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I don't see a topic for this and, considering that my laptop is for the moment a pretty paperweight, figured that I would go ahead and actually type this damn thing up.
This is a thread for all of those builds that go outside the norm: guides to play champions in ways that will make everyone else in the game go, "wtf", before you begin raping and pillaging the enemy team's towns and women.
I don't feel that these fit into the previously-existing discussion threads for these champions, because, well- they are entirely different discussions. It should also create a framework where we can transfer the ideas surrounding one champion's unique build, and apply them to entirely different champions. Maybe an idea from one of my jungle Mordekaiser builds will make something 'click' for someone playing Udyr or something: and make their build that much more efficient.
Not all the builds in this thread are necessarily 'better' than the traditional ones (though sometimes they may be!) but they should provide solid ways of looking at champions in a new light.
I can't be the only person who makes a hobby out of this. Let's see 'em: the ones you think have potential, the ones you don't, and why.
So without further adieu:
Jungle Mordekaiser
Okay. So. I've tried probably every single jungle Mordekaiser build remotely conceivable. Some of them work. Some of them don't. My opinion as to which one is the 'best' changes, often. The logic underneath all of them is this:
Morde is the fastest jungler in the game, bar none, period. There is just no other champ that can remotely clear jungle creeps as fast as he can. He's also completely sustainable: it is easily possible to clear the entire jungle in under 4 minutes, and continue jungling without a return to base. The obvious tradeoff for this is your ganks are kinda bad, so you combat the enemy jungler just by anticipating his movements and stealing his farm.
Morde needs quite a few things to be effective. Unfortunately, getting all of them is insanely expensive, and usually not possible in a realistic game: so you have to cut corners. Most of these builds are just different ways of getting the same things:
a. regen
b. move speed
c. magic pen
d. attack damage (scales Q and helps you knock down towers)
e. resistances
f. a slow.
I should note that the flat AD exists in every build for a number of reasons. First, it helps you clear jungle in general a lot faster by increasing your AD by about 8%. More importantly, it lets you clear wraiths consistently by using just one Q and one W: they are extremely obnoxious to clear otherwise.
One positive effect of this is that, if the enemy jungler starts at the blue golem: with any of these builds, you can start enemy twingols, and clear those and his wraiths before he is able to catch or see you. The ability to clear a wraith camp in 3 seconds almost immediately at the start of the game should not be underestimated in terms of counterjungling. This works completely regardless of enemy jungler, unless he smells something and skips his wolves or whatever.
So basically, to make a jungle morde build, decide beforehand what item build you want to use, and then pick a rune/mastery build to cover its weaknesses/complement it.
You can't have too much of any one of these things, except for probably regen. Try to cover your need for it, but with as little excess as possible. One of the main tricks, then, is barely covering your regen need while still getting everything else and not wasting too much cash on extra regen items.
EVERY build uses the same skill build: R>Q>W>E. Completely ignore E until you have to put points in it.
Possible Opening Items (depending on build):
-Cloth+5pot
-Regrowth Pendant + 1pot
-Regen Bead + 6pot
-Vamp Scepter
Items you can build with the cloth armor:
Wriggles
GA
Aegis
Obviously, you will get endlessly ridiculed by your team for any of these other than GA. I note wriggles because I used to get it-- but I think it is probably bad as morde doesn't have any real AD steroids, and it doesn't quite make you completely self-sustaining in terms of regen: your hp will decay much more slowly, but it will still decay.
GA and Aegis are both great options, as they provide great resistances and utility for their cost: but you will need to grab a regen item before either- and neither will help you stay attached to the enemy carry in a fight. This makes Aegis a bit awkward as you need it kinda early game; but you need a slow or something early game too! It's probably good if you're fed. If you're getting GA, it can wait.
Aegis increases your attack damage, which is great. It increases your health, which is great. It increases your resistances, which is fantastic. It boosts your teammates and helps you push, which is super-awesome-fantastic.
Items you can build with the Regrowth:
FoN
FoN
FoN
It's FoN. You're Morde. The only real thing that needs to be said is that finishing the FoN should probably wait until after you have a ganking item, or you'll be invincible but your ganks will really suck and your teammates will get mad. Just get 2 regrowths for your regen needs and finish the damn thing later.
Items you can build with the Regen Bead:
Warden's Mail.
Warden's is a fantastic item on Morde because of how much you tend to get focused in fights (because you're all up in their carry's face being impudent and shit. Also Mordekaiser) and it helps you control your positioning and escape from bad fights much more easily. Almost a must if the enemy team has an AD carry as well as something like Xin or Jarvan. If they have 3 or more such champs, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BUILD WARDEN'S MAIL.
It also makes you completely impervious to the jungle. You can probably solo dragon now.
Items you can build with the Vamp Scepter:
Bilgewater Cutlass
Wriggle's
As discussed earlier, don't get Wriggles. The Bilgewater, however, is an absolutely fantastic item on Morde (particularly jungle morde) because it almost satisfies his need for regen (a need totally fulfilled by the item it builds into: hextech gunblade), gives him an immense amount of attack damage: your Q's HURT, and gives him what he needs most of all: a slow to get dem kills.
Possible endgame target items:
Triforce
Hextech Gunblade
Rylai's
You need one of these to do anything in the lategame. Morde is useless as a straight tank, because he has no CC, and therefore if he has no damage, there is no reason to attack him. Triforce is ludicrously good as it helps you push, chase, get kills, and do every damn thing else.
