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Baa?21245 Posts
On August 24 2011 05:14 Juicyfruit wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 04:56 BlackPaladin wrote:
Brand's w's delay isn't as long, the radius is much larger, and it costs less mana. Yes yes, brand's W is much better blah blah... but my point is that it's still not 100% guaranteed to hit and there are other reasons that brands do well by maxing W first, one being that it gives them and basically any AP carries some very much needed lane control by being able to push out before making a play elsewhere on the map. Suppose that you can solve the mana issue (either via sorakabot or blue buff), you really don't want to end up level 9 in a lane with only baleful strike while the enemy team clears his wave in 2 spells and then goes off and do whatever while you're pinned down. I think being able to insta-gib ranged minions with 1 spell is a minimum requirement if you wish to be able to leave your lane at all without losing too much everytime you want to roam, and veigar certainly would benefit from being able to make his insta-gibbing power to good use elsewhere. Plus, a stun + dark matter combo is virtually impossible to retaliate against or avoid, but again, costs a lot of mana which is why at least on paper, veigar is only strong if he can access cheap mana throughout early game. Also, here's a delayed happy birthday nob 
Bring Teleport.
W just sucks way too much. "Having infinite mana" is great for maxing W on paper, but when does that happen LOL.
Also if you max Q, you can start to basically 1 shot caster creeps at 7/9, which is slwoe rthan insta clearing wave but still reasonable speed.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
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On August 24 2011 05:21 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 05:14 Juicyfruit wrote:On August 24 2011 04:56 BlackPaladin wrote:
Brand's w's delay isn't as long, the radius is much larger, and it costs less mana. Yes yes, brand's W is much better blah blah... but my point is that it's still not 100% guaranteed to hit and there are other reasons that brands do well by maxing W first, one being that it gives them and basically any AP carries some very much needed lane control by being able to push out before making a play elsewhere on the map. Suppose that you can solve the mana issue (either via sorakabot or blue buff), you really don't want to end up level 9 in a lane with only baleful strike while the enemy team clears his wave in 2 spells and then goes off and do whatever while you're pinned down. I think being able to insta-gib ranged minions with 1 spell is a minimum requirement if you wish to be able to leave your lane at all without losing too much everytime you want to roam, and veigar certainly would benefit from being able to make his insta-gibbing power to good use elsewhere. Plus, a stun + dark matter combo is virtually impossible to retaliate against or avoid, but again, costs a lot of mana which is why at least on paper, veigar is only strong if he can access cheap mana throughout early game. Also, here's a delayed happy birthday nob Bring Teleport. W just sucks way too much. "Having infinite mana" is great for maxing W on paper, but when does that happen LOL. Also if you max Q, you can start to basically 1 shot caster creeps at 7/9, which is slwoe rthan insta clearing wave but still reasonable speed.
I'm not saying you can't get 100% cs even by maxing Q (you can), but I really dislike the inflexibility because a lot of champions can get upwards of 20 seconds of free-roaming while you are back at your tower farming Q farming like a boss, and you would never be able to severely punish their roaming with a strong push.
Plus I don`t get how anyone can retaliate against a W+E combo. Like....you can`t avoid that stun because it`s got like 900 effective range and taking a single one generally means that you`ll die the next time you get stunned É_É
Infinite mana is when you lane with soraka or are constantly being passed the blue buff. Both are ideal situations for playing veigar and imo veigar with blue buff beats other AP carries with blue buff.
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
Congrats my musical dinosaur friend!
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Baa?21245 Posts
W also costs 140 mana, and is impossible to land without 2-3 E as said, so really, you're not doing anythign with your huge cost Dark Matter until level 12-13 ish. Q max can easily get you a kill at 6, or another one when you first get DFG, or another one at 11, because you can always run up and Q them for like 250 damage, which is equivalent to a rank3-4 W, except it's on a 2 second cooldown.
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On August 24 2011 05:28 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
W also costs 140 mana, and is impossible to land without 2-3 E as said, so really, you're not doing anythign with your huge cost Dark Matter until level 12-13 ish.
This rings false to me. I know for sure that with good precision and maybe MS quints, you can land dark matter -> horizon everytime with just 1 point in stun because I've seen it before. The dark matter may take a while to land but the stun is instantaneous and the range is loooong. Again, requires very good precision with the stun to basically force the edge on them immediately after dark matter is cast.
