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On September 07 2011 21:59 Potatisodlaren wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 21:06 JackDino wrote:On September 07 2011 20:46 epoc wrote:On September 07 2011 20:41 Promises wrote:
Is Lee Sin really that strong? In my experience his shield is almost negligably (is that a word?) small, and he's really not all that tanky, certainly not compared to an Udyr. Granted he has great mobility and utility and he certainly isnt a bad champ, but I just never considered him SUCH a strong pick, certainly not to be on level with Orianna (or firstban/firstpick stuff). Yes he is strong. Not enough strong that they should nerf him though Lolwut? He's hella tanky and hurts so much, and you can't even counter him that easily in lane since he can lane against more champs than any other champ in the game. I was under the impression that you always jungle him. The only times I've seen him lane is if you pick him to deny him as a potential jungler for the enemy team, like CLG got him and Noc in IEM one game I remember. If he was such a strong laner as you claim then why would everyone jungle him all the time even with Fiddle/Noc/GP available for jungling?
Because he's also a strong jungler with great ganks:p? People used to lane GP and jungle GP, same with udyr etc, just because he's great top doesn't mean he's not great in the jungle.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying he should be nerfed, I'm just saying he will be nerfed:p
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On September 07 2011 21:59 Potatisodlaren wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 21:06 JackDino wrote:On September 07 2011 20:46 epoc wrote:On September 07 2011 20:41 Promises wrote:
Is Lee Sin really that strong? In my experience his shield is almost negligably (is that a word?) small, and he's really not all that tanky, certainly not compared to an Udyr. Granted he has great mobility and utility and he certainly isnt a bad champ, but I just never considered him SUCH a strong pick, certainly not to be on level with Orianna (or firstban/firstpick stuff). Yes he is strong. Not enough strong that they should nerf him though Lolwut? He's hella tanky and hurts so much, and you can't even counter him that easily in lane since he can lane against more champs than any other champ in the game. I was under the impression that you always jungle him. The only times I've seen him lane is if you pick him to deny him as a potential jungler for the enemy team, like CLG got him and Noc in IEM one game I remember. If he was such a strong laner as you claim then why would everyone jungle him all the time even with Fiddle/Noc/GP available for jungling?
Lee Sin is an amazing laner and by far the best jungler in the game.
That most people decide to send him into the jungle does not change the fact that he is incredible on top lane. His Q shot + dash is one of the highest base damage in the game. Mix that up with a shield, life steal, a long range safety dash, a slow and a knockback and you end up with a champ that dominates most on lane and is more or less immune to ganks.
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On September 07 2011 20:46 epoc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 20:41 Promises wrote:
Is Lee Sin really that strong? In my experience his shield is almost negligably (is that a word?) small, and he's really not all that tanky, certainly not compared to an Udyr. Granted he has great mobility and utility and he certainly isnt a bad champ, but I just never considered him SUCH a strong pick, certainly not to be on level with Orianna (or firstban/firstpick stuff). Yes he is strong. Not enough strong that they should nerf him though
TheOddOne disagrees with you : http://solomid.net/blog.php?v=12154
«Lee Sin:
Current Status: Probably near Orianna levels of Power, simply able to carry with wriggles/health items
Future Status: Likely going to be nerfed hard in the upcoming 1-3 patches.»
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I wonder how they could nerf lee. He was considered completely useless and then got minor tiny buffs and now he is the hottest shit ever? The only straight damage decrease I can imagine is mb a little scaling on his Q. I mean the guy has such low base stats compared to other bruisers. And the reasoning that he doesnt need as much farm is completely wrong. In terms of farm independance he is nothing near udyr for example.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 07 2011 22:12 mr_tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 20:46 epoc wrote:On September 07 2011 20:41 Promises wrote:
Is Lee Sin really that strong? In my experience his shield is almost negligably (is that a word?) small, and he's really not all that tanky, certainly not compared to an Udyr. Granted he has great mobility and utility and he certainly isnt a bad champ, but I just never considered him SUCH a strong pick, certainly not to be on level with Orianna (or firstban/firstpick stuff). Yes he is strong. Not enough strong that they should nerf him though TheOddOne disagrees with you : http://solomid.net/blog.php?v=12154«Lee Sin: Current Status: Probably near Orianna levels of Power, simply able to carry with wriggles/health items Future Status: Likely going to be nerfed hard in the upcoming 1-3 patches.»
