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Why does every thread that mentions LoL NEED to turn into a LoL vs HoN vs Dota2 thread? Seriously, cut it out.
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On August 17 2011 03:10 robertdinh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 00:01 bunnymuncher wrote:On August 16 2011 22:16 Yttrasil wrote:
Yup yup we can explain it with the Soccer vs Baseball analogy.
What is the most easy game to learn and has the most worldwide players and following, should be easy enough to figure out (soccer), which game is most complicated well that's baseball. The game that has the most audience is soccer and everyone knows the rules, it's basically free to play you just need a football and the sport has more money in it than baseball since more people watch it. Baseball on the other hand requires more knowledge to understand and also money to play, some people like to watch it and I admit the game is more hardcore in a sense because of how you practise, although I must admit I fall asleep when I try watching baseball.
Which one is which in this case you all surely understand and although baseball is by no means unpopular it has a smaller spread and less support. I admit it's stupid to argue which is the best sport as they both have their charms but saying baseball(hon) is better because it's more hardcore in a sense is plain wrong. I agree with this analogy, some games/sports are simple to play and therefore appeal to a wider variety of people. Quite simply CoD4 was known as the best CoD, but compared to blackops or MW2 it does not have the same amout of content to appeal to a wide audience. Therefore most people play mw2 or blackops because of its appeal, however that does not make it a better game. Justin Bieber has more fans than 2pac, does that make him better? LoL is a fun game, and people enjoy it, however it is a "casual" game, and therefore is easy to pick up, and has a low skill cap. My first 5 games of LoL i was playing with my friends who were level 30s (highest you can go), and i was still able to compete with them. Compared to starcraft, a bronze level player would have almsot no chance against someone in masters league. LoL is still a fun game, and if people enjoy it then they should play it, different games appeal to different people. Of course that's just my opinion, doesnt mean it's right ^^ Sorry for the wall of text. Cod1 is known as the best cod competitively. Cod4 in competition was newb. For the same reasons as the point you are trying to make about bieber and 2pac. LoL is easy to get into, hard to master. The majority of mastering it goes with putting insane time in to learn every nuance of every character so that you can play as and against them as efficiently as possible. Hanging with level 30s in a normal is great and all but you should never use that as an indication of how the top level competition is. I mean there are skillful things you can do micro wise in lol. There are things like scoot and shooting, twitch flashes, pre-emptively determining routes of escape and luring their ambush to make them waste time. These concepts sound easy and simple, but executing them consistently and efficiently isn't as easy as people think. LoL is much more of a team game than Dota is/was. Much more emphasis on working together and coordinating, and as these are team-based games in general, I don't know why anyone would want to go with the pub allstar oriented games (dota/hon) sure they CAN be played in organized 5v5 with teamwork involved, just that the potential level of teamwork can't measure up to what LoL could have. And to be fair even the top LoL teams haven't scratched the surface of what LoL can become. For the most part the top LoL players right now are kids who have been playing it a long time, know every detail, but there is a reason they've been playing LoL the longest, and that's cause they didn't have any obligations on a competitive level to any other game. Their teamwork simply wouldn't compare to say a top cs 1.6 team that decided to give LoL a shot.
I vehemently disagree with essentially your entire final paragraph. From the no teamwork in DotA, to the FPS teamwork carrying into MOBA teamwork(and the insinuation that because you weren't competitive in a game before the one you play now, you somehow lack competitive ability in your current game, as if people can't decide to step up their playing time and change attitude).
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On August 17 2011 03:25 red_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 03:10 robertdinh wrote:On August 17 2011 00:01 bunnymuncher wrote:On August 16 2011 22:16 Yttrasil wrote:
Yup yup we can explain it with the Soccer vs Baseball analogy.
What is the most easy game to learn and has the most worldwide players and following, should be easy enough to figure out (soccer), which game is most complicated well that's baseball. The game that has the most audience is soccer and everyone knows the rules, it's basically free to play you just need a football and the sport has more money in it than baseball since more people watch it. Baseball on the other hand requires more knowledge to understand and also money to play, some people like to watch it and I admit the game is more hardcore in a sense because of how you practise, although I must admit I fall asleep when I try watching baseball.
Which one is which in this case you all surely understand and although baseball is by no means unpopular it has a smaller spread and less support. I admit it's stupid to argue which is the best sport as they both have their charms but saying baseball(hon) is better because it's more hardcore in a sense is plain wrong. I agree with this analogy, some games/sports are simple to play and therefore appeal to a wider variety of people. Quite simply CoD4 was known as the best CoD, but compared to blackops or MW2 it does not have the same amout of content to appeal to a wide audience. Therefore most people play mw2 or blackops because of its appeal, however that does not make it a better game. Justin Bieber has more fans than 2pac, does that make him better? LoL is a fun game, and people enjoy it, however it is a "casual" game, and therefore is easy to pick up, and has a low skill cap. My first 5 games of LoL i was playing with my friends who were level 30s (highest you can go), and i was still able to compete with them. Compared to starcraft, a bronze level player would have almsot no chance against someone in masters league. LoL is still a fun game, and if people enjoy it then they should play it, different games appeal to different people. Of course that's just my opinion, doesnt mean it's right ^^ Sorry for the wall of text. Cod1 is known as the best cod competitively. Cod4 in competition was newb. For the same reasons as the point you are trying to make about bieber and 2pac. LoL is easy to get into, hard to master. The majority of mastering it goes with putting insane time in to learn every nuance of every character so that you can play as and against them as efficiently as possible. Hanging with level 30s in a normal is great and all but you should never use that as an indication of how the top level competition is. I mean there are skillful things you can do micro wise in lol. There are things like scoot and shooting, twitch flashes, pre-emptively determining routes of escape and luring their ambush to make them waste time. These concepts sound easy and simple, but executing them consistently and efficiently isn't as easy as people think. LoL is much more of a team game than Dota is/was. Much more emphasis on working together and coordinating, and as these are team-based games in general, I don't know why anyone would want to go with the pub allstar oriented games (dota/hon) sure they CAN be played in organized 5v5 with teamwork involved, just that the potential level of teamwork can't measure up to what LoL could have. And to be fair even the top LoL teams haven't scratched the surface of what LoL can become. For the most part the top LoL players right now are kids who have been playing it a long time, know every detail, but there is a reason they've been playing LoL the longest, and that's cause they didn't have any obligations on a competitive level to any other game. Their teamwork simply wouldn't compare to say a top cs 1.6 team that decided to give LoL a shot. I vehemently disagree with essentially your entire final paragraph. From the no teamwork in DotA, to the FPS teamwork carrying into MOBA teamwork(and the insinuation that because you weren't competitive in a game before the one you play now, you somehow lack competitive ability in your current game, as if people can't decide to step up their playing time and change attitude).
