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On September 07 2011 23:58 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 22:39 clickrush wrote:
I wonder how they could nerf lee. He was considered completely useless and then got minor tiny buffs and now he is the hottest shit ever? The only straight damage decrease I can imagine is mb a little scaling on his Q. I mean the guy has such low base stats compared to other bruisers. And the reasoning that he doesnt need as much farm is completely wrong. In terms of farm independance he is nothing near udyr for example. What other people saying about people being stupid is true, but also: Changes deployed in the April 5th hotfix Sonic Wave bonus attack damage scaling increased to 1.0 from 0.8 Resonating Strike bonus attack damage scaling inceased to 1.0 from 0.8 Tempest bonus attack damage scaling inceased to 1.0 from 0.6 Dragon's Rage bonus attack damage scaling inceased to 2.0 from 1.5 Flurry passive energy gain increased to 15 from 10 per hit He gained 1.3 bonus AD scaling on his full rotation. 3.7 -> 5.0 is a big buff. Not to mention that all the energy tweaks made him basically capable of spamming his entire kit off of every CD so long as you use his passive.
I think thats the key. Right now he has no energy restrictions on his utility, and his damage is really good. He doesnt need huge nerfs, riot should just pick one and hit it a bit.
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On September 07 2011 23:59 Southlight wrote:
Hey Smash, IIRC our last ranked was Aug 25, was I mistaken and we're in the clear?
how would I know any better than you? lol, lemme go check my records where I track every game of LoL I played :p.
idc either cause I'm definitely going to fire up a few solo queues on SmashGizmo between now and the end of the season if for nothing other than a morbid sense of curiosity about how bad new plat players are compared to hipster plat.
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On September 08 2011 00:00 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 23:35 Southlight wrote:
My issues with hero balance is more relative. I have a tendency to believe that bullshit skills are bullshit and must be treated as such. Orianna's ult is bullshit, although I don't think she's as OP as some people make her out to be. It's got giant range, circumvents tenacity, and is essentially Annie's ult, which means she essentially becomes Annie 2, except with stronger utility and significantly better range. I consider it a flaw that EVERY champ doesn't have a skill that "bullshit". Every champ should, given great play and the right scenario, have the means to alter the flow of the game entirely. As it stands, there just aren't that many champion kits that are that game-changing.
I think there're levels of bullshit.
Stuff like Zilean's ult is bullshit. But it's a nice bullshit. You rage, you tear at your hair, it wins games, but it's like okay. The rest of his skill is designed to supplement his ult, and between his ult and his bomb that's all he's got. So you can allow that bullshit.
Orianna should really have been designed like Sona and Zilean. They have a support (defensive) spell. They have an utterly bullshit ult.
But unlike the other two, Orianna has a bullshit two-hit combo too.
On September 08 2011 00:05 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 23:59 Southlight wrote:
Hey Smash, IIRC our last ranked was Aug 25, was I mistaken and we're in the clear? how would I know any better than you? lol, lemme go check my records where I track every game of LoL I played :p. idc either cause I'm definitely going to fire up a few solo queues on SmashGizmo between now and the end of the season if for nothing other than a morbid sense of curiosity about how bad new plat players are compared to hipster plat.
Nono, I know your last ranked was same day as me, I just dunno if that means we're decaying before or after next Tuesday x_X I'm too lazy to plaaaaaaaay. But if you wanna duo q whack me on skype or something I guess.
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That's exactly why I was saying to nerf the damage on dissoance and his passive. She has very very good utility so she can't have one of the fucking highest practical damage outputs for an AP carry.
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The problem with Lee Sin...
Look at all other energy heroes, they all have some pretty obvious weaknesses. Kennen doesn't deal too much damage for an AP hero and his only ranged skill is a skillshot, otherwise he needs to be melee. Akali is melee and her skill is low range and requires a melee hit for its full potential, ult requires stacks. Shen skills are pretty weak and his damage is low.