Expecting him to be nerfed doesn't mean he believes he should be nerfed.
I mean, given Riot's track record, it should be clear to anyone that Lee Sin is going to get a nerf of some kind.
On September 07 2011 22:39 clickrush wrote:
I wonder how they could nerf lee. He was considered completely useless and then got minor tiny buffs and now he is the hottest shit ever? The only straight damage decrease I can imagine is mb a little scaling on his Q. I mean the guy has such low base stats compared to other bruisers. And the reasoning that he doesnt need as much farm is completely wrong. In terms of farm independance he is nothing near udyr for example.
He was considered "near-useless" by the mindless masses who didn't know how to play him at release. So were Brand, Irelia, and Rumble.
Udyr is super farm-dependent because his comparative farm-independent utility is poor. He has no gap-closing power, so he needs to get significant amounts of both tankiness and damage. Being just a frontline stunbot that doesn't really do any damage is pretty bad.
Even if peoples' survivability outscales your damage as Lee Sin (unlikely given your usual targets), you still have: a shield for your teammate, an AoE attack-speed reducer (very significant against bruisers and AD carries), and an AoE knockback/knockup. Lee Sin is WAY less farm-dependent than Udyr because of his sheer utility.
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On September 07 2011 22:39 clickrush wrote:
I wonder how they could nerf lee. He was considered completely useless and then got minor tiny buffs and now he is the hottest shit ever? The only straight damage decrease I can imagine is mb a little scaling on his Q. I mean the guy has such low base stats compared to other bruisers. And the reasoning that he doesnt need as much farm is completely wrong. In terms of farm independance he is nothing near udyr for example.
Are you really surprised people need a while to become good at champs that rely on skillshots and targeted mobility? LS definitely isn't the easiest champ to play well.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 07 2011 22:42 spinesheath wrote:
Are you really surprised people need a while to become good at champs that rely on skillshots and targeted mobility? LS definitely isn't the easiest champ to play well.
Even champs with comparatively easy mechanics have taken several months for people to figure out (like Irelia).
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So if the figuring out was the reason for LS to be on the background for so long: Why would riot need to nerf him at all?
LS players took alot of effort to learn all the stuff to make him a strong pick. Matchups, Jungle routes, builds, mechanics etc. Now they have figured out most of it and LS is strong. Why not give everyone time to figure out how to beat him? Same thing with orianna. She took a while before ppl started to permban her. Now let everyone figure out how to beat her and were fine again.
Looking at irelia I think it was very dumb of riot to nerf her that much. Yes she is still good but the nerfs werent that needed. There are counterpicks you can send against her on lane such as garen or akali and I think there are even more others.
This FOTM nerfing just makes things worse for LoL I think. Even if its only the mindset of the community in general that gets hindered to change because riot just nerfs stuff that is currently strong instead of giving the players time to figure thigs out.
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So I've been getting better as Caitlyn, Brand, and Akali, so I figure I need a tanky-dps/AD melee to round out my champion pool. Would you recommend Lee Sin? I got to play a couple games as him while he was free, and he was fun, but so was Garen. I haven't had a chance to play Irelia, either, but she seems like she might be alright.
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Wait is Elo decay after 3 weeks? My last ranked (as well as Smash') was the 25th, so maybe that means we're safe O_O
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United States47024 Posts
On September 07 2011 23:07 clickrush wrote:
LS players took alot of effort to learn all the stuff to make him a strong pick. Matchups, Jungle routes, builds, mechanics etc. Now they have figured out most of it and LS is strong. Why not give everyone time to figure out how to beat him? Same thing with orianna. She took a while before ppl started to permban her. Now let everyone figure out how to beat her and were fine again.
Lots of people have been saying this on TL for a while--that Orianna really isn't as strong as she's made out to be, and that she's winning lots of matchups she shouldn't based purely on fear.
On September 07 2011 23:07 clickrush wrote:
This FOTM nerfing just makes things worse for LoL I think. Even if its only the mindset of the community in general that gets hindered to change because riot just nerfs stuff that is currently strong instead of giving the players time to figure thigs out.
You hit the nail on the head.