I don't mean to sound cocky or anything, but if you don't have intimate knowledge of top level fps teamwork it probably just isn't going to resonate with you.
Things like snap rotation, dropping everything on the fly for the greater good of the team etc, are all simple habit to top fps teams. I have seen a much lower level of teamwork in the competitive moba scene sorry.
Let's face it, mobas have to go through an evolution, and now that the other genres are suffering (there are no new great competitive fps games) there will naturally be great and seasoned gamers getting into the moba scene.
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League has a heavier emphasis on teamwork than dota. It is NOT because in dota "you can be god-mode fed carry trololol". Its because league champions are harder to kill in general. How does that equate to more teamwork? It breaks down to two scenarios:
1. The laning phase is safer in general. Towers hit much harder in early phases in League, the lane lengths are shorter, and 100%-0 combos are harder to do than in dota (and ofc the trololo flash). This means that in general a teammate's help is more necessary in acquiring kills/towers.
2. It means 5v5 teamfights happen more often and are a good couple seconds longer (and in moba teamfights, a second is a very long time). This necessitates a longer period of teamwork merely from the fact that you must fight for a longer amount of time. More spell coordination, more repositioning relative to each other is needed.
Tl;dr - League of legends require more teamwork not necessarily due to higher skill ceiling (a separate argument in itself), but merely by necessity due to champions being harder to kill.
edit for 5v5 clarification
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On August 17 2011 04:01 50caliber wrote:
League has a heavier emphasis on teamwork than dota. It is NOT because in dota "you can be god-mode fed carry trololol". Its because league champions are harder to kill in general. How does that equate to more teamwork? It breaks down to two scenarios:
1. The laning phase is safer in general. Towers hit much harder in early phases in League, the lane lengths are shorter, and 100%-0 combos are harder to do than in dota (and ofc the trololo flash). This means that in general a teammate's help is more necessary in acquiring kills/towers.
2. It means teamfights are a good couple seconds longer, NOT including the time where a winner is clearly decided and one team is in full retreat (and in moba teamfights, a second is a very long time). This necessitates a longer period of teamwork merely from the fact that you must fight for a longer amount of time. More spell coordination, more repositioning relative to each other is needed.
Tl;dr - League of legends require more teamwork not necessarily due to higher skill ceiling (a separate argument in itself), but merely by necessity due to champions being harder to kill.
I agree, but it is also because in dota you can be godmode fed carry.
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Does anyone know when season 2 starts? and dominion comes out
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S2 should be mid-September, Dominion late-August.
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On August 17 2011 03:31 robertdinh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 03:25 red_ wrote:On August 17 2011 03:10 robertdinh wrote:On August 17 2011 00:01 bunnymuncher wrote:On August 16 2011 22:16 Yttrasil wrote:
Yup yup we can explain it with the Soccer vs Baseball analogy.
What is the most easy game to learn and has the most worldwide players and following, should be easy enough to figure out (soccer), which game is most complicated well that's baseball. The game that has the most audience is soccer and everyone knows the rules, it's basically free to play you just need a football and the sport has more money in it than baseball since more people watch it. Baseball on the other hand requires more knowledge to understand and also money to play, some people like to watch it and I admit the game is more hardcore in a sense because of how you practise, although I must admit I fall asleep when I try watching baseball.
