor does not give diminishing returns http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/ArmorEach point increases EHP by 1% I believe The math is actually kinda funny. Like, it looks a lot weaker to go from 150 to 200 than 100 to 150 but its less of a difference than it looks. 50% -> 60% is basically a 20% reduction in damage, whereas 60% -> 66.6...% is a ~17% reduction. So its diminishing returns but not as rapidly diminishing as it looks at first. Tooling around a bit, 250 armour is 5/7 damage reduction and gives you ~14% less damage than 200 armour. So it is diminishing returns but not as diminishing as it first looks.
No, what he's saying is *technically* right. Armor and MR are both 1% EHP gain per point, but EHP is calculated as a product of your armor/MR with your HP, and HP is NOT a flat % gain in EHP--rather how much EHP a point of HP is worth depends on how much of each mitigation stat you already have.
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On August 26 2011 07:16 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 07:13 Treadmill wrote:On August 26 2011 07:04 stormtemplar wrote:On August 26 2011 07:02 TheYango wrote:On August 26 2011 06:53 57 Corvette wrote:
So i asked in the first few pages, but I didn't really get a true response.
When is it really worth it to stop buying extra armour/MR on tanks? I know 100 resistance is 50% damage reduct, 150 is 60% and 200 is 66%, but when does it become not worth the money for more?
I have been stopping at 150 on maokai, and 200 on other tanks, so I am not sure which is more efficient. The answer is "whenever you're not dying in fights". Mitigation beyond what keeps you alive does nothing, and how much you need is going to be 100% dependent on the game in question. That said, you need to balance out your purchase between armor/MR and HP, as they are multiplicative damage stats, and skewing too much towards one or the other is less cost-effective than buying them in a good mix. For that, this is helpful: http://imgur.com/a/39PXW Guys, armor does not give diminishing returns http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/ArmorEach point increases EHP by 1% I believe The math is actually kinda funny. Like, it looks a lot weaker to go from 150 to 200 than 100 to 150 but its less of a difference than it looks. 50% -> 60% is basically a 20% reduction in damage, whereas 60% -> 66.6...% is a ~17% reduction. So its diminishing returns but not as rapidly diminishing as it looks at first. Tooling around a bit, 250 armour is 5/7 damage reduction and gives you ~14% less damage than 200 armour. So it is diminishing returns but not as diminishing as it first looks. No, what he's saying is *technically* right. Armor and MR are both 1% EHP gain per point, but EHP is calculated as a product of your armor/MR with your HP, and HP is NOT a flat % gain in EHP--rather how much EHP a point of HP is worth depends on how much of each mitigation stat you already have.
A 1% increase to 100% = 1/100th
A 1% increase to 200% = 1/ 200th
So, diminishing returns.
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On August 26 2011 06:57 spinesheath wrote:
So let's set this straight:
SORAKA DEALS A TON OF DAMAGE.
There. Stop your bitching.
She does. I made the mistake last night of A) standing directly next to her and B) missing Q point blank as Brand. The damage from her Q adds up fast.
But then I just outranged her with W and Q forever and had no problems farming.
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On August 26 2011 07:07 TheYango wrote:
It's not about diminishing returns. It's about armor being multiplicative with HP to give you EHP.
If you have 500 HP and 0 armor, buying 5 HP and 1 armor are each a 1% EHP increase. When you have 500 HP and 100 armor, 1 armor is still a 1% EHP increase, but buying 5 HP is now a 2% EHP increase because having 100 armor makes your 5 more HP twice as good.
Yango's post pretty much sums it up. It does not give diminishing returns if it was the only thing you could buy, but it gives diminishing returns relative to other options (in League, this is pretty much just Hit Points. Other games may have dodge, shield block, percent reduction, etc.)
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Reading before posting should be mandatory.
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To be honest that argument makes no sense.
Question towards defensive items should always be:
Can I do the job I have to do with my current defensive items?
e.g. You're Nocturne and since you have a main tank your job is to blow up the enemy carry asap. You have only a Wriggles, Mercs and a HoG. Get her blown up with full health? Np, buy towards GB. You JUST get her blown up before you explode / you fail at the task / you know you'll fail that task: Buy health. You STILL get blown up? Start stacking resists.
In almost any case #1 health #2 resists are the best possible way of mitigation.
