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United States47024 Posts
On September 07 2011 13:32 gtrsrs wrote:
Here's the thing - orianna and lee take a little finesse to play. They aren't AP sion 4 months ago hurr durr 6.0 AP ratio on a point and click stun. As such they have stronger kits because they are balanced around being harder to play. The problem has arisen that people are perfecting these champs. So now that their potentials are being reached we're seeing how stupid strong they are
It has nothing to do with how strong other champs are and everything to do with their design compensations
And they are fun. So why do we need to nerf them? Why can't stuff be brought back to this point?
We definitely passed a point somewhere through this long chain of nerfs where they were ok. Because if GP and Nocturne are slightly under Lee Sin now in the jungle, then rolling back some of their nerfs would put them on par or ahead of him. If Zilean takes the 2nd AP ban after Orianna, then she's certainly weaker than the old 20 sec ulti Zilean.
We passed a line somewhere where these fun finesse champs with absurd levels of game-changing utility was ok because it fit in the power curve. Somehow they're no longer OK. And if that's no longer the case, we need to buff everything back to that level. Because honestly if every champ were as fun and as potentially-gamebreaking as Orianna and Lee Sin, we'd have a damn good game.
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I feel like I get a lot more ragers in the 1800 range than I did back in the 1600-1700 range. So many people pitching a fit before the game even starts.
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On September 07 2011 13:39 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 13:32 gtrsrs wrote:
Here's the thing - orianna and lee take a little finesse to play. They aren't AP sion 4 months ago hurr durr 6.0 AP ratio on a point and click stun. As such they have stronger kits because they are balanced around being harder to play. The problem has arisen that people are perfecting these champs. So now that their potentials are being reached we're seeing how stupid strong they are
It has nothing to do with how strong other champs are and everything to do with their design compensations And they are fun. So why do we need to nerf them? Why can't stuff be brought back to this point? We definitely passed a point somewhere through this long chain of nerfs where they were ok. Because if GP and Nocturne are slightly under Lee Sin now in the jungle, then rolling back some of their nerfs would put them on par or ahead of him. If Zilean takes the 2nd AP ban after Orianna, then she's certainly weaker than the old 20 sec ulti Zilean. We passed a line somewhere where these fun finesse champs with absurd levels of game-changing utility was ok because it fit in the power curve. Somehow they're no longer OK. And if that's no longer the case, we need to buff everything back to that level. Because honestly if every champ were as fun and as potentially-gamebreaking as Orianna and Lee Sin, we'd have a damn good game.
Actually, I take my previous post back and completely agree with you.
I once asked a dota player why he thinks dota is fun. He said "because everything is stupidly OP"
But, yeah, if they can make every champ as fun and "OP" as Orianna and Lee it would be the best game ever.
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If every champion turns as powerful as Orianna I'm gonna have to pick up HoN or DotA2 or something. I remember playing games when running AoE comps were the metagame and everybody would die instantly because AoE ults were twice as big ^_^ It's just not fun when you're playing call of duty oh I saw you first so I won the game 
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Its essentially the same argument as old ezreal. None of us can really complain about anything that they choose to do with ori because, quite simply, none of us have ever played against anyone who can actually play her. Salce, jiji, and about 5 others are the only ones who actually make her op. So it doensnt matter what anyone but them and players their caliber say- if she is op, she is op.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 07 2011 13:46 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:If every champion turns as powerful as Orianna I'm gonna have to pick up HoN or DotA2 or something. I remember playing games when running AoE comps were the metagame and everybody would die instantly because AoE ults were twice as big ^_^ It's just not fun when you're playing call of duty oh I saw you first so I won the game
That would be the last thing you'd want to do. Both games are balanced around insanely high power curves. That's part of their appeal.
Like, we're talking support champions that can Trynd-ult allies on a 15 second CD.
EDIT: Oh, and of course AoE ultis that cover like half the screen is a given.