Lee Sin on the other hand, he's like Kennen in that he needs to land a skillshot but then he deals truckloads of damage and has no energy problems at all, Akali for instance can't even use E in battles because of energy problems but Lee Sin doesn't have that problem, Lee Sin also has some insane survivability and amazingly devastating comboes. His skillshot dependence is negated quite a bit with the fact that E makes it incredibly easy to land.
Ehh what I'm trying to say is that Lee Sin as an energy user has the skillset of a mana user
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Cripple is also WAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYY too strong. Like.... WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY too strong. I still don't understand why people don't talk about this one at all...
Cripple: Lee Sin cripples nearby enemies revealed by Tempest for 4 seconds, reducing their Movement and Attack Speed by (30/37.5/45/52.5/60)%. Movement and Attack Speed recover gradually over the duration.
CD: 10
Wither: Nasus ages his target over (5) seconds, initially slowing their Movement and Attack Speeds by (35)% and increasing to (38/41/44/47/50)% over the duration.
CD: 15
AoE, 67% of the CD, stronger slow, on top of costing nothing, coming on an AoE 1:1 AD ratio nuke. Yea, OK, that seems totally fair. Not to mention it makes 1v1 fighting him with any attack-based character fucking impossible.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 08 2011 00:22 Mogwai wrote:
Cripple is also WAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYY too strong. Like.... WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY too strong. I still don't understand why people don't talk about this one at all...
Cripple: Lee Sin cripples nearby enemies revealed by Tempest for 4 seconds, reducing their Movement and Attack Speed by (30/37.5/45/52.5/60)%. Movement and Attack Speed recover gradually over the duration.
CD: 10
Wither: Nasus ages his target over (5) seconds, initially slowing their Movement and Attack Speeds by (35)% and increasing to (38/41/44/47/50)% over the duration.
CD: 15
AoE, 67% of the CD, stronger slow, on top of costing nothing, coming on an AoE 1:1 AD ratio nuke. Yea, OK, that seems totally fair. Not to mention it makes 1v1 fighting him with any attack-based character fucking impossible.
I did mention Cripple several pages back.
Though you're intentionally choosing an awkward comparison. Nunu's Ice Blast is a much better one. Given that the MS/AS debuff and CD are more comparable, and it also does damage.
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On September 08 2011 00:22 Mogwai wrote:
AoE, 67% of the CD, stronger slow, on top of costing nothing, coming on an AoE 1:1 AD ratio nuke. Yea, OK, that seems totally fair. Not to mention it makes 1v1 fighting him with any attack-based character fucking impossible.
It's one of the reasons why he's so good top, you win most 1v1s with it.
Still think wither is stronger 1v1 because it gets stronger over time whereas cripple just gets weaker.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 08 2011 00:29 JackDino wrote:
It's one of the reasons why he's so good top, you win most 1v1s with it.
It's also why Fiddle, Nocturne, and GP are the only junglers really capable of fighting him in the jungle (Fiddle because he's not autoattack based, and Nocturne and GP because they have spellblock/cleanse skills).
On September 08 2011 00:06 Southlight wrote:
I think there're levels of bullshit.
Stuff like Zilean's ult is bullshit. But it's a nice bullshit. You rage, you tear at your hair, it wins games, but it's like okay. The rest of his skill is designed to supplement his ult, and between his ult and his bomb that's all he's got. So you can allow that bullshit.
Orianna should really have been designed like Sona and Zilean. They have a support (defensive) spell. They have an utterly bullshit ult.
But unlike the other two, Orianna has a bullshit two-hit combo too.
I don't see how Orianna and Zilean are really different levels of bullshit when both are permaban-level bullshit in high-level 5s.
It's just that Orianna's particular brand of bullshit happens to be better for solo queue.
EDIT: There's also the fact that we had a huge slew of strong AP champs that all got sequentially nerfed--Vladimir, Swain, Rumble, Ryze, Malzahar, Annie, TF, Nidalee,...
IMO Orianna only looks comparatively bullshit now because a lot of the equally bullshit stuff like TF ulti got nerfed. The question is why we (and Riot) have a problem with all champions being at that power level?