Hextech gives you a slow that you can use to pull off insane ganks. Make Ashe really, really mad. It also increases the power of your E, making it not useless, as well as the rest of your abilities. It also covers all of your regen needs, so it might be seen as more 'efficient' than Triforce. So, whichever you prefer.
Rylai's gets a special mention as it feels like a bit of a red herring. It seems really good intuitively, but the slow just isn't strong enough, and requires you to get (and stay) too close: you'll get kited like crazy. It doesn't give you the speed and reliable slow of the Triforce, or the insane 3 second 50% wtfslow of the Hextech. If you're super super fed in the endgame and already have a Hextech, consider a Rylai's to further synergize with your abilities and help you stay on top of the people you've already slowed.
Possible Boots:
Sorcs
If you're building Hextech and Rylai's, consider Sorcs to further maximize your damage output. Hell, they work really well with Triforce as well: your Q does 600 magic damage. It would be a shame not to have it do 600 god damn true damage. If you're getting these, you really need to be using the FD Kaizer build to be able to catch people.
Swiftness
My personal favorite. Always catch always kill.
Mercs
For pussies. Play a different damn champ if you're this scared to get CC'd. Seriously, though, they're probably not a bad choice. Just expensive and don't really help you move faster.
(Very, very situational) Ninja Tabi
If you started Cloth+5pot and the enemy is attack-damage heavy
And now, early game builds!
1. Fastest Damn Kaizer
Red: Flat AD
Yellow: Armor
Blue: Mres/Level
Quint: MS%
1/14/15
Cloth+5pot
You get +7.5% movespeed from this, which helps immensely with early red buff ganks as well as being able to catch and stay attached to the enemy AD carry in later teamfights. The tradeoff is that you can't jungle nearly as well or sustainably as with more consistent masteries and defensive quints. You need to start cloth+5pot here.
2. Regen Rune Kaizer
Red: Flat AD
Yellow: HP/5/level. Not making this up. I have these. So should you.
Blue: Mres/level
Quint: flat HP/5
1/21/8
Cloth+5pot
With this build, you do not need any regen items. Ever. So you can go straight for resistances and chasing power. Aegis-> Triforce all the way, baby.
3. Immovable Object Kaizer
Red: Flat AD
Yellow: Armor
Blue: Mres/level
Quint: Armor
1/21/8
Start: whatever the fuck you feel like. The jungle is nothing to you. My personal favorite, as you can clear the whole damn thing with a Regrowth while staying practically full health the entire time.
Solo Top Shaco
I'll write up my litany of teemo builds later, it will take hours. For now, this is something fun I experimented once with. In Ranked. And my god, was my team mad.
Before I carried them. inb4 spudboy's aneurysm
Anyways, the reasons I think solo top shaco might be viable, and perhaps even better than jungle shaco, are as follows:
1. You are un-damn-gankable. Period. You are completely and in all ways utterly invulnerable to your opponents' petty attempts to kill you in your lane. There is just no way, if you're playing properly, to EVER die to a jungle gank.
2. Your opponent is not. You are Shaco. If your jungler is a strong ganker like Nocturne, he can practically get a guaranteed kill (or wasted summoner) every single time he comes to your lane.
3. It's a well-known fact that Shaco is only good when very farmed. And then he becomes nuts. The jungle is not the best place to obtain farm. Top lane is.
4. Because of your opponent's fear of Shaco+whatever else ganks, you will probably win the lane, and likely get fed.
5. when the lane is pushed, you can help your jungler counterjungle with cleverly placed boxes. Also just straight up kill their jungler when they're doing red buff. Because, you know, you're Shaco.
My build:
Red: Arpen
Yellow: flat mp5
Blue: flat mp5
Quint: flat hp5
Masteries: 1/8(SoS)/21
Ghost/ignite
Open Dshield so you can get all of the last hits, then follow immediately with Tear. Last hit with E if you don't feel you can get close enough to last hit with melee attacks: that's what all that mana regen is for. Build Zerks and Manamune. Then I don't know. Maybe Sunfire and Atma's or something. Hexdrinker is good too, as is Black Cleaver and all the rest. Do what you like.
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AD nunu, melee with a slow and attkspeed+movespeed boost+free heal if creep nearby.
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On tryndamere, zerkers + cloak and dagger -> Youmu -> Trinity Force really strong.
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AD malphite, triforce into atmas.
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AP Trist actually really strong.
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The legend known as Hotshotgg played APTrist on stream and it was one of the most hilarious hard carry performances ever.
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AP trist is really scary early/midgame if you lack inherent tankiness and don't control the game. Lategame she can't really do all that much as she needs to build pure offense to be dangerous.
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Er
It seems to me like the skill order should be QWWQWR for jungle mordekaiser, no?
is Q>W really better? =/
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Damn that's is one elaborate guide for jungle morde, I'll have to give it a shot. I can't think of anything really out of the ordinary to add to the list. However we all know and love the AP ram.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
ap galio. as legit as it gets. go mid, rape whoevers there and get all cs automatically then come to teamfights and do 1/2 of everyone's hp with just ult
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Posted this in the Ashe thread somewhere, but I've really updated it, sooo.....