Which one is which in this case you all surely understand and although baseball is by no means unpopular it has a smaller spread and less support. I admit it's stupid to argue which is the best sport as they both have their charms but saying baseball(hon) is better because it's more hardcore in a sense is plain wrong. I agree with this analogy, some games/sports are simple to play and therefore appeal to a wider variety of people. Quite simply CoD4 was known as the best CoD, but compared to blackops or MW2 it does not have the same amout of content to appeal to a wide audience. Therefore most people play mw2 or blackops because of its appeal, however that does not make it a better game. Justin Bieber has more fans than 2pac, does that make him better? LoL is a fun game, and people enjoy it, however it is a "casual" game, and therefore is easy to pick up, and has a low skill cap. My first 5 games of LoL i was playing with my friends who were level 30s (highest you can go), and i was still able to compete with them. Compared to starcraft, a bronze level player would have almsot no chance against someone in masters league. LoL is still a fun game, and if people enjoy it then they should play it, different games appeal to different people. Of course that's just my opinion, doesnt mean it's right ^^ Sorry for the wall of text. Cod1 is known as the best cod competitively. Cod4 in competition was newb. For the same reasons as the point you are trying to make about bieber and 2pac. LoL is easy to get into, hard to master. The majority of mastering it goes with putting insane time in to learn every nuance of every character so that you can play as and against them as efficiently as possible. Hanging with level 30s in a normal is great and all but you should never use that as an indication of how the top level competition is. I mean there are skillful things you can do micro wise in lol. There are things like scoot and shooting, twitch flashes, pre-emptively determining routes of escape and luring their ambush to make them waste time. These concepts sound easy and simple, but executing them consistently and efficiently isn't as easy as people think. LoL is much more of a team game than Dota is/was. Much more emphasis on working together and coordinating, and as these are team-based games in general, I don't know why anyone would want to go with the pub allstar oriented games (dota/hon) sure they CAN be played in organized 5v5 with teamwork involved, just that the potential level of teamwork can't measure up to what LoL could have. And to be fair even the top LoL teams haven't scratched the surface of what LoL can become. For the most part the top LoL players right now are kids who have been playing it a long time, know every detail, but there is a reason they've been playing LoL the longest, and that's cause they didn't have any obligations on a competitive level to any other game. Their teamwork simply wouldn't compare to say a top cs 1.6 team that decided to give LoL a shot. I vehemently disagree with essentially your entire final paragraph. From the no teamwork in DotA, to the FPS teamwork carrying into MOBA teamwork(and the insinuation that because you weren't competitive in a game before the one you play now, you somehow lack competitive ability in your current game, as if people can't decide to step up their playing time and change attitude). I don't mean to sound cocky or anything, but if you don't have intimate knowledge of top level fps teamwork it probably just isn't going to resonate with you. Things like snap rotation, dropping everything on the fly for the greater good of the team etc, are all simple habit to top fps teams. I have seen a much lower level of teamwork in the competitive moba scene sorry. Let's face it, mobas have to go through an evolution, and now that the other genres are suffering (there are no new great competitive fps games) there will naturally be great and seasoned gamers getting into the moba scene.
I've played at the top level in a team based FPS(Enemy Territory), won CAL-i titles, competed at multiple Quakecons, and have continued to keep very active communication with people that have stayed with the FPS genre and played their games at the top level as well; I am well aware of the teamwork requirements of the genre. I also have kept myself informed of the Chinese DotA scene and am aware of their gameplay, and to brush off their level of teamplay and decision making is quite simply ignorant.
You're attempting to compare game elements from one genre to another as a basis for your evaluation of their play, and that doesn't work. Your premise is as flawed as your conclusions are wrong(in fact, you not noticing things like quick lane rotations and map movement in response to enemy decisions, and 'sacrifice' for the greater good, over the course of a competitive moba game, strikes me as a giant lack of knowledge of the game on your part to recognize such things happening as they are incredibly influential to winning).
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On August 17 2011 04:36 red_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 03:31 robertdinh wrote:On August 17 2011 03:25 red_ wrote:On August 17 2011 03:10 robertdinh wrote:On August 17 2011 00:01 bunnymuncher wrote:On August 16 2011 22:16 Yttrasil wrote:
Yup yup we can explain it with the Soccer vs Baseball analogy.
What is the most easy game to learn and has the most worldwide players and following, should be easy enough to figure out (soccer), which game is most complicated well that's baseball. The game that has the most audience is soccer and everyone knows the rules, it's basically free to play you just need a football and the sport has more money in it than baseball since more people watch it. Baseball on the other hand requires more knowledge to understand and also money to play, some people like to watch it and I admit the game is more hardcore in a sense because of how you practise, although I must admit I fall asleep when I try watching baseball.
Which one is which in this case you all surely understand and although baseball is by no means unpopular it has a smaller spread and less support. I admit it's stupid to argue which is the best sport as they both have their charms but saying baseball(hon) is better because it's more hardcore in a sense is plain wrong. I agree with this analogy, some games/sports are simple to play and therefore appeal to a wider variety of people. Quite simply CoD4 was known as the best CoD, but compared to blackops or MW2 it does not have the same amout of content to appeal to a wide audience. Therefore most people play mw2 or blackops because of its appeal, however that does not make it a better game. Justin Bieber has more fans than 2pac, does that make him better? LoL is a fun game, and people enjoy it, however it is a "casual" game, and therefore is easy to pick up, and has a low skill cap. My first 5 games of LoL i was playing with my friends who were level 30s (highest you can go), and i was still able to compete with them. Compared to starcraft, a bronze level player would have almsot no chance against someone in masters league. LoL is still a fun game, and if people enjoy it then they should play it, different games appeal to different people. Of course that's just my opinion, doesnt mean it's right ^^ Sorry for the wall of text. Cod1 is known as the best cod competitively. Cod4 in competition was newb. For the same reasons as the point you are trying to make about bieber and 2pac. LoL is easy to get into, hard to master. The majority of mastering it goes with putting insane time in to learn every nuance of every character so that you can play as and against them as efficiently as possible. Hanging with level 30s in a normal is great and all but you should never use that as an indication of how the top level competition is. I mean there are skillful things you can do micro wise in lol. There are things like scoot and shooting, twitch flashes, pre-emptively determining routes of escape and luring their ambush to make them waste time. These concepts sound easy and simple, but executing them consistently and efficiently isn't as easy as people think. LoL is much more of a team game than Dota is/was. Much more emphasis on working together and coordinating, and as these are team-based games in general, I don't know why anyone would want to go with the pub allstar oriented games (dota/hon) sure they CAN be played in organized 5v5 with teamwork involved, just that the potential level of teamwork can't measure up to what LoL could have. And to be fair even the top LoL teams haven't scratched the surface of what LoL can become. For the most part the top LoL players right now are kids who have been playing it a long time, know every detail, but there is a reason they've been playing LoL the longest, and that's cause they didn't have any obligations on a competitive level to any other game. Their teamwork simply wouldn't compare to say a top cs 1.6 team that decided to give LoL a shot. I vehemently disagree with essentially your entire final paragraph. From the no teamwork in DotA, to the FPS teamwork carrying into MOBA teamwork(and the insinuation that because you weren't competitive in a game before the one you play now, you somehow lack competitive ability in your current game, as if people can't decide to step up their playing time and change attitude). I don't mean to sound cocky or anything, but if you don't have intimate knowledge of top level fps teamwork it probably just isn't going to resonate with you. Things like snap rotation, dropping everything on the fly for the greater good of the team etc, are all simple habit to top fps teams. I have seen a much lower level of teamwork in the competitive moba scene sorry. Let's face it, mobas have to go through an evolution, and now that the other genres are suffering (there are no new great competitive fps games) there will naturally be great and seasoned gamers getting into the moba scene. I've played at the top level in a team based FPS(Enemy Territory), won CAL-i titles, competed at multiple Quakecons, and have continued to keep very active communication with people that have stayed with the FPS genre and played their games at the top level as well; I am well aware of the teamwork requirements of the genre. I also have kept myself informed of the Chinese DotA scene and am aware of their gameplay, and to brush off their level of teamplay and decision making is quite simply ignorant. You're attempting to compare game elements from one genre to another as a basis for your evaluation of their play, and that doesn't work. Your premise is as flawed as your conclusions are wrong(in fact, you not noticing things like quick lane rotations and map movement in response to enemy decisions, and 'sacrifice' for the greater good, over the course of a competitive moba game, strikes me as a giant lack of knowledge of the game on your part to recognize such things happening as they are incredibly influential to winning).
