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I can accept that you probably more or less know better in some fashion, being 2100 and all, but the 9/0/21 thing just seems damn silly. Why do this instead of something more robust in the jungle? Just feels like if you're going to do that, you might as well play another champ.
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What's wrong with 9/0/21? If your jungle is route works it works. No need to go into the defense tree or offensive tree if you don't need to. I'm pretty sure theoddone used to go 0/9/21 on all his junglers.
And "might as well play another champ" regarding jungle mordekaizer? LOL
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On July 02 2011 19:17 Slayer91 wrote:
And "might as well play another champ" regarding jungle mordekaizer? LOL
As much as the flaming is appreciated, I don't really see your point.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
On July 02 2011 18:17 iGrok wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2011 18:07 crate wrote:On July 02 2011 18:04 iGrok wrote:On July 02 2011 17:50 gtrsrs wrote:
many skills that scale with AD still do magic damage i.e. udyr's tiger stance The only skill Poppy has that does MD is Heroic Charge, which scales with AP not AD :/ Poppy Q turns the entire attack, including the normal attack damage, into magic damage. Ah, didn't know that - the description says "attack damage". Why didn't you give that example to begin with instead of the Udyr one -__-
Poppy's Q even turns a Sheen proc into magic damage which is why AP poppy is so wonderful with a Lich Bane.
I see AD poppy more often that I see AP poppy and AP poppy definitely takes more skill to play well which is why I don't understand why someone would label it a "noob build". Besides, they're like equally viable.
Also, if you're relying on skills that scale with AD and do magic damage, AD reds are better than MPen reds in most cases. 9 Mpen is crap when you're not planning to turn it into 29.
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Okay, uh, laneshaco doesn't work. That's pretty much all there is to say on the matter; he doesn't have enough in the way of sustainability.
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poppy is op and gay so any build on her isn't unconventional, you can build whatever the fuck you want on her and win
speed garen, though, wins games
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On July 02 2011 20:57 Odds wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2011 19:17 Slayer91 wrote:
And "might as well play another champ" regarding jungle mordekaizer? LOL As much as the flaming is appreciated, I don't really see your point.
Jungle mordekaizer is pretty much a troll strat is my point. (Explanation being that mordekaizer is such a good laner and farmer and is so farm dependent not to mention having a sub par jungle route and poor ganks that jungling him is only for the lulz) Besides, I honestly don't see why going 9/0/21 has anything to do with being a bad jungle champion. If anything, if makes you a good jungle champion because you aren't forced to go into the defensive tree. (Which is what I assume you mean by "more robust".
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On July 02 2011 19:09 Odds wrote:I can accept that you probably more or less know better in some fashion, being 2100 and all, but the 9/0/21 thing just seems damn silly. Why do this instead of something more robust in the jungle? Just feels like if you're going to do that, you might as well play another champ.
You regen mana faster with 21 utility, that's why.
With 21 in defense you take slightly less dmg, with 21 in offense you deal slightly more dmg, with 21 in util you have higher movespeed, lower sum cd and cdr, doesn't really matter what you take if it works.
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On July 03 2011 01:11 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2011 20:57 Odds wrote:On July 02 2011 19:17 Slayer91 wrote:
And "might as well play another champ" regarding jungle mordekaizer? LOL As much as the flaming is appreciated, I don't really see your point. Jungle mordekaizer is pretty much a troll strat is my point. (Explanation being that mordekaizer is such a good laner and farmer and is so farm dependent not to mention having a sub par jungle route and poor ganks that jungling him is only for the lulz) Besides, I honestly don't see why going 9/0/21 has anything to do with being a bad jungle champion. If anything, if makes you a good jungle champion because you aren't forced to go into the defensive tree. (Which is what I assume you mean by "more robust".
I think it all depends on what do you call troll build:
a) suboptimal build
b) non-viable build.
Jungle morde is suboptimal, yet viable
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On July 03 2011 01:11 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2011 20:57 Odds wrote:On July 02 2011 19:17 Slayer91 wrote:
And "might as well play another champ" regarding jungle mordekaizer? LOL As much as the flaming is appreciated, I don't really see your point. Jungle mordekaizer is pretty much a troll strat is my point. (Explanation being that mordekaizer is such a good laner and farmer and is so farm dependent not to mention having a sub par jungle route and poor ganks that jungling him is only for the lulz) .
Alright, let me explain why I take such extreme offense to this, because I know it's not self-evident.