Robin-Hood Ashe
The thought process behind this build was: "What attributes of characters do I find 'Annoying'? How can I make Ashe 'Annoying'? The stuff I find 'annoying' is probably really damn good." And do you know what I think the single most annoying thing in LoL is? When Warwick just won't die because he's regaining Health so fast. So I set out to build an Ashe that just wouldn't die. Then I realized that lifesteal actually works really well with Ashe, because she is naturally reliant on auto-attacks. This build is very difficult early game, but once you hit 3 items and boots becomes damn near unstoppable. It is also very dependent on enemy team composition. If they have multiple stuns, use Chauster's Ashe, not this one.
Masteries:
21/0/9
Offensive tree: 3 Deadliness, 1 Archmage's Savvy, 3 Alacrity, 4 Sorcery, 3 Sunder, 3 Brute Force, 3 Lethality, 1 Havoc
Utility tree: 2 Good Hands, 3 Perseverance, 4 Awareness
Summoner Spells:
Flash + Teleport
or
Flash + Cleanse (If they have multiple stuns - I would recommend going someone else if they have more than 1 stun, but Cleanse is an alternative)
Runes:
9 Attack Speed Marks
9 Flat Armor Seals
9 Flat Magic Resist Glyphs
3 Attack Speed Quints
Thats +25.5% Attack Speed,+12.69 Armor and + 13.41 MR. You need all of these things for early game.
Skill order:
WEWEWRQ;R>W>E=Q
or
WEWQWRE;R>W>E=Q
Maxing W at level 9 has top priority because of the huge difference in cooldowns and the damage. Don't underestimate the added dps you'll deal to minions with better Volley.
Get Q earlier if you opposing mid is over-aggressive so you can set up a gank, but make sure you get Hawkshot, both for the gold and for scouting ganks. This build is dependent on cashflow and not dying. If your opponents in sidelanes are being easily gankable, go Q >E. If they're playing really safe, go E>Q.
Build:
- Vampiric Scepter + Potion. You'll have to wait until after minions start spawning. You have time to run out and defend your jungler or whatever, b back to buy the pot, teleport up to mid turret, and still make it to your blue in time to leash it if you need to.
- B. F. Sword
- The Bloodthirster
- Boots of Speed (If you can wait until you have 1250 to finish the bloodthirster and get boots in one trip, even better.
- Bezerkers' Greaves
- The Bloodthirster 2
- Phantom Dancer
- Phantom Dancer 2
- Infinity Edge
- Sell Boots, PD 3 or LW if they built armor
If you have trouble in your lane, get both scepter and boots asap. Call in a gank if you have to just to scare them off and buy yourself some farming time. FARMING TIME IS ALSO HEALING TIME when you've got the scepter. Just keep up that autoattack! Don't be afraid to push, you've got hawkshot and flash to escape any ganks. In fact, you should be pushing - if you aren't you're probably not stealing enough health from the minions to make up for tha absent health from having no Doran's. In the beginning, you will be VERY squishy, but once your first BT is up you'll stay at full health pretty much all the time.
Elixiers
Red Elixir is usually good to get all game, but usually you're better off saving until you get to the second Bloodthirster. Exceptions are if you're being beaten badly in mid, if you're too squishy to farm.
Green Elixier is a must after you get the second Bloodthirster. Don't underestimate the effects of combining lifesteal and attack speed. Plus you'll get your stacks up much quicker.
Blue Elixir is not very important. Get it if your teammates are grabbing the blue buff.
Grab the Oracle's Elixir if they're stealthing endgame. You won't die often (after your first PD) with this build, so its worth the investment. Picking off a stealther who thinks you're an easy target is fun and free money.
Buffs
There is one stage where you really need the buffs - between the Bloodthirsters. You need to build your stacks and earn enough money for the second one as quickly as possible. Once you have the first bloodthirster, go grab red if your jungler can spare it.
Other than that, take them as needed. I tend to leave Q on, so I run short of mana.
Combat
Don't Die. This is really, really important. I know that Veigar has 10% health, but once you kill him you're going to die. Its more important to live, keep farming, and keep stacking. Stay out of the center of teamfights. If enemy melee is chasing you, volley and keep running. Throw your arrow if the fight isn't going on Use flash, particularly if a stun is coming. If you're low and you have the bloodthirster, heal by jungling. You should never be forced to head home for the purpose of healing.
Get those Bloodthirster Stacks up as fast as you fucking can. +100 damage per shot and +25% lifesteal each. So each autoattack you're doing shittons of damage. Awesome. Every time you can sneak off to grab some jungle or minion kills and your jungler can spare them, do it. Just don't get caught on the other side of the map with no support - see paragraph 1.
Once you have your first PD, grab a green and blue pot and start using only autoattacks with Frost Shot. You can just kind of 'Shark Mode' with your team and you'll start getting ridiculous numbers of kills. Continue to farm/jungle when you need health. Blue buff really comes in handy if you're leaving Q on a lot, and red buff is really nice if you die and need to farm even quicker, but not really necessary otherwise. Once you have your 2nd PD and IE, you'll be untouchable. You'll also be the only one even close to max items unless someone was seriously fed. Then you get your third PD, you'll crit every shot for over 800 easily through armor, at a very rapid (2.4ish?) rate, and be stealing half that damage in life.