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My issues with hero balance is more relative. I have a tendency to believe that bullshit skills are bullshit and must be treated as such. Orianna's ult is bullshit, although I don't think she's as OP as some people make her out to be. It's got giant range, circumvents tenacity, and is essentially Annie's ult, which means she essentially becomes Annie 2, except with stronger utility and significantly better range.
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My main problem with Orianna is that I can't dodge that bloody ball even with boots first so she just gets free hits on me whether or not I want to last hit.
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On September 07 2011 23:38 phyvo wrote:
My main problem with Orianna is that I can't dodge that bloody ball even with boots first so she just gets free hits on me whether or not I want to last hit.
Buy a magnet and deny the ball.
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On September 07 2011 23:35 Southlight wrote:
My issues with hero balance is more relative. I have a tendency to believe that bullshit skills are bullshit and must be treated as such. Orianna's ult is bullshit, although I don't think she's as OP as some people make her out to be. It's got giant range, circumvents tenacity, and is essentially Annie's ult, which means she essentially becomes Annie 2, except with stronger utility and significantly better range.
It seems the range has been Ninja nerfed with the AoE bug correction. As an Orianna mainer in normal games, I can ensure that since a good week (read : Khart back in the champ pool) I have a much harder time hitting it well.
Her Q as well seem to have lost a few pixels of AoE range, but it helps it move through the creeps easier to hit right clickers with 100% damage. Against real players knowing how to faint and move well it has become harder though :'(
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What's even worse about Orianna: You just CAN NOT chase her. Trying to engage on a team that has an Orianna is just asking for her to get a perfect ult off. From 1500 range.
Plus that ball is just ridiculously hard to spot in fights.
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On September 07 2011 23:07 clickrush wrote:This FOTM nerfing just makes things worse for LoL I think. Even if its only the mindset of the community in general that gets hindered to change because riot just nerfs stuff that is currently strong instead of giving the players time to figure thigs out.
What's sad is the easiest (best) way to fix this is to release replay functionality. A ton of the nerfs (looking at you xin) that Riot hands out is because of pubstomping and general imbalance at the lower levels of play. Similar to Starcraft, with replays, lower level players will be able to watch higher level players play a given match-up and can learn how to beat the champs which dominate low level play but are only meh at high level play.
That and slowing down their balance patching would also help as it would give people more time to learn how to deal with strong champions instead of simply "XXX is too strong, I'll just bitch about it for two weeks until my champ can beat him" instead of putting the effort into learning how to handle the MU
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On September 07 2011 22:39 clickrush wrote:
I wonder how they could nerf lee. He was considered completely useless and then got minor tiny buffs and now he is the hottest shit ever? The only straight damage decrease I can imagine is mb a little scaling on his Q. I mean the guy has such low base stats compared to other bruisers. And the reasoning that he doesnt need as much farm is completely wrong. In terms of farm independance he is nothing near udyr for example.
What other people saying about people being stupid is true, but also:
Changes deployed in the April 5th hotfix
Sonic Wave bonus attack damage scaling increased to 1.0 from 0.8
Resonating Strike bonus attack damage scaling inceased to 1.0 from 0.8
Tempest bonus attack damage scaling inceased to 1.0 from 0.6
Dragon's Rage bonus attack damage scaling inceased to 2.0 from 1.5
Flurry passive energy gain increased to 15 from 10 per hit
He gained 1.3 bonus AD scaling on his full rotation. 3.7 -> 5.0 is a big buff. Not to mention that all the energy tweaks made him basically capable of spamming his entire kit off of every CD so long as you use his passive.
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Hey Smash, IIRC our last ranked was Aug 25, was I mistaken and we're in the clear?
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United States47024 Posts
On September 07 2011 23:35 Southlight wrote:
My issues with hero balance is more relative. I have a tendency to believe that bullshit skills are bullshit and must be treated as such. Orianna's ult is bullshit, although I don't think she's as OP as some people make her out to be. It's got giant range, circumvents tenacity, and is essentially Annie's ult, which means she essentially becomes Annie 2, except with stronger utility and significantly better range.
I consider it a flaw that EVERY champ doesn't have a skill that "bullshit".
Every champ should, given great play and the right scenario, have the means to alter the flow of the game entirely. As it stands, there just aren't that many champion kits that are that game-changing.
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EPT