Sorry, I am comparing teamwork elements not the genre differences in game elements, you seem to have failed to understand that.
I never said I didn't notice those same elements in mobas, I actually specifically pointed out that because they exist in mobas, people with a strong background in those team elements will excel there as well. I am saying that because mobas didn't originally appeal to the top level gamers from other genres, their development was stunted, now that the good players from other games come over, who have a stronger emphasis on teamwork, naturally they will help the team aspect evolve.
And I am sorry that you can not see how far mobas still have yet to develop as far as teamwork goes, I guess you just don't see things at the same level as some of the more seasoned gamers.
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On August 17 2011 04:01 50caliber wrote:
League has a heavier emphasis on teamwork than dota. It is NOT because in dota "you can be god-mode fed carry trololol". Its because league champions are harder to kill in general. How does that equate to more teamwork? It breaks down to two scenarios:
1. The laning phase is safer in general. Towers hit much harder in early phases in League, the lane lengths are shorter, and 100%-0 combos are harder to do than in dota (and ofc the trololo flash). This means that in general a teammate's help is more necessary in acquiring kills/towers.
2. It means 5v5 teamfights happen more often and are a good couple seconds longer (and in moba teamfights, a second is a very long time). This necessitates a longer period of teamwork merely from the fact that you must fight for a longer amount of time. More spell coordination, more repositioning relative to each other is needed.
Tl;dr - League of legends require more teamwork not necessarily due to higher skill ceiling (a separate argument in itself), but merely by necessity due to champions being harder to kill.
edit for 5v5 clarification
I disagree, considering we're talking about(at least I think we are) the top competitive level, there is no more of an emphasis on team work in LoL than DotA, it's just as integral in both games at the top level, the whole solo carry thing only really makes a huge difference in pubs, in competitive games the carry needs his team there to survive.
I honestly don't think teamfights happen more often in LoL at all, and if they do, they are pretty unproductive as kill counts are low as fuck. Fighting longer doesn't mean a whole lot, it's just that champions take longer to kill, you're basically doing the same shit. Aso, I don't see how there is more spell coordination and how more "repositioning relative to each other is needed", I think that's pretty equal in both games.
Also, the ease of acquiring a tower teleport in DotA makes it easier to get into the fight from another lane, this basically means that if you're not super strong and try to solo someone, they can have help there in a second, and running around doesn't really happen in either game at the end because dying royally fucks you over too much for it to be worth the risk.
TL;DR - Both games take equal amounts of teamwork at the highest level of play, in pubs and low level games, sure, the carries carry harder in DotA, in higher level games, not so much. Also,
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On August 17 2011 06:21 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 04:01 50caliber wrote:
League has a heavier emphasis on teamwork than dota. It is NOT because in dota "you can be god-mode fed carry trololol". Its because league champions are harder to kill in general. How does that equate to more teamwork? It breaks down to two scenarios:
1. The laning phase is safer in general. Towers hit much harder in early phases in League, the lane lengths are shorter, and 100%-0 combos are harder to do than in dota (and ofc the trololo flash). This means that in general a teammate's help is more necessary in acquiring kills/towers.
2. It means 5v5 teamfights happen more often and are a good couple seconds longer (and in moba teamfights, a second is a very long time). This necessitates a longer period of teamwork merely from the fact that you must fight for a longer amount of time. More spell coordination, more repositioning relative to each other is needed.
Tl;dr - League of legends require more teamwork not necessarily due to higher skill ceiling (a separate argument in itself), but merely by necessity due to champions being harder to kill.
edit for 5v5 clarification I disagree, considering we're talking about(at least I think we are) the top competitive level, there is no more of an emphasis on team work in LoL than DotA, it's just as integral in both games at the top level, the whole solo carry thing only really makes a huge difference in pubs, in competitive games the carry needs his team there to survive. I honestly don't think teamfights happen more often in LoL at all, and if they do, they are pretty unproductive as kill counts are low as fuck. Fighting longer doesn't mean a whole lot, it's just that champions take longer to kill, you're basically doing the same shit. Aso, I don't see how there is more spell coordination and how more "repositioning relative to each other is needed", I think that's pretty equal in both games. Also, the ease of acquiring a tower teleport in DotA makes it easier to get into the fight from another lane, this basically means that if you're not super strong and try to solo someone, they can have help there in a second, and running around doesn't really happen in either game at the end because dying royally fucks you over too much for it to be worth the risk. TL;DR - Both games take equal amounts of teamwork at the highest level of play, in pubs and low level games, sure, the carries carry harder in DotA, in higher level games, not so much. Also,
It's shortsighted not to understand how fights lasting longer requires more teamwork. It's like comparing s6 wow arena to s8. When fights are over in the blink of an eye, obviously you do not need to sustain as much coordination for as long a time as when they are over in 2 blinks of an eye.