Basically, from now on you're an Ashe who can't be killed. You out-dps most players, you regain life stupid fast, you have slows to kite and hunt down. You have the Arrow primarily for initiating and picking off weak running enemies out of range - this isn't an AP build, don't get confused and try to do massive damage with it, Arrows are for Stuns not Damage. Use it to stun long enough to get in range with that Frost Shot, and then laugh as they try to kill you, realize they can't, try to run, and realize they still can't do that either. Remember to always follow the golden rule: Don't Fucking Die. Building up the Bloodthirster stacks is annoying :/. The only thing you have to fear is Stuns - but those are a death sentence. Silence doesn't work on you since you're an autoattacker anyways, but if you get stunned you're still ridiculously squishy. Pick off any CCers first. Remember that VOLLEY DOES NOT DO LIFESTEAL. You can initiate with volley if you like, but if you're taking damage stick to autoattacks.
For bonus LoLz, once you have max items go solo the Baron. As Ashe. Without dropping below half health.
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AD poppy, its unconventional cus every noob thinks she should be build AP yadda yadda
Theyre wrong.
First of all;
runes:
You want to have mpen reds, movement speed / mpen / arpen quints, armor / dodge yellows and MR blues
for boots choices theres quite a few:
Sorc boots if they dont really have a lot of cc and you want damage, otherwise you can get ninja tabi if youve gotten dodge runes.
Masteries: 9/21/0 if you know from start off youre gonna get focused / you have dodge runes. 21/9/0 or 21/0/9 if you just wanna smash some faces and being as gimmicky as possible.
9/0/21 if you're one of those who wanna spamm flash ignite 24/7
summoners: flash is someone i nearly allways pick, ignite ghost or exhuast is secondary but all work with her design really good
Boots of mobillity is also a really good choice if they have a yi / nidalee / tf who can split push, since with your W + triforce + boots of mobillity youll run across the map like it's no biggie.
you either open regrowth pendant +1 pot, doran shield and boots +3 potion (my favorite)
Then if you are dominating your lane then you get philos stone, upgrade boots and go straight for trinity force
no matter if youre building tanky or full damage you need your triforce, if you got merc treads then keep / sell your philos stone when you need more item space, but if you didnt get merc treads upgrade it to eleisa's miracle while, before or right after you got your triforce.
then you need to have noticed something: are you getting focused alot in teamfights ?
If yes and it doesnt come from you having poor positioning/engagement then you need to build some tanking items, you usually want 3 tank items at poppy at max, because she really shouldnt be intiating (hard to snipe their carry that way), get FoN for anti magic damage, frozen shroud / heart for anti physical (get omen if someone in your team allready has frozen heart), if you really need a third item get guardian angel.
Now we come to the fun part: damage items, gotta wipe out da deeeepz:
get a combination of: Gunblade, infinity edge, phantom dancer and last whisper. And priotize them in the order i listed them though you might wanna switch up phantom dancer and last whisper if they have too much armor.
With this built and your ulti up on someone you might've thought that vayne did alot of damage, hah dont be silly, does she have a damage amplifier to compliment one of the strongest 1 hit booms (poppy's Q) with a retardedly low CD? Maybe some might say , but fucking smash that son of a nay-sayer's bitch into a wall and proceed to administer the rape with.
Enjoy playing League of Legends own Iron Thong
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Why get MPen if you're going AD?
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many skills that scale with AD still do magic damage i.e. udyr's tiger stance
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On July 02 2011 17:50 gtrsrs wrote:
many skills that scale with AD still do magic damage i.e. udyr's tiger stance
The only skill Poppy has that does MD is Heroic Charge, which scales with AP not AD :/
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On July 02 2011 18:04 iGrok wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2011 17:50 gtrsrs wrote:
many skills that scale with AD still do magic damage i.e. udyr's tiger stance The only skill Poppy has that does MD is Heroic Charge, which scales with AP not AD :/
Poppy Q turns the entire attack, including the normal attack damage, into magic damage.
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On July 02 2011 18:07 crate wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2011 18:04 iGrok wrote:On July 02 2011 17:50 gtrsrs wrote:
many skills that scale with AD still do magic damage i.e. udyr's tiger stance The only skill Poppy has that does MD is Heroic Charge, which scales with AP not AD :/ Poppy Q turns the entire attack, including the normal attack damage, into magic damage.
Ah, didn't know that - the description says "attack damage".
Why didn't you give that example to begin with instead of the Udyr one -__-
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i thought
On July 02 2011 17:12 iGrok wrote:
Why get MPen if you're going AD?
was a general question, i didn't realize you meant explicitly for the poppy build listed above, sorry 
other skills that follow the AD scaling / magic damage pattern are
corki's ult
jax's leap strike and empower
kayle's righteous fury (sort of)
morde's Q
etc
while an example of a skill that does the opposite (AP scaling / physical damage) is akali's E spin attack
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I can accept that you probably more or less know better in some fashion, being 2100 and all, but the 9/0/21 thing just seems damn silly. Why do this instead of something more robust in the jungle? Just feels like if you're going to do that, you might as well play another champ.
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What's wrong with 9/0/21? If your jungle is route works it works. No need to go into the defense tree or offensive tree if you don't need to. I'm pretty sure theoddone used to go 0/9/21 on all his junglers.