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Even bad Orianna's win games. You can screw up and suck all game, but as soon as you hit that money ultimate you've turned the game around. I guess Annie is very simliar, but at least Annie can't shield and slow you while she's CCing your whole team. Her utility with having absurd damage, cc, and a shield is also overpowered in my eyes. I view Lee Sin the exact same way basically except he has different strong points since he fills a different role. They have pretty much every advantage in the game for their niche and I think that's stupid.
People say these champions have high skill ceilings. Sure there's some thought process, but doing well isn't so challenging that the champion deserves to be overpowered.
I don't remember DotA being that bad although I never actually played in a serious league or anything. Of course, I'm also pretty bad at LoL so I'm not expecting to jump into one if I do play them ^_^
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Im with Yango. I want everything to be OP. Honestly, Riot's biggest problem right now is that they're homogenizing EVERYTHING. Every single champion is being nerfed/buffed/remade so that they are all so damn similar and unique aspects are gone. See Annie. See Kayle. See Invisibility.
Lee Sin is definitely strong, but he's not insta-win strong. Don't nerf Lee Sin. Buff other champs. It's very much like how SC2 is/was. Blizz just kept nerfing shit and making shit boring as opposed to BW and DotA where everything was batshit OP and that was what made the game fun. The balance direction of making everything OP so nothing is broken makes a better game than everything is shit so nothing is broken.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 07 2011 13:54 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Even bad Orianna's win games. You can screw up and suck all game, but as soon as you hit that money ultimate you've turned the game around. I guess Annie is very simliar, but at least Annie can't shield and slow you while she's CCing your whole team. Her utility with having absurd damage, cc, and a shield is also overpowered in my eyes. I view Lee Sin the exact same way basically except he has different strong points since he fills a different role. They have pretty much every advantage in the game for their niche and I think that's stupid.
That's the thing that makes a high-risk, high-reward game appealing. If everyone was ridiculously strong, then we'd have incredibly dynamic games because of how quickly the flow of the game can change. Think Starcraft. What parts make for the best moments for the spectators? The ridiculous scarab that kills 20 SCVs. The mine daebak that kills like 10 Dragoons. That perfect swarm placement that turns what looks like a lost fight into a huge win.
TBH you could argue that this is why you get these slow awkward lategame situations where no one really does anything in competitive games. Not that many champions have the kit that allow you to come back from the most ridiculous situations. If you give up ground, it's a steady slide to defeat, rather than a back-and-forth affair.
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So what do we do to bring Brand up to Orianna's level? He's clearly not the same ban-or-lose champ that Ori is in top level play, so clearly if we accept that Orianna is a good baseline he needs to get better. Thing is, right now he's mainly just damage (I mean yeah he has a pretty nasty stun if it connects, but it's still a skillshot and thus pretty inconsistent). Do you make it so he's like release Leblanc and can just flat-out kill you with not much you can do about it except staying at absolutely full HP? That might be fine for top-level play and might in that sense make LoL a better competitive game, but it also loses Riot a lot of players so it'll never happen (Riot hit Leblanc's damage pretty quickly because the community was decidedly unhappy with playing against her).
I think Riot's target power level seems pretty good. I can see the reasoning for Orianna getting hit even if it means she'll be a worse pick for someone of my skill than other champs, and it doesn't really bother me--she'll still be fun and effective in my games. Likewise I could see the reasoning for buffing Brand to bring him to Orianna's level, but that would turn me off from the game pretty fast. I would probably still watch the game sometimes--and maybe even have more fun doing so than I do now--but playing against champs that can just flat-out kill you if you're at all underfarmed is pretty awful imo.
I dunno, maybe my analysis here is wrong but I certainly don't want to see other casters (like Brand and Annie) who are already pretty strong but not Orianna-level get any better. Either that or you start giving crazy utility kits to every champ which could potentially be fun but would require a pretty large overhaul of the existing roster (i.e. isn't going to happen).