I've watched top level of both and it's plainly obvious to me that dota gives the individual more power and LoL gives the team as a whole more power in impacting the match. Yea dota requires some teamwork, but you can still do a lot more on your own than you can in LoL.
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On August 17 2011 06:24 robertdinh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 06:21 Mordiford wrote:On August 17 2011 04:01 50caliber wrote:
League has a heavier emphasis on teamwork than dota. It is NOT because in dota "you can be god-mode fed carry trololol". Its because league champions are harder to kill in general. How does that equate to more teamwork? It breaks down to two scenarios:
1. The laning phase is safer in general. Towers hit much harder in early phases in League, the lane lengths are shorter, and 100%-0 combos are harder to do than in dota (and ofc the trololo flash). This means that in general a teammate's help is more necessary in acquiring kills/towers.
2. It means 5v5 teamfights happen more often and are a good couple seconds longer (and in moba teamfights, a second is a very long time). This necessitates a longer period of teamwork merely from the fact that you must fight for a longer amount of time. More spell coordination, more repositioning relative to each other is needed.
Tl;dr - League of legends require more teamwork not necessarily due to higher skill ceiling (a separate argument in itself), but merely by necessity due to champions being harder to kill.
edit for 5v5 clarification I disagree, considering we're talking about(at least I think we are) the top competitive level, there is no more of an emphasis on team work in LoL than DotA, it's just as integral in both games at the top level, the whole solo carry thing only really makes a huge difference in pubs, in competitive games the carry needs his team there to survive. I honestly don't think teamfights happen more often in LoL at all, and if they do, they are pretty unproductive as kill counts are low as fuck. Fighting longer doesn't mean a whole lot, it's just that champions take longer to kill, you're basically doing the same shit. Aso, I don't see how there is more spell coordination and how more "repositioning relative to each other is needed", I think that's pretty equal in both games. Also, the ease of acquiring a tower teleport in DotA makes it easier to get into the fight from another lane, this basically means that if you're not super strong and try to solo someone, they can have help there in a second, and running around doesn't really happen in either game at the end because dying royally fucks you over too much for it to be worth the risk. TL;DR - Both games take equal amounts of teamwork at the highest level of play, in pubs and low level games, sure, the carries carry harder in DotA, in higher level games, not so much. Also, It's shortsighted not to understand how fights lasting longer requires more teamwork. It's like comparing s6 wow arena to s8. When fights are over in the blink of an eye, obviously you do not need to sustain as much coordination for as long a time as when they are over in 2 blinks of an eye. I've watched top level of both and it's plainly obvious to me that dota gives the individual more power and LoL gives the team as a whole more power in impacting the match. Yea dota requires some teamwork, but you can still do a lot more on your own than you can in LoL.
A difference in lengths of fights simply shifts the amount of coordination/decision making along a pre-during-post fight timeline. Just because a team fight lasts longer on average doesn't inherently mean the coordination put into a fight timeline suddenly outweighs one that lasts for a shorter amount of time.
And although DotA may give more power to an individual [from this, it seems that you're acting as if you pick a carry and that person is guaranteed success which is wrong], the only reason that individual may have power is because of the team creating opportunities and pushing forward options to guide the game into a favorable situation.
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On August 17 2011 06:40 Shinbi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 06:24 robertdinh wrote:On August 17 2011 06:21 Mordiford wrote:On August 17 2011 04:01 50caliber wrote:
League has a heavier emphasis on teamwork than dota. It is NOT because in dota "you can be god-mode fed carry trololol". Its because league champions are harder to kill in general. How does that equate to more teamwork? It breaks down to two scenarios:
1. The laning phase is safer in general. Towers hit much harder in early phases in League, the lane lengths are shorter, and 100%-0 combos are harder to do than in dota (and ofc the trololo flash). This means that in general a teammate's help is more necessary in acquiring kills/towers.
2. It means 5v5 teamfights happen more often and are a good couple seconds longer (and in moba teamfights, a second is a very long time). This necessitates a longer period of teamwork merely from the fact that you must fight for a longer amount of time. More spell coordination, more repositioning relative to each other is needed.
Tl;dr - League of legends require more teamwork not necessarily due to higher skill ceiling (a separate argument in itself), but merely by necessity due to champions being harder to kill.