And "might as well play another champ" regarding jungle mordekaizer? LOL
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On July 02 2011 19:17 Slayer91 wrote:
And "might as well play another champ" regarding jungle mordekaizer? LOL
As much as the flaming is appreciated, I don't really see your point.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
On July 02 2011 18:17 iGrok wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2011 18:07 crate wrote:On July 02 2011 18:04 iGrok wrote:On July 02 2011 17:50 gtrsrs wrote:
many skills that scale with AD still do magic damage i.e. udyr's tiger stance The only skill Poppy has that does MD is Heroic Charge, which scales with AP not AD :/ Poppy Q turns the entire attack, including the normal attack damage, into magic damage. Ah, didn't know that - the description says "attack damage". Why didn't you give that example to begin with instead of the Udyr one -__-
Poppy's Q even turns a Sheen proc into magic damage which is why AP poppy is so wonderful with a Lich Bane.
I see AD poppy more often that I see AP poppy and AP poppy definitely takes more skill to play well which is why I don't understand why someone would label it a "noob build". Besides, they're like equally viable.
Also, if you're relying on skills that scale with AD and do magic damage, AD reds are better than MPen reds in most cases. 9 Mpen is crap when you're not planning to turn it into 29.
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Okay, uh, laneshaco doesn't work. That's pretty much all there is to say on the matter; he doesn't have enough in the way of sustainability.
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poppy is op and gay so any build on her isn't unconventional, you can build whatever the fuck you want on her and win
speed garen, though, wins games
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On July 02 2011 20:57 Odds wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2011 19:17 Slayer91 wrote:
And "might as well play another champ" regarding jungle mordekaizer? LOL As much as the flaming is appreciated, I don't really see your point.
Jungle mordekaizer is pretty much a troll strat is my point. (Explanation being that mordekaizer is such a good laner and farmer and is so farm dependent not to mention having a sub par jungle route and poor ganks that jungling him is only for the lulz) Besides, I honestly don't see why going 9/0/21 has anything to do with being a bad jungle champion. If anything, if makes you a good jungle champion because you aren't forced to go into the defensive tree. (Which is what I assume you mean by "more robust".
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On July 02 2011 19:09 Odds wrote:I can accept that you probably more or less know better in some fashion, being 2100 and all, but the 9/0/21 thing just seems damn silly. Why do this instead of something more robust in the jungle? Just feels like if you're going to do that, you might as well play another champ.
You regen mana faster with 21 utility, that's why.
With 21 in defense you take slightly less dmg, with 21 in offense you deal slightly more dmg, with 21 in util you have higher movespeed, lower sum cd and cdr, doesn't really matter what you take if it works.
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On July 03 2011 01:11 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2011 20:57 Odds wrote:On July 02 2011 19:17 Slayer91 wrote:
And "might as well play another champ" regarding jungle mordekaizer? LOL As much as the flaming is appreciated, I don't really see your point. Jungle mordekaizer is pretty much a troll strat is my point. (Explanation being that mordekaizer is such a good laner and farmer and is so farm dependent not to mention having a sub par jungle route and poor ganks that jungling him is only for the lulz) Besides, I honestly don't see why going 9/0/21 has anything to do with being a bad jungle champion. If anything, if makes you a good jungle champion because you aren't forced to go into the defensive tree. (Which is what I assume you mean by "more robust".
I think it all depends on what do you call troll build:
a) suboptimal build
b) non-viable build.
Jungle morde is suboptimal, yet viable
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On July 03 2011 01:11 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2011 20:57 Odds wrote:On July 02 2011 19:17 Slayer91 wrote:
And "might as well play another champ" regarding jungle mordekaizer? LOL As much as the flaming is appreciated, I don't really see your point. Jungle mordekaizer is pretty much a troll strat is my point. (Explanation being that mordekaizer is such a good laner and farmer and is so farm dependent not to mention having a sub par jungle route and poor ganks that jungling him is only for the lulz) .
Alright, let me explain why I take such extreme offense to this, because I know it's not self-evident.
Before I 'quit' 5 months ago, I spent a ton of time playing unconventional builds and a lot of 'bad' champions. I got yelled at/trolled/ridiculed constantly simply because I did not follow the status quo, and didn't immediately accept the word of the top solo ranked players as divine gospel. I believed that the tier lists were wrong, that people were building the wrong items, and that the people at the 'top' simply didn't put as much effort into their builds as they should have.
Here's a couple things I believed, tried to tell people, and was endlessly ridiculed for:
GP was broken.
Teemo was OP after the buff to his W.
Philo stones were beyond OP, and stacking gold/5 was ridiculously strong.
Jungle Morde was viable.
Cass was strong.
TF was broken.
Guess the fuck what. 5 months later, and the metagame is finally starting to catch up to some things that I already know from my extensive research. GP got permabanned, buffed, and even more permabanned. Teemo got hit so hard with the nerf stick that he's barely a niche pick now. TF is forever banned or first picked.
And Philo stones. Oh, god, did I ever get flamed for thinking that philo stones are OP. 5 months ahead of the game and I'm 'retarded'.
My point is, I'm getting really sick of being proven right, getting no credit for it, and endless droves of people continue to accept their ignorant beliefs as fact, try to push them on me when I've already seen more.
Jungle morde is not a troll build. I've played it easily more than anyone else online, I know its ins and outs better than anyone else online, Smash included (as much respect as I have for his opinion), and have seen it work far too well and consistently to dismiss it out of hand.
I'm obviously not the greatest player out there, but my theory has proven strong time and again. It's extremely frustrating to be repeatedly ridiculed for being right. I'm certainly not always right, but I have proven that the current metagame is not always 'correct', no matter who says it is.