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On August 26 2011 07:16 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 07:13 Treadmill wrote:On August 26 2011 07:04 stormtemplar wrote:On August 26 2011 07:02 TheYango wrote:On August 26 2011 06:53 57 Corvette wrote:
So i asked in the first few pages, but I didn't really get a true response.
When is it really worth it to stop buying extra armour/MR on tanks? I know 100 resistance is 50% damage reduct, 150 is 60% and 200 is 66%, but when does it become not worth the money for more?
I have been stopping at 150 on maokai, and 200 on other tanks, so I am not sure which is more efficient. The answer is "whenever you're not dying in fights". Mitigation beyond what keeps you alive does nothing, and how much you need is going to be 100% dependent on the game in question. That said, you need to balance out your purchase between armor/MR and HP, as they are multiplicative damage stats, and skewing too much towards one or the other is less cost-effective than buying them in a good mix. For that, this is helpful: http://imgur.com/a/39PXW Guys, armor does not give diminishing returns http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/ArmorEach point increases EHP by 1% I believe The math is actually kinda funny. Like, it looks a lot weaker to go from 150 to 200 than 100 to 150 but its less of a difference than it looks. 50% -> 60% is basically a 20% reduction in damage, whereas 60% -> 66.6...% is a ~17% reduction. So its diminishing returns but not as rapidly diminishing as it looks at first. Tooling around a bit, 250 armour is 5/7 damage reduction and gives you ~14% less damage than 200 armour. So it is diminishing returns but not as diminishing as it first looks. No, what he's saying is *technically* right. Armor and MR are both 1% EHP gain per point, but EHP is calculated as a product of your armor/MR with your HP, and HP is NOT a flat % gain in EHP--rather how much EHP a point of HP is worth depends on how much of each mitigation stat you already have.
This is unfortunately a common misconception. The concept of "effective HP" is not actually used by the game engine. The game engine uses damage reduction modifiers, and when you graph the function that is used to calculate said modifiers, there is indeed a diminishing return granted from buying armor.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 26 2011 07:17 Treadmill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 07:16 TheYango wrote:On August 26 2011 07:13 Treadmill wrote:On August 26 2011 07:04 stormtemplar wrote:On August 26 2011 07:02 TheYango wrote:On August 26 2011 06:53 57 Corvette wrote:
So i asked in the first few pages, but I didn't really get a true response.
When is it really worth it to stop buying extra armour/MR on tanks? I know 100 resistance is 50% damage reduct, 150 is 60% and 200 is 66%, but when does it become not worth the money for more?
I have been stopping at 150 on maokai, and 200 on other tanks, so I am not sure which is more efficient. The answer is "whenever you're not dying in fights". Mitigation beyond what keeps you alive does nothing, and how much you need is going to be 100% dependent on the game in question. That said, you need to balance out your purchase between armor/MR and HP, as they are multiplicative damage stats, and skewing too much towards one or the other is less cost-effective than buying them in a good mix. For that, this is helpful: http://imgur.com/a/39PXW Guys, armor does not give diminishing returns http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/ArmorEach point increases EHP by 1% I believe The math is actually kinda funny. Like, it looks a lot weaker to go from 150 to 200 than 100 to 150 but its less of a difference than it looks. 50% -> 60% is basically a 20% reduction in damage, whereas 60% -> 66.6...% is a ~17% reduction. So its diminishing returns but not as rapidly diminishing as it looks at first. Tooling around a bit, 250 armour is 5/7 damage reduction and gives you ~14% less damage than 200 armour. So it is diminishing returns but not as diminishing as it first looks. No, what he's saying is *technically* right. Armor and MR are both 1% EHP gain per point, but EHP is calculated as a product of your armor/MR with your HP, and HP is NOT a flat % gain in EHP--rather how much EHP a point of HP is worth depends on how much of each mitigation stat you already have. A 1% increase to 100% = 1/100th A 1% increase to 200% = 1/ 200th So, diminishing returns.
No, it's still not diminishing returns. The reason that you want to mix defensive stats is not because each stat gets worse the more you buy of it, but rather, each stat gets BETTER the more you buy of the OTHER one. Each point of HP you buy makes buying armor give you more EHP/gold, while each point of armor you buy makes buying HP give you more EHP/gold.