Before I 'quit' 5 months ago, I spent a ton of time playing unconventional builds and a lot of 'bad' champions. I got yelled at/trolled/ridiculed constantly simply because I did not follow the status quo, and didn't immediately accept the word of the top solo ranked players as divine gospel. I believed that the tier lists were wrong, that people were building the wrong items, and that the people at the 'top' simply didn't put as much effort into their builds as they should have.
Here's a couple things I believed, tried to tell people, and was endlessly ridiculed for:
GP was broken.
Teemo was OP after the buff to his W.
Philo stones were beyond OP, and stacking gold/5 was ridiculously strong.
Jungle Morde was viable.
Cass was strong.
TF was broken.
Guess the fuck what. 5 months later, and the metagame is finally starting to catch up to some things that I already know from my extensive research. GP got permabanned, buffed, and even more permabanned. Teemo got hit so hard with the nerf stick that he's barely a niche pick now. TF is forever banned or first picked.
And Philo stones. Oh, god, did I ever get flamed for thinking that philo stones are OP. 5 months ahead of the game and I'm 'retarded'.
My point is, I'm getting really sick of being proven right, getting no credit for it, and endless droves of people continue to accept their ignorant beliefs as fact, try to push them on me when I've already seen more.
Jungle morde is not a troll build. I've played it easily more than anyone else online, I know its ins and outs better than anyone else online, Smash included (as much respect as I have for his opinion), and have seen it work far too well and consistently to dismiss it out of hand.
I'm obviously not the greatest player out there, but my theory has proven strong time and again. It's extremely frustrating to be repeatedly ridiculed for being right. I'm certainly not always right, but I have proven that the current metagame is not always 'correct', no matter who says it is.
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On July 03 2011 01:11 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2011 20:57 Odds wrote:On July 02 2011 19:17 Slayer91 wrote:
And "might as well play another champ" regarding jungle mordekaizer? LOL As much as the flaming is appreciated, I don't really see your point. Jungle mordekaizer is pretty much a troll strat is my point. (Explanation being that mordekaizer is such a good laner and farmer and is so farm dependent not to mention having a sub par jungle route and poor ganks that jungling him is only for the lulz) Besides, I honestly don't see why going 9/0/21 has anything to do with being a bad jungle champion. If anything, if makes you a good jungle champion because you aren't forced to go into the defensive tree. (Which is what I assume you mean by "more robust".
morde isnt that good of a laner, he really gets screwed over massively in a lot of matchups. Also, its not like its terribly hard to farm your ass off as jungle morde, simply because his speed is so great and you can steal all kinds of minions from both enemy jungler and from lanes after ganking.
The only issue i have with jungle morde is that he doesnt offer utility, which is more and more becoming a high priority for junglers, due to how hard it is to gank lanes. but that really only comes into play in like the 2k lvl, so its not really a concern for like 99% of the tl community
edit: also, @ odds, i hate to burst ur bubble, and ur right about most of the stuff u posted ^, but gp really was not terribly op in any way until they changed his passive.
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Cool. You said something and it came true. Nobody else has done that before.
Have a cookie.
GP was NOT permabanned before he got that last buff lol.
There were plenty of people who were calling the Teemo OP after the W buff.
I would have told you that Cass is good at any time.
TF is more of a pubstomper than anything, did you see how he didn't live up to his perma ban status during Dreamhack?
Stacking gold/10 on the other hand isn't "ridiculously strong" unless you play at very high levels where people are making less mistakes and play safer.
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Ive tried to build pretty much all champions I own [21], the same way you build Irelia: Rush triforce and build tanky from there, it works well with Vayne.
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On July 02 2011 23:58 Odds wrote:
Okay, uh, laneshaco doesn't work. That's pretty much all there is to say on the matter; he doesn't have enough in the way of sustainability.
Tell that to TSM. Get a backdoor character, brand, have shaco solo mid and you've won the game already.
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i've always thought Cass was strong, just gotta build health very early so you can do the damage, and when you do, damn is it a shit ton of fucking damage with dem twin fangs
Edit: also, if anyne knows about Cait Jungle can you talk about it some? i've seen it done in a agame when we didnt have one, and she apparently cleared jungle and ganked bot enough time to clearly win that lane and i dont know how she did it
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I don't think AP trist drops off late game too too much. She works much like AP yi in that you have to let your team go in, screw around, get everyone low, and then you can come in, flank and ks with your w. one of my favorite things in this game is to see AP trist bounce up and down with w, getting a kill on each one. es #1.
Great thread btw.