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On July 03 2011 01:11 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2011 20:57 Odds wrote:On July 02 2011 19:17 Slayer91 wrote:
And "might as well play another champ" regarding jungle mordekaizer? LOL As much as the flaming is appreciated, I don't really see your point. Jungle mordekaizer is pretty much a troll strat is my point. (Explanation being that mordekaizer is such a good laner and farmer and is so farm dependent not to mention having a sub par jungle route and poor ganks that jungling him is only for the lulz) Besides, I honestly don't see why going 9/0/21 has anything to do with being a bad jungle champion. If anything, if makes you a good jungle champion because you aren't forced to go into the defensive tree. (Which is what I assume you mean by "more robust".
morde isnt that good of a laner, he really gets screwed over massively in a lot of matchups. Also, its not like its terribly hard to farm your ass off as jungle morde, simply because his speed is so great and you can steal all kinds of minions from both enemy jungler and from lanes after ganking.
The only issue i have with jungle morde is that he doesnt offer utility, which is more and more becoming a high priority for junglers, due to how hard it is to gank lanes. but that really only comes into play in like the 2k lvl, so its not really a concern for like 99% of the tl community
edit: also, @ odds, i hate to burst ur bubble, and ur right about most of the stuff u posted ^, but gp really was not terribly op in any way until they changed his passive.
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Cool. You said something and it came true. Nobody else has done that before.
Have a cookie.
GP was NOT permabanned before he got that last buff lol.
There were plenty of people who were calling the Teemo OP after the W buff.
I would have told you that Cass is good at any time.
TF is more of a pubstomper than anything, did you see how he didn't live up to his perma ban status during Dreamhack?
Stacking gold/10 on the other hand isn't "ridiculously strong" unless you play at very high levels where people are making less mistakes and play safer.
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Ive tried to build pretty much all champions I own [21], the same way you build Irelia: Rush triforce and build tanky from there, it works well with Vayne.
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On July 02 2011 23:58 Odds wrote:
Okay, uh, laneshaco doesn't work. That's pretty much all there is to say on the matter; he doesn't have enough in the way of sustainability.
Tell that to TSM. Get a backdoor character, brand, have shaco solo mid and you've won the game already.
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i've always thought Cass was strong, just gotta build health very early so you can do the damage, and when you do, damn is it a shit ton of fucking damage with dem twin fangs
Edit: also, if anyne knows about Cait Jungle can you talk about it some? i've seen it done in a agame when we didnt have one, and she apparently cleared jungle and ganked bot enough time to clearly win that lane and i dont know how she did it
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I don't think AP trist drops off late game too too much. She works much like AP yi in that you have to let your team go in, screw around, get everyone low, and then you can come in, flank and ks with your w. one of my favorite things in this game is to see AP trist bounce up and down with w, getting a kill on each one. es #1.
Great thread btw.
I would suggest gunblade on Nunu, very fun.
Tank veigar (more troll but still can work)
and then classics like speed garen, solotop AP janna, and just playing Karma in general, which is an uncoventional move but SHE'S ACTUALLY REALLY GOOD.
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On July 03 2011 07:45 r33k wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2011 23:58 Odds wrote:
Okay, uh, laneshaco doesn't work. That's pretty much all there is to say on the matter; he doesn't have enough in the way of sustainability. Tell that to TSM. Get a backdoor character, brand, have shaco solo mid and you've won the game already.
I should clarify. It doesn't work in solo queue.
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On July 03 2011 07:45 r33k wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2011 23:58 Odds wrote:
Okay, uh, laneshaco doesn't work. That's pretty much all there is to say on the matter; he doesn't have enough in the way of sustainability. Tell that to TSM. Get a backdoor character, brand, have shaco solo mid and you've won the game already.
Sorry but is brand there just because he can win any lane?
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On July 03 2011 06:45 Odds wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2011 01:11 Slayer91 wrote:On July 02 2011 20:57 Odds wrote:On July 02 2011 19:17 Slayer91 wrote:
And "might as well play another champ" regarding jungle mordekaizer? LOL As much as the flaming is appreciated, I don't really see your point. Jungle mordekaizer is pretty much a troll strat is my point. (Explanation being that mordekaizer is such a good laner and farmer and is so farm dependent not to mention having a sub par jungle route and poor ganks that jungling him is only for the lulz) . Alright, let me explain why I take such extreme offense to this, because I know it's not self-evident. Before I 'quit' 5 months ago, I spent a ton of time playing unconventional builds and a lot of 'bad' champions. I got yelled at/trolled/ridiculed constantly simply because I did not follow the status quo, and didn't immediately accept the word of the top solo ranked players as divine gospel. I believed that the tier lists were wrong, that people were building the wrong items, and that the people at the 'top' simply didn't put as much effort into their builds as they should have. Here's a couple things I believed, tried to tell people, and was endlessly ridiculed for: GP was broken. Teemo was OP after the buff to his W. Philo stones were beyond OP, and stacking gold/5 was ridiculously strong. Jungle Morde was viable. Cass was strong. TF was broken. Guess the fuck what. 5 months later, and the metagame is finally starting to catch up to some things that I already know from my extensive research. GP got permabanned, buffed, and even more permabanned. Teemo got hit so hard with the nerf stick that he's barely a niche pick now. TF is forever banned or first picked. And Philo stones. Oh, god, did I ever get flamed for thinking that philo stones are OP. 5 months ahead of the game and I'm 'retarded'. My point is, I'm getting really sick of being proven right, getting no credit for it, and endless droves of people continue to accept their ignorant beliefs as fact, try to push them on me when I've already seen more. Jungle morde is not a troll build. I've played it easily more than anyone else online, I know its ins and outs better than anyone else online, Smash included (as much respect as I have for his opinion), and have seen it work far too well and consistently to dismiss it out of hand. I'm obviously not the greatest player out there, but my theory has proven strong time and again. It's extremely frustrating to be repeatedly ridiculed for being right. I'm certainly not always right, but I have proven that the current metagame is not always 'correct', no matter who says it is.