edit for 5v5 clarification I disagree, considering we're talking about(at least I think we are) the top competitive level, there is no more of an emphasis on team work in LoL than DotA, it's just as integral in both games at the top level, the whole solo carry thing only really makes a huge difference in pubs, in competitive games the carry needs his team there to survive. I honestly don't think teamfights happen more often in LoL at all, and if they do, they are pretty unproductive as kill counts are low as fuck. Fighting longer doesn't mean a whole lot, it's just that champions take longer to kill, you're basically doing the same shit. Aso, I don't see how there is more spell coordination and how more "repositioning relative to each other is needed", I think that's pretty equal in both games. Also, the ease of acquiring a tower teleport in DotA makes it easier to get into the fight from another lane, this basically means that if you're not super strong and try to solo someone, they can have help there in a second, and running around doesn't really happen in either game at the end because dying royally fucks you over too much for it to be worth the risk. TL;DR - Both games take equal amounts of teamwork at the highest level of play, in pubs and low level games, sure, the carries carry harder in DotA, in higher level games, not so much. Also, It's shortsighted not to understand how fights lasting longer requires more teamwork. It's like comparing s6 wow arena to s8. When fights are over in the blink of an eye, obviously you do not need to sustain as much coordination for as long a time as when they are over in 2 blinks of an eye. I've watched top level of both and it's plainly obvious to me that dota gives the individual more power and LoL gives the team as a whole more power in impacting the match. Yea dota requires some teamwork, but you can still do a lot more on your own than you can in LoL. A difference in lengths of fights simply shifts the amount of coordination/decision making along a pre-during-post fight timeline. Just because a team fight lasts longer on average doesn't inherently mean the coordination put into a fight timeline suddenly outweighs one that lasts for a shorter amount of time. And although DotA may give more power to an individual [from this, it seems that you're acting as if you pick a carry and that person is guaranteed success which is wrong], the only reason that individual may have power is because of the team creating opportunities and pushing forward options to guide the game into a favorable situation.
You're right, it doesn't inherently mean it outweighs it, but in this case it does, because every second of a LoL fight requires just as much attention to detail as dota, and can be just as gamechanging as far as the outcome of the fight, and yet they have to maintain that level of attention and coordination for a longer period of time.
Let's put it this way, when you watch LoL, you watch how every player is contributing, each one of them is vital.
When you watch dota, you sorta watch how every player is contributing, but you are mainly looking at the teams allstars.
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On August 17 2011 06:42 robertdinh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 06:40 Shinbi wrote:On August 17 2011 06:24 robertdinh wrote:On August 17 2011 06:21 Mordiford wrote:On August 17 2011 04:01 50caliber wrote:
League has a heavier emphasis on teamwork than dota. It is NOT because in dota "you can be god-mode fed carry trololol". Its because league champions are harder to kill in general. How does that equate to more teamwork? It breaks down to two scenarios:
1. The laning phase is safer in general. Towers hit much harder in early phases in League, the lane lengths are shorter, and 100%-0 combos are harder to do than in dota (and ofc the trololo flash). This means that in general a teammate's help is more necessary in acquiring kills/towers.
2. It means 5v5 teamfights happen more often and are a good couple seconds longer (and in moba teamfights, a second is a very long time). This necessitates a longer period of teamwork merely from the fact that you must fight for a longer amount of time. More spell coordination, more repositioning relative to each other is needed.
Tl;dr - League of legends require more teamwork not necessarily due to higher skill ceiling (a separate argument in itself), but merely by necessity due to champions being harder to kill.
edit for 5v5 clarification I disagree, considering we're talking about(at least I think we are) the top competitive level, there is no more of an emphasis on team work in LoL than DotA, it's just as integral in both games at the top level, the whole solo carry thing only really makes a huge difference in pubs, in competitive games the carry needs his team there to survive. I honestly don't think teamfights happen more often in LoL at all, and if they do, they are pretty unproductive as kill counts are low as fuck. Fighting longer doesn't mean a whole lot, it's just that champions take longer to kill, you're basically doing the same shit. Aso, I don't see how there is more spell coordination and how more "repositioning relative to each other is needed", I think that's pretty equal in both games. Also, the ease of acquiring a tower teleport in DotA makes it easier to get into the fight from another lane, this basically means that if you're not super strong and try to solo someone, they can have help there in a second, and running around doesn't really happen in either game at the end because dying royally fucks you over too much for it to be worth the risk. TL;DR - Both games take equal amounts of teamwork at the highest level of play, in pubs and low level games, sure, the carries carry harder in DotA, in higher level games, not so much. Also, It's shortsighted not to understand how fights lasting longer requires more teamwork. It's like comparing s6 wow arena to s8. When fights are over in the blink of an eye, obviously you do not need to sustain as much coordination for as long a time as when they are over in 2 blinks of an eye. I've watched top level of both and it's plainly obvious to me that dota gives the individual more power and LoL gives the team as a whole more power in impacting the match. Yea dota requires some teamwork, but you can still do a lot more on your own than you can in LoL. A difference in lengths of fights simply shifts the amount of coordination/decision making along a pre-during-post fight timeline. Just because a team fight lasts longer on average doesn't inherently mean the coordination put into a fight timeline suddenly outweighs one that lasts for a shorter amount of time. And although DotA may give more power to an individual [from this, it seems that you're acting as if you pick a carry and that person is guaranteed success which is wrong], the only reason that individual may have power is because of the team creating opportunities and pushing forward options to guide the game into a favorable situation. You're right, it doesn't inherently mean it outweighs it, but in this case it does, because every second of a LoL fight requires just as much attention to detail as dota, and can be just as gamechanging as far as the outcome of the fight, and yet they have to maintain that level of attention and coordination for a longer period of time. Let's put it this way, when you watch LoL, you watch how every player is contributing, each one of them is vital. When you watch dota, you sorta watch how every player is contributing, but you are mainly looking at the teams allstars.
I disagree, the allstar is only as good as the rest of his team. This is true for both games, every player matters.
Also, I don't think every second can be just as important as every second in DotA in regards to longer teamfights, when you have to do a ton in a shorter amount of time, you're doing more in that time frame, it's a lot easier to fuck up and die in a second if you really want to compare survivability. Also, let's not forget "Flash, aaaah savior of the universe!"