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Baa?21245 Posts
On August 24 2011 05:30 Juicyfruit wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 05:28 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
W also costs 140 mana, and is impossible to land without 2-3 E as said, so really, you're not doing anythign with your huge cost Dark Matter until level 12-13 ish. This rings false to me. I know for sure that with good precision and maybe MS quints, you can dark matter -> horizon everytime with just 1 point in stun.
Only if they're bad D: W takes 2 seconds to drop, rank 1 stun is 1.5s and rank 2 is 1.75s.
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W takes 1.2 seconds to drop >.>???
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Baa?21245 Posts
On August 24 2011 05:32 Juicyfruit wrote:
W takes 1.2 seconds to drop >.>???
Merc treads? Also because W is longer range than QR, just because you land EW doesn't mean you'll be in time to follow up with QR. And if not you just wasted 220 mana.
Also if you maxed W it means you probably missed out on like 50 AP of Q farm by level 9.
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On August 24 2011 05:21 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
gtr, grats nerd lol
On August 24 2011 05:26 MoonBear wrote:
Congrats my musical dinosaur friend!
thanks guys!
i'm holding out on RIOT having a special skin/reward/achievement for having wins with every champion in season 1.
i mean i'm 95% sure they won't, but one can hope!
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United States47024 Posts
On August 24 2011 05:25 Juicyfruit wrote:
Plus I don`t get how anyone can retaliate against a W+E combo. Like....you can`t avoid that stun because it`s got like 900 effective range and taking a single one generally means that you`ll die the next time you get stunned É_É
Without rank 2+ E (rank 3 if they buy mercs), you have to W->E, or they get to move out of E before W lands. This makes your combo super predictable and disruptable by most AP carries mid (who generally have appropriate response CC), or by any solo with a jump skill.
On August 24 2011 05:30 Juicyfruit wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 05:28 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
W also costs 140 mana, and is impossible to land without 2-3 E as said, so really, you're not doing anythign with your huge cost Dark Matter until level 12-13 ish. This rings false to me. I know for sure that with good precision and maybe MS quints, you can land dark matter -> horizon everytime with just 1 point in stun because I've seen it before. The dark matter may take a while to land but the stun is instantaneous and the range is loooong. Again, requires very good precision with the stun to basically force the edge on them immediately after dark matter is cast.
I'm pretty sure the cast animations on W and E are long enough that even though on paper, rank 1 E stun is long enough, in practice you need rank 2.
I'm also pretty sure it's Loci that said you need to W->E in order to combo with rank 1 E, but I could be wrong.
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On August 24 2011 05:35 gtrsrs wrote:thanks guys! i'm holding out on RIOT having a special skin/reward/achievement for having wins with every champion in season 1. i mean i'm 95% sure they won't, but one can hope!
hmm I might try to do this as an ongoing project once S2 starts. I mean Im terrible at this game, but you are bound to get carried every once in awhile. and itll give me a good reason to play ranked where as Ive preferred normals all along because the skill levels are flatter and people arent so rage-y because they have a stick up their ass about losing their precious elo
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This wasn't in the leaked skins I don't think.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/qXkK3.jpg)
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sorry to derail the tread but really come on, Lol players are not as Bm as other communities, you havent played enough free online games. In comparison lol players are now like nutered dogs, cause since the tribunal they havent been very bm, I dont consider smack talk to be bm and I go into every game knowing that NOONE will help me I should not expect anything but feeders and akfers in my team I expect them to be mad If someone starts to feed I just try to not get emocional about it. Once I start doing well it inspires the rest, of course some games are doomed from the get go but its easy to put the /ignore to avoid any headaches. The comunitiy is Not bad at all, Just dont listen to the chat and you will be fine. If you are on TL then you probabbly are better than most of the people out there.
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On August 24 2011 05:38 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 05:25 Juicyfruit wrote:
Plus I don`t get how anyone can retaliate against a W+E combo. Like....you can`t avoid that stun because it`s got like 900 effective range and taking a single one generally means that you`ll die the next time you get stunned É_É Without rank 2+ E (rank 3 if they buy mercs), you have to W->E, or they get to move out of E before W lands. This makes your combo super predictable and disruptable by most AP carries mid (who generally have appropriate response CC), or by any solo with a jump skill.