You're making a big fuss about nothing. You're just having double standards here. You said: "Why use another champion" as a rebuttal to something". My point is that it should be given that he's not the right champion to pick as a jungler but he's not like some auto lose champion. Sure, he can jungle. Is he the best choice for the job in any situation? No. So don't use "don't play him this way because other champions can do it better" as an argument.
Jungle mordekaizer viable? Sure, my jungle nasus is viable too, but I wouldn't pick jungle nasus if I were in an important ranked 5's team.
I can see why you want to go 21 defense, but sacrificing a bit of sustainability seems fine. magic penetration is really good and so is the movement speed and cdr from utility, and you need the buff duration. I would probably go 21 defense as well.
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On July 03 2011 08:58 Arthemesia wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2011 07:45 r33k wrote:On July 02 2011 23:58 Odds wrote:
Okay, uh, laneshaco doesn't work. That's pretty much all there is to say on the matter; he doesn't have enough in the way of sustainability. Tell that to TSM. Get a backdoor character, brand, have shaco solo mid and you've won the game already. Sorry but is brand there just because he can win any lane?
He's there for counterinitiation. They come close, shaco boxes and brand nukes everything. Before they can engage they are all at 60% hp or lower. We're talking about roa AP shaco.
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I'm not sure if you ever played as a melee vs brand but that guy makes it really scary for you to try to go in because he nukes so hard and kites like a boss. He's the scariest guy if I'm playing udyr.
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On July 03 2011 09:07 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2011 06:45 Odds wrote:On July 03 2011 01:11 Slayer91 wrote:On July 02 2011 20:57 Odds wrote:On July 02 2011 19:17 Slayer91 wrote:
And "might as well play another champ" regarding jungle mordekaizer? LOL As much as the flaming is appreciated, I don't really see your point. Jungle mordekaizer is pretty much a troll strat is my point. (Explanation being that mordekaizer is such a good laner and farmer and is so farm dependent not to mention having a sub par jungle route and poor ganks that jungling him is only for the lulz) . Alright, let me explain why I take such extreme offense to this, because I know it's not self-evident. Before I 'quit' 5 months ago, I spent a ton of time playing unconventional builds and a lot of 'bad' champions. I got yelled at/trolled/ridiculed constantly simply because I did not follow the status quo, and didn't immediately accept the word of the top solo ranked players as divine gospel. I believed that the tier lists were wrong, that people were building the wrong items, and that the people at the 'top' simply didn't put as much effort into their builds as they should have. Here's a couple things I believed, tried to tell people, and was endlessly ridiculed for: GP was broken. Teemo was OP after the buff to his W. Philo stones were beyond OP, and stacking gold/5 was ridiculously strong. Jungle Morde was viable. Cass was strong. TF was broken. Guess the fuck what. 5 months later, and the metagame is finally starting to catch up to some things that I already know from my extensive research. GP got permabanned, buffed, and even more permabanned. Teemo got hit so hard with the nerf stick that he's barely a niche pick now. TF is forever banned or first picked. And Philo stones. Oh, god, did I ever get flamed for thinking that philo stones are OP. 5 months ahead of the game and I'm 'retarded'. My point is, I'm getting really sick of being proven right, getting no credit for it, and endless droves of people continue to accept their ignorant beliefs as fact, try to push them on me when I've already seen more. Jungle morde is not a troll build. I've played it easily more than anyone else online, I know its ins and outs better than anyone else online, Smash included (as much respect as I have for his opinion), and have seen it work far too well and consistently to dismiss it out of hand. I'm obviously not the greatest player out there, but my theory has proven strong time and again. It's extremely frustrating to be repeatedly ridiculed for being right. I'm certainly not always right, but I have proven that the current metagame is not always 'correct', no matter who says it is. You're making a big fuss about nothing. You're just having double standards here. You said: "Why use another champion" as a rebuttal to something". My point is that it should be given that he's not the right champion to pick as a jungler but he's not like some auto lose champion. Sure, he can jungle. Is he the best choice for the job in any situation? No. So don't use "don't play him this way because other champions can do it better" as an argument. Jungle mordekaizer viable? Sure, my jungle nasus is viable too, but I wouldn't pick jungle nasus if I were in an important ranked 5's team. I can see why you want to go 21 defense, but sacrificing a bit of sustainability seems fine. magic penetration is really good and so is the movement speed and cdr from utility, and you need the buff duration. I would probably go 21 defense as well.
The primary reason mord is a great jungle is he clears it faster and more sustainably than anyone else. You can use that to farm insanely fast and essentially behave as a third solo Lane that also ganks other lanes sometimes and shuts down the enemy jungle. It makes sense, then, to use your runes and masteries in service of getting that farm really quickly and safely, rather than gimping your farm in favor of making your crappy level 4 gank slightly better. Consistency is important in strategy, and while 21 utility is certainly good, I dont think its optimal. I could be wrong about that, but it just hasnt worked as well for me for these reasons.