I would suggest gunblade on Nunu, very fun.
Tank veigar (more troll but still can work)
and then classics like speed garen, solotop AP janna, and just playing Karma in general, which is an uncoventional move but SHE'S ACTUALLY REALLY GOOD.
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On July 03 2011 07:45 r33k wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2011 23:58 Odds wrote:
Okay, uh, laneshaco doesn't work. That's pretty much all there is to say on the matter; he doesn't have enough in the way of sustainability. Tell that to TSM. Get a backdoor character, brand, have shaco solo mid and you've won the game already.
I should clarify. It doesn't work in solo queue.
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On July 03 2011 07:45 r33k wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2011 23:58 Odds wrote:
Okay, uh, laneshaco doesn't work. That's pretty much all there is to say on the matter; he doesn't have enough in the way of sustainability. Tell that to TSM. Get a backdoor character, brand, have shaco solo mid and you've won the game already.
Sorry but is brand there just because he can win any lane?
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On July 03 2011 06:45 Odds wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2011 01:11 Slayer91 wrote:On July 02 2011 20:57 Odds wrote:On July 02 2011 19:17 Slayer91 wrote:
And "might as well play another champ" regarding jungle mordekaizer? LOL As much as the flaming is appreciated, I don't really see your point. Jungle mordekaizer is pretty much a troll strat is my point. (Explanation being that mordekaizer is such a good laner and farmer and is so farm dependent not to mention having a sub par jungle route and poor ganks that jungling him is only for the lulz) . Alright, let me explain why I take such extreme offense to this, because I know it's not self-evident. Before I 'quit' 5 months ago, I spent a ton of time playing unconventional builds and a lot of 'bad' champions. I got yelled at/trolled/ridiculed constantly simply because I did not follow the status quo, and didn't immediately accept the word of the top solo ranked players as divine gospel. I believed that the tier lists were wrong, that people were building the wrong items, and that the people at the 'top' simply didn't put as much effort into their builds as they should have. Here's a couple things I believed, tried to tell people, and was endlessly ridiculed for: GP was broken. Teemo was OP after the buff to his W. Philo stones were beyond OP, and stacking gold/5 was ridiculously strong. Jungle Morde was viable. Cass was strong. TF was broken. Guess the fuck what. 5 months later, and the metagame is finally starting to catch up to some things that I already know from my extensive research. GP got permabanned, buffed, and even more permabanned. Teemo got hit so hard with the nerf stick that he's barely a niche pick now. TF is forever banned or first picked. And Philo stones. Oh, god, did I ever get flamed for thinking that philo stones are OP. 5 months ahead of the game and I'm 'retarded'. My point is, I'm getting really sick of being proven right, getting no credit for it, and endless droves of people continue to accept their ignorant beliefs as fact, try to push them on me when I've already seen more. Jungle morde is not a troll build. I've played it easily more than anyone else online, I know its ins and outs better than anyone else online, Smash included (as much respect as I have for his opinion), and have seen it work far too well and consistently to dismiss it out of hand. I'm obviously not the greatest player out there, but my theory has proven strong time and again. It's extremely frustrating to be repeatedly ridiculed for being right. I'm certainly not always right, but I have proven that the current metagame is not always 'correct', no matter who says it is.
You're making a big fuss about nothing. You're just having double standards here. You said: "Why use another champion" as a rebuttal to something". My point is that it should be given that he's not the right champion to pick as a jungler but he's not like some auto lose champion. Sure, he can jungle. Is he the best choice for the job in any situation? No. So don't use "don't play him this way because other champions can do it better" as an argument.
Jungle mordekaizer viable? Sure, my jungle nasus is viable too, but I wouldn't pick jungle nasus if I were in an important ranked 5's team.
I can see why you want to go 21 defense, but sacrificing a bit of sustainability seems fine. magic penetration is really good and so is the movement speed and cdr from utility, and you need the buff duration. I would probably go 21 defense as well.
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On July 03 2011 08:58 Arthemesia wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2011 07:45 r33k wrote:On July 02 2011 23:58 Odds wrote:
Okay, uh, laneshaco doesn't work. That's pretty much all there is to say on the matter; he doesn't have enough in the way of sustainability. Tell that to TSM. Get a backdoor character, brand, have shaco solo mid and you've won the game already. Sorry but is brand there just because he can win any lane?
He's there for counterinitiation. They come close, shaco boxes and brand nukes everything. Before they can engage they are all at 60% hp or lower. We're talking about roa AP shaco.
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EPT