On August 26 2011 07:44 HyperionDreamer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 07:16 TheYango wrote:On August 26 2011 07:13 Treadmill wrote:On August 26 2011 07:04 stormtemplar wrote:On August 26 2011 07:02 TheYango wrote:On August 26 2011 06:53 57 Corvette wrote:
So i asked in the first few pages, but I didn't really get a true response.
When is it really worth it to stop buying extra armour/MR on tanks? I know 100 resistance is 50% damage reduct, 150 is 60% and 200 is 66%, but when does it become not worth the money for more?
I have been stopping at 150 on maokai, and 200 on other tanks, so I am not sure which is more efficient. The answer is "whenever you're not dying in fights". Mitigation beyond what keeps you alive does nothing, and how much you need is going to be 100% dependent on the game in question. That said, you need to balance out your purchase between armor/MR and HP, as they are multiplicative damage stats, and skewing too much towards one or the other is less cost-effective than buying them in a good mix. For that, this is helpful: http://imgur.com/a/39PXW Guys, armor does not give diminishing returns http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/ArmorEach point increases EHP by 1% I believe The math is actually kinda funny. Like, it looks a lot weaker to go from 150 to 200 than 100 to 150 but its less of a difference than it looks. 50% -> 60% is basically a 20% reduction in damage, whereas 60% -> 66.6...% is a ~17% reduction. So its diminishing returns but not as rapidly diminishing as it looks at first. Tooling around a bit, 250 armour is 5/7 damage reduction and gives you ~14% less damage than 200 armour. So it is diminishing returns but not as diminishing as it first looks. No, what he's saying is *technically* right. Armor and MR are both 1% EHP gain per point, but EHP is calculated as a product of your armor/MR with your HP, and HP is NOT a flat % gain in EHP--rather how much EHP a point of HP is worth depends on how much of each mitigation stat you already have. This is unfortunately a common misconception. The concept of "effective HP" is not actually used by the game engine. The game engine uses damage reduction modifiers, and when you graph the function that is used to calculate said modifiers, there is indeed a diminishing return granted from buying armor.
It doesn't matter how the game engine calculates it. The fact of the matter is that buying more armor does not become less cost-effective the more you buy of it, and so it's not diminishing returns. If you have 500 HP and 0 armor, you do not gain any less survivability going from 0->100 armor as you would going from 100->200 armor. Each 100 armor jump lets you take exactly 500 more raw physical damage. The difference is that when you have 0 armor, buying 500 HP lets you take 500 more physical damage, while at 100 armor, buying 500 HP lets you take 1000 more physical damage. Again, mitigation stats do not give diminishing returns on survivability as you buy more of them; the reason you mix stats is because due to the fact that they are multiplicative, buying one stat makes the OTHER stat more cost-effective.
Buying armor does not get worse as you buy more armor--whether it's "good" or "bad" to buy armor vs. HP depends on the HP/armor mix you have. Simply, buying HP makes buying armor better, and buying armor makes buying HP better.
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Well I've found out that its enough resistances to have atmas, 3 warmogs and FoN, with that you dont get bursted down too quickly. So I'd say about 150/150 rest hp is good. If you go for more dmg go for only 2 warmogs and triforce or whatever you choose
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^ How does that make any more sense? Hypothetically, at that stage in the game your enemy carry probably has a Doran's Blade, Zerkers, a BF Sword and a Pickaxe, so they're probably going to finish IE and then maybe even build a Phantom Dancer before their next defensive item, meaning you don't need to build a GB to keep blowing them up. Meanwhile you will need defensive items to survive everyone's scaling AoE's when their Malzahar finishes his Deathcap.
EDIT: wow this forum goes fast, directed at r.Evo. Lol at Shikyo 
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On August 26 2011 07:46 Shikyo wrote:
Well I've found out that its enough resistances to have atmas, 3 warmogs and FoN, with that you dont get bursted down too quickly. So I'd say about 150/150 rest hp is good. If you go for more dmg go for only 2 warmogs and triforce or whatever you choose
Myself I'd go with 4 warmogs. Boots are overrated.
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LW/Void are why you don't want to just stack armor or mr.
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So I got 4800 IP. Buy Orianna now or keep saving for Brand? I plan on getting them both.
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^--- both are 6300. Save more.
I just tried skarner for the first time, he feels fun but I'm not sure if he's actually any good.
I ran 9 0 21, should prolly be like 0 21 9 for solo top?
Manamune good? Just did Manamune -> Tank but didnt feel good. o.o
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EPT