I don't believe many champions have any method at all of retaliating against the range of the combo. None of them have a cc capable of outranging the stun and as the veigar, you're also increasing your odds by setting up the combo as they're aiming to farm.
On August 24 2011 05:38 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 05:30 Juicyfruit wrote:On August 24 2011 05:28 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
W also costs 140 mana, and is impossible to land without 2-3 E as said, so really, you're not doing anythign with your huge cost Dark Matter until level 12-13 ish. This rings false to me. I know for sure that with good precision and maybe MS quints, you can land dark matter -> horizon everytime with just 1 point in stun because I've seen it before. The dark matter may take a while to land but the stun is instantaneous and the range is loooong. Again, requires very good precision with the stun to basically force the edge on them immediately after dark matter is cast. I'm pretty sure the cast animations on W and E are long enough that even though on paper, rank 1 E stun is long enough, in practice you need rank 2. I'm also pretty sure it's Loci that said you need to W->E in order to combo with rank 1 E, but I could be wrong.
This is true though. I earnestly mean dark matter before horizon, and being able to hit it is entirely up to the player. MUST try it out. I have seen veigar players land in W->E combos repeatedly back when dark matter took TWO seconds to land.
On August 24 2011 05:35 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Merc treads? Also because W is longer range than QR, just because you land EW doesn't mean you'll be in time to follow up with QR. And if not you just wasted 220 mana. Also if you maxed W it means you probably missed out on like 50 AP of Q farm by level 9.
You can't do anything about that anyways. Since I think ideally you should be tossing out dark matter before stun, it doesn't even slow you down compared to if you just straight up stunned and then Q-R.
Also, 50AP ?_? if you say so I will believe you, but that's a lot more than I can imagine considering veigar's innate weakness and the cooldown on Q decreasing only graduatelly from 8 to 4.
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i dont know why veigar isnt played more often, i find him very scary if played properly.
its like a leblanc with ae stun and double the range.
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On August 24 2011 05:35 gtrsrs wrote:thanks guys! i'm holding out on RIOT having a special skin/reward/achievement for having wins with every champion in season 1. i mean i'm 95% sure they won't, but one can hope!
I have an open ticket with Riot. Asking wtf happened to the top 500 beta icons, it as been open for 17 days, as passed through 3 rioters hands(shogun,encassedshadows,romulus) and the only reply I got in it is asking for more info on my account, which I had already provided. So if they shy away from even replying to an inquiry on a reward they have promised over a year ago, I don't think they will come up with a secret reward on the fly.
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You can farm nearly 100 AP in lane just from q lasthits. You've played with me plenty of times as veigar, Tap. You should know that. (but do you even play veigar?? never saw you play him before) It's always r>q>e>w.
Doesn't matter if you can or can't hit w, in the end q is better overall with the decreased cooldown and lower mana cost. E->W combo is like half your mana (over 200 mana used for that combo alone, that's without throwing in a q). You do not use that combo often in lane at all, and should rely more on your q. With your passive you can q nearly everytime it's off cooldown with basic mana regen if your mana is low.
Veigar's job earlygame is basically to farm, because him getting farmed = can instagib anyone midgame. Maxing q can hit squishies for 1/3 - 1/4 of their life per cast anyway, and the damage is only slightly less than w's damage but it's mana cost is much lower than w's. In lane, basically, you're outputting more damage per mana with max q and you don't need to rely on your stun to do so. It gives you a lot more laning power than maxing w. You clear creeps slightly slower with q than w but not 20 seconds slower.....and you can output more sustained damage in lane.
To me a veigar that has to e->w me everytime he wants to do damage isn't as scary as one that can do 1/3-1/4 of my life every 3 seconds without any trouble.
Also, today is my b-day (it's 5:12 pm august 23rd by me). TL goes by korean time which is 12 hours off of my time... So thanks mr badioca <3 much love
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On August 24 2011 05:43 HazMat wrote:This wasn't in the leaked skins I don't think.
Am I missing something?
WTF is that?
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On August 24 2011 06:11 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 05:43 HazMat wrote:This wasn't in the leaked skins I don't think. Am I missing something? WTF is that?
Pentakill Karthus.
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EPT