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On August 17 2011 06:51 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 06:42 robertdinh wrote:On August 17 2011 06:40 Shinbi wrote:On August 17 2011 06:24 robertdinh wrote:On August 17 2011 06:21 Mordiford wrote:On August 17 2011 04:01 50caliber wrote:
League has a heavier emphasis on teamwork than dota. It is NOT because in dota "you can be god-mode fed carry trololol". Its because league champions are harder to kill in general. How does that equate to more teamwork? It breaks down to two scenarios:
1. The laning phase is safer in general. Towers hit much harder in early phases in League, the lane lengths are shorter, and 100%-0 combos are harder to do than in dota (and ofc the trololo flash). This means that in general a teammate's help is more necessary in acquiring kills/towers.
2. It means 5v5 teamfights happen more often and are a good couple seconds longer (and in moba teamfights, a second is a very long time). This necessitates a longer period of teamwork merely from the fact that you must fight for a longer amount of time. More spell coordination, more repositioning relative to each other is needed.
Tl;dr - League of legends require more teamwork not necessarily due to higher skill ceiling (a separate argument in itself), but merely by necessity due to champions being harder to kill.
edit for 5v5 clarification I disagree, considering we're talking about(at least I think we are) the top competitive level, there is no more of an emphasis on team work in LoL than DotA, it's just as integral in both games at the top level, the whole solo carry thing only really makes a huge difference in pubs, in competitive games the carry needs his team there to survive. I honestly don't think teamfights happen more often in LoL at all, and if they do, they are pretty unproductive as kill counts are low as fuck. Fighting longer doesn't mean a whole lot, it's just that champions take longer to kill, you're basically doing the same shit. Aso, I don't see how there is more spell coordination and how more "repositioning relative to each other is needed", I think that's pretty equal in both games. Also, the ease of acquiring a tower teleport in DotA makes it easier to get into the fight from another lane, this basically means that if you're not super strong and try to solo someone, they can have help there in a second, and running around doesn't really happen in either game at the end because dying royally fucks you over too much for it to be worth the risk. TL;DR - Both games take equal amounts of teamwork at the highest level of play, in pubs and low level games, sure, the carries carry harder in DotA, in higher level games, not so much. Also, It's shortsighted not to understand how fights lasting longer requires more teamwork. It's like comparing s6 wow arena to s8. When fights are over in the blink of an eye, obviously you do not need to sustain as much coordination for as long a time as when they are over in 2 blinks of an eye. I've watched top level of both and it's plainly obvious to me that dota gives the individual more power and LoL gives the team as a whole more power in impacting the match. Yea dota requires some teamwork, but you can still do a lot more on your own than you can in LoL. A difference in lengths of fights simply shifts the amount of coordination/decision making along a pre-during-post fight timeline. Just because a team fight lasts longer on average doesn't inherently mean the coordination put into a fight timeline suddenly outweighs one that lasts for a shorter amount of time. And although DotA may give more power to an individual [from this, it seems that you're acting as if you pick a carry and that person is guaranteed success which is wrong], the only reason that individual may have power is because of the team creating opportunities and pushing forward options to guide the game into a favorable situation. You're right, it doesn't inherently mean it outweighs it, but in this case it does, because every second of a LoL fight requires just as much attention to detail as dota, and can be just as gamechanging as far as the outcome of the fight, and yet they have to maintain that level of attention and coordination for a longer period of time. Let's put it this way, when you watch LoL, you watch how every player is contributing, each one of them is vital. When you watch dota, you sorta watch how every player is contributing, but you are mainly looking at the teams allstars. I disagree, the allstar is only as good as the rest of his team. This is true for both games, every player matters. Also, I don't think every second can be just as important as every second in DotA in regards to longer teamfights, when you have to do a ton in a shorter amount of time, you're doing more in that time frame, it's a lot easier to fuck up and die in a second if you really want to compare survivability. Also, let's not forget "Flash, aaaah savior of the universe!"
Sure but you assume the workloads are equal in team fights, because you do not want to acknowledge the fact that LoL actually is more team oriented and has a larger workload for a larger amount of time. As far as team based fights go.
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On August 17 2011 06:54 robertdinh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 06:51 Mordiford wrote:On August 17 2011 06:42 robertdinh wrote:On August 17 2011 06:40 Shinbi wrote:On August 17 2011 06:24 robertdinh wrote:On August 17 2011 06:21 Mordiford wrote:On August 17 2011 04:01 50caliber wrote:
League has a heavier emphasis on teamwork than dota. It is NOT because in dota "you can be god-mode fed carry trololol". Its because league champions are harder to kill in general. How does that equate to more teamwork? It breaks down to two scenarios:
1. The laning phase is safer in general. Towers hit much harder in early phases in League, the lane lengths are shorter, and 100%-0 combos are harder to do than in dota (and ofc the trololo flash). This means that in general a teammate's help is more necessary in acquiring kills/towers.
2. It means 5v5 teamfights happen more often and are a good couple seconds longer (and in moba teamfights, a second is a very long time). This necessitates a longer period of teamwork merely from the fact that you must fight for a longer amount of time. More spell coordination, more repositioning relative to each other is needed.
Tl;dr - League of legends require more teamwork not necessarily due to higher skill ceiling (a separate argument in itself), but merely by necessity due to champions being harder to kill.