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I actually prefer the current Riot stance on balancing, i.e. balancing on a slightly lower level on the power curve than before, as it allows for longer skirmishes with more tactical decisions and greater clarity of the battle for viewers. Also, it's more forgiving for Australians with 200ms latency
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Brand is the top mid non-mord caster that's not on permaban right now, what's the argument here?
edit: arguable second to karth though
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There's nothing dumber than being 100-0'd by someone. There are already a number of champs that can do this without being exceptionally fed -- we do not need more of that.
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Bad spot for this. Moved.
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On September 07 2011 15:01 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Brand is the top mid non-mord caster that's not on permaban right now, what's the argument here?
edit: arguable second to karth though
Well from what I've heard, the top teams' perception of Orianna is that she's still well above Brand in power level. I'm fine with where Brand is right now--he does a ton of damage--but if the argument is "let's use Brand as our baseline" instead of "let's use Orianna as our baseline" I think that's a different thing altogether.
edit: There's of course the possibility that the top teams are wrong about how good Orianna is compared to other casters, of course ... I'm not presuming to pass my own judgment on the power level of specific champs because it simply doesn't matter much at my level unless something is outrageously out-of-line, so I'm just assuming they're not far off the mark.
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How is orianna hard to play? Explain. You q at them, ram your head into the keyboard, and then they die. I do not see the problem lol.
Really the hardest part of playing her is not hurting your head/damaging your keyboard too much.
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Yeah, I don't see what's super hard about it. It requires a little extra effort to keep track of your ball, but where she shines is in the whole zoning/kiting department. You can't engage into a choke vs Orianna because her ball will slow the whole team and ult anything squishy and you can't chase her because you eat damage/slows as she runs.
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On September 07 2011 13:47 Two_DoWn wrote:
Salce, jiji, and about 5 others are the only ones who actually make her op. So it doensnt matter what anyone but them and players their caliber say- if she is op, she is op.
HotshotGG's Orianna is better than Salce's imo.
So long as Orianna isn't nerfed so hard that she's no longer viable I'm okay with nerfing her. Would be nice to see her not be banned from every game ever so I can actually see her played more at competitive events.
I can also agree that while she's a bit more difficult than a lot of other mages I don't think she's so crazy hard that it justifies just how good she is.
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On September 07 2011 06:42 MoonBear wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2011 23:12 NightWalks wrote:Moonbear, why doesn't riot force eject people who are AFK at champ select and don't pick a champion? [...] @Moonbear and rest of TL to discuss : Do you think it's correct that when summoner DC's BOTH sides receive announcement ? Re Forcing AFK to quit at Champ Select: I remember there was a reason why it's not done, but I can't remember what that reason was. It was something to do with queues. It can be done though with a little bit of code. I think it was something to do with if someone had chosen a champion, expected the load screen then went off to the toilet and then re-queued and had queue pop while they were away. They do have alternative code stored away though. Re Both Teams have DC Announced: Coding can always be changed. The question is, what alternative do you suggest? This sort of decision would be Morello/Zileas level. So pretty senior. You'd have to give a really good reason. But if you can, they'd listen.
Well Morello/Zileas could ask themselves : how does game benefit from this function ? What are the benefits for each side when DC'd summoner gets announced ?
5 Player side : Push / farm safer , take objectives ( Dragon, Baron , Towers ) , force teamfights . Not to mention boost to morale .....
4 Player side : Play defensive close to base/ turrets . Give up objectives . Loss of morale -> QQ
What purpose global DC announcements serve currently ? As all it does atm is put 4 ppl team into even bigger disadvantage....
TL:DR make DC announcements only team sided . Also consider some new announcement like if player has been idle 2minutes , so you at least know you are possible 4x and adjust play stile.
Off topic comparison : Football game where commentator constantly reminds both teams that team's A goalkeeper is exousted . That really benefits the game .....
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EPT