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On September 08 2011 00:24 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 00:22 Mogwai wrote:
Cripple is also WAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYY too strong. Like.... WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY too strong. I still don't understand why people don't talk about this one at all...
Cripple: Lee Sin cripples nearby enemies revealed by Tempest for 4 seconds, reducing their Movement and Attack Speed by (30/37.5/45/52.5/60)%. Movement and Attack Speed recover gradually over the duration.
CD: 10
Wither: Nasus ages his target over (5) seconds, initially slowing their Movement and Attack Speeds by (35)% and increasing to (38/41/44/47/50)% over the duration.
CD: 15
AoE, 67% of the CD, stronger slow, on top of costing nothing, coming on an AoE 1:1 AD ratio nuke. Yea, OK, that seems totally fair. Not to mention it makes 1v1 fighting him with any attack-based character fucking impossible. I did mention Cripple several pages back. Though you're intentionally choosing an awkward comparison. Nunu's Ice Blast is a much better one. Given that the MS/AS debuff and CD are more comparable, and it also does damage.
I'm not going to argue with you on this, I'll just say that I don't think either of those comparisons is less awkward than the other.
Doesn't matter, they both prove the same thing... Cripple's slow is unreasonably powerful.
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Cripple's slow is reasonably powerful, other slows should be buffed to be similar, not cripple being nerfed to be similar. Less nerfs more buffs = stronger (pun intended) overall gameplay.
Sidenote: does EE still work? I haven't been able to do it recently.
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I'd be happy with just a range reduction on his q.
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On September 08 2011 00:50 STS17 wrote:
Sidenote: does EE still work? I haven't been able to do it recently.
EE has not worked for upwards of 3-4 patches :D
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On September 08 2011 00:59 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 00:50 STS17 wrote:
Sidenote: does EE still work? I haven't been able to do it recently. EE has not worked for upwards of 3-4 patches :D
that would make sense, haven't played him in a while
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If you QQ-->EE someone you just used 160 energy and have only 40 left. Good lee sin players can circumvent it by doing things like waiting a bit on your Q and delaying your double E especially if you have phage/mallet but to say he has 0 energy problems is an overstatement.
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Zil's not really permaban... unless things have changed in the last couple weeks.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 08 2011 01:12 Southlight wrote:
Zil's not really permaban... unless things have changed in the last couple weeks.
As far as I could see, he was banned in all the games at MLG, and in some of the few scrims I've seen since then.
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Orianna wins matchups with BLUE.
In soloq, where ur jungler gonna hog that blue, fear is misplaced. In 5s when she gets that blue and outrange you?
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Most real match ever, loci making up new meta..... Those malph ults man, those malph ults. I was lol'ing so hard watching this game.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/mU0h5.png)
On September 08 2011 00:01 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 23:58 Mogwai wrote:+ Show Spoiler +What other people saying about people being stupid is true, but also:
Changes deployed in the April 5th hotfix
Sonic Wave bonus attack damage scaling increased to 1.0 from 0.8
Resonating Strike bonus attack damage scaling inceased to 1.0 from 0.8
Tempest bonus attack damage scaling inceased to 1.0 from 0.6
Dragon's Rage bonus attack damage scaling inceased to 2.0 from 1.5
Flurry passive energy gain increased to 15 from 10 per hit
He gained 1.3 bonus AD scaling on his full rotation. 3.7 -> 5.0 is a big buff. Not to mention that all the energy tweaks made him basically capable of spamming his entire kit off of every CD so long as you use his passive . I think thats the key. Right now he has no energy restrictions on his utility, and his damage is really good. He doesnt need huge nerfs, riot should just pick one and hit it a bit.
Yeah, I agree. I think a while back in this thread (or my lee thread) I suggested that increasing the CD on his Q and W by 1-2 seconds might have a reasonable effect on his huge mobility. Right now he flies around teamfights and does pretty much everything, which is one of the reasons he's so incredibly strong.
They should pick either his damage or his mobility/utility and nerf it a bit, if they nerf both aspects he'll drop down a tier or two IMO. I personally think his utility is the problem with him right now.
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edit: double post fail my bad
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EPT