edit for 5v5 clarification I disagree, considering we're talking about(at least I think we are) the top competitive level, there is no more of an emphasis on team work in LoL than DotA, it's just as integral in both games at the top level, the whole solo carry thing only really makes a huge difference in pubs, in competitive games the carry needs his team there to survive. I honestly don't think teamfights happen more often in LoL at all, and if they do, they are pretty unproductive as kill counts are low as fuck. Fighting longer doesn't mean a whole lot, it's just that champions take longer to kill, you're basically doing the same shit. Aso, I don't see how there is more spell coordination and how more "repositioning relative to each other is needed", I think that's pretty equal in both games. Also, the ease of acquiring a tower teleport in DotA makes it easier to get into the fight from another lane, this basically means that if you're not super strong and try to solo someone, they can have help there in a second, and running around doesn't really happen in either game at the end because dying royally fucks you over too much for it to be worth the risk. TL;DR - Both games take equal amounts of teamwork at the highest level of play, in pubs and low level games, sure, the carries carry harder in DotA, in higher level games, not so much. Also, It's shortsighted not to understand how fights lasting longer requires more teamwork. It's like comparing s6 wow arena to s8. When fights are over in the blink of an eye, obviously you do not need to sustain as much coordination for as long a time as when they are over in 2 blinks of an eye. I've watched top level of both and it's plainly obvious to me that dota gives the individual more power and LoL gives the team as a whole more power in impacting the match. Yea dota requires some teamwork, but you can still do a lot more on your own than you can in LoL. A difference in lengths of fights simply shifts the amount of coordination/decision making along a pre-during-post fight timeline. Just because a team fight lasts longer on average doesn't inherently mean the coordination put into a fight timeline suddenly outweighs one that lasts for a shorter amount of time. And although DotA may give more power to an individual [from this, it seems that you're acting as if you pick a carry and that person is guaranteed success which is wrong], the only reason that individual may have power is because of the team creating opportunities and pushing forward options to guide the game into a favorable situation. You're right, it doesn't inherently mean it outweighs it, but in this case it does, because every second of a LoL fight requires just as much attention to detail as dota, and can be just as gamechanging as far as the outcome of the fight, and yet they have to maintain that level of attention and coordination for a longer period of time. Let's put it this way, when you watch LoL, you watch how every player is contributing, each one of them is vital. When you watch dota, you sorta watch how every player is contributing, but you are mainly looking at the teams allstars. I disagree, the allstar is only as good as the rest of his team. This is true for both games, every player matters. Also, I don't think every second can be just as important as every second in DotA in regards to longer teamfights, when you have to do a ton in a shorter amount of time, you're doing more in that time frame, it's a lot easier to fuck up and die in a second if you really want to compare survivability. Also, let's not forget "Flash, aaaah savior of the universe!" Sure but you assume the workloads are equal in team fights, because you do not want to acknowledge the fact that LoL actually is more team oriented and has a larger workload for a larger amount of time. As far as team based fights go.
I'm not acknowledging that because I don't think it's accurate, at the highest level of play, I don't think that either game is more team oriented. Each hero feels individually more powerful in DotA, but when you realize that every other hero feels that way too, you should understand why at the highest level of play, where everyone is taking full advantage of their hero's strengths, you can't solo your way through anything, you need your team. The game even has easy access to get to your team in the form of teleportation scrolls, it is very team based.
So no, I don't think it's more team oriented and I could just as easily you don't want to acknowledge the fact that LoL is no more team oriented than DotA.
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Mordiford, I don't really think you understood my argument fully, so I can't really respond to you.
On August 17 2011 06:40 Shinbi wrote:
A difference in lengths of fights simply shifts the amount of coordination/decision making along a pre-during-post fight timeline. Just because a team fight lasts longer on average doesn't inherently mean the coordination put into a fight timeline suddenly outweighs one that lasts for a shorter amount of time.
What I am gonna disagree with Shinbi here is that the amount of teamwork needed shifts-I believe it is actually extended. What I have noticed is that dynamics DURING a 5v5 teamfight is much much more complex than the proper/advantageous initialization. Of course, the initialization arguably has more affect on the outcome of the fight, but during a 5v5 the amount of possible coordination opportunities and possible danger elements are much more uncertain. In other words, the midst of a 5v5 is more chaotic than a intialization, which means the upper ceiling to teamwork possibility is higher than an initialization. And since League has a longer timeframe for the duration of the 5v5, I reasonably conclude that league requires more teamwork.
On August 17 2011 06:40 Shinbi wrote:
And although DotA may give more power to an individual [from this, it seems that you're acting as if you pick a carry and that person is guaranteed success which is wrong], the only reason that individual may have power is because of the team creating opportunities and pushing forward options to guide the game into a favorable situation.
I agree that the carry getting fed (excepting cases in which the enemy laner fails) is only possible by good teamwork. What I will point out here is that in both games, LoL and Dota, it is very advantageous to feed the carry kills. Also true is that in LoL, a fed carry is less effective than a fed carry in Dota-this means that when a carry is fed, teamwork is not as important in dota because you can make up for a slightly botched up teamwork in a big fight with the fed carry. Once again this goes back to my argument that in LoL, teamwork is more important by necessity
edit cuz I sux at 1stdraft
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ITT: Appeal to Authority Fallacy
Also known as: I'm pulling rank on you so I'm right / My e-peen is bigger than yours / I'm royalty and you're a peasant
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On August 17 2011 08:01 Lanzoma wrote:
ITT: Appeal to Authority Fallacy
Also known as: I'm pulling rank on you so I'm right / My e-peen is bigger than yours / I'm royalty and you're a peasant
It's just silly how players from games always want their game to be glorified as perfect in all ways. LoL is not Dota, they both have their strengths and weaknesses, in the realm of teamwork LoL wins. In the realm of personal glory, dota wins.
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On August 17 2011 08:13 robertdinh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 08:01 Lanzoma wrote:
ITT: Appeal to Authority Fallacy
Also known as: I'm pulling rank on you so I'm right / My e-peen is bigger than yours / I'm royalty and you're a peasant It's just silly how players from games always want their game to be glorified as perfect in all ways. LoL is not Dota, they both have their strengths and weaknesses, in the realm of teamwork LoL wins. In the realm of personal glory, dota wins.
Only, that's not factual either.
I'm fine with conceding, "They both have their own merits" but one being more about teamwork is still something I don't quite see.
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EPT