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that's the thing though - the jungle has a set amount of gold you can get per clear, not per time cleared. clearing the jungle fast gives you an opportunity to gank, but in no way can mordekaiser be considered a good or even optimal ganker. so you clear your jungle really fast and then what? steal farm from your lanes? run into the enemy jungle? morde has no CC or escapes so counterjungling is risky at best. you can't treat the jungle like a solo lane because you simply don't get the farm that a solo lane does. that's why junglers are being relegated to support roles - ganks are hard to pull off even with a champ with CC, and you don't get the item advantage to carry. morde just doesn't offer anything that another jungler doesn't do better. take a look at the best/most used jungling champs right now - nunu, warwick, xin zhao, jarvan, etc. they all have at least 1 form of CC, and many/most have a buff that they can give to their true carry. morde has an armor/MR shield and some nukes. granted, i do think his ult is really really good when used properly, but then you have to ask yourself if giving up an entire champ slot just for a single skill is really worth it? and i think that you'll find most people will say no, it's not, and pick a different/better jungler
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Hybrid trist is really good btw:
dblade
rageblade
gunblade
whatever
Also triforce cho with all tank items after kinda wrecks face too from top lane.
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On July 03 2011 11:14 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:Also triforce cho with all tank items after kinda wrecks face too from top lane.
I've known this for a long time.
Another good choice is triforce karthus solo top, he's got some insane dmg.
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On July 03 2011 11:14 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Hybrid trist is really good btw:
dblade
rageblade
gunblade
whatever
Also triforce cho with all tank items after kinda wrecks face too from top lane.
atma's would be really cool on triforce cho
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On July 03 2011 09:40 gtrsrs wrote:
that's the thing though - the jungle has a set amount of gold you can get per clear, not per time cleared. clearing the jungle fast gives you an opportunity to gank, but in no way can mordekaiser be considered a good or even optimal ganker. so you clear your jungle really fast and then what? steal farm from your lanes? run into the enemy jungle? morde has no CC or escapes so counterjungling is risky at best. you can't treat the jungle like a solo lane because you simply don't get the farm that a solo lane does. that's why junglers are being relegated to support roles - ganks are hard to pull off even with a champ with CC, and you don't get the item advantage to carry. morde just doesn't offer anything that another jungler doesn't do better. take a look at the best/most used jungling champs right now - nunu, warwick, xin zhao, jarvan, etc. they all have at least 1 form of CC, and many/most have a buff that they can give to their true carry. morde has an armor/MR shield and some nukes. granted, i do think his ult is really really good when used properly, but then you have to ask yourself if giving up an entire champ slot just for a single skill is really worth it? and i think that you'll find most people will say no, it's not, and pick a different/better jungler
You make a lot of damn solid points, actually.
After you've cleared your jungle, you have a couple options. If a lane is pushed, you can go gank it: you probably won't (but surprisingly often do) get a kill, but you've done your job at least in terms of making the laner waste one or both summoners.
Running into the enemy jungle is a pretty solid option, actually, because of how fast you can clear creeps. You can steal wraiths in particular faster than any other jungler, by far, because of your insane AoE damage, and do so at little risk, especially if you have a red buff. You do an enormous amount of upfront burst with just your Q, and you can typically force them to retreat before their lane can come to assist: and of course you then abscond with as much haste as is possible. A tad risky, but no more so than if you were to do it with Warwick. You obviously just can't really do it if your ghost is down.
'Stealing farm' from the lanes is pretty legitimate as well, in some circumstances. After a gank, if you get a kill, (or 2 bot) you can very often straight up kill the tower because of, again, Morde being Morde. If not, you can still help the laner clear the creep wave instantly, and then get HIS help in causing trouble in the enemy jungle, or ganking, or whatever. He misses out on a bit of farm, but the tradeoff is usually worth it, particularly because the tower will take a bunch of damage from all the creeps, and the lane opponents will obviously lose a lot of farm to the tower while they're dead/forced to retreat. When you're doing this to every lane, it can be extremely frustrating for the enemy team to maintain any sort of map control, because your team is free to run willy-nilly all over the place with little penalty while damaging towers.
Also, your ganks suck at the beginning, granted: but morde has a much, MUCH better midgame than most, and maybe all other junglers. After you get your Bilgewater (which you can get much faster if you open 1/21/8 and vamp scepter, which is why I advocate those for now), Morde is suddenly an insane ganker with a 3s 50% slow and unparalleled damage output. Plus, if you get a ghost, that person can pretty much instantly kiss their tower goodbye, or even better, if it's mid/bot, you get a free dragon.
This gets even better, obviously, when you get the full Hextech upgrade. Hextech -> Q -> W -> E -> Q -> R HURTS.
I may have to give some more tries to 1/8/21 or something and the MS% quints, because you make a good point about ganking. It may be worth it.
Anyway, I hope this makes a bit more sense now. Morde sucks a bit at the early levels, but he gets past the early levels quickly and has an absolutely monstrous mid- and end-game if played correctly.
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I'll start exerimenting with your Mordekaiser build.
Unconventional is probably my key word for what's enjoyable with lol. A favourite of mine, for some kind of contribution to the thread, is 5tank all fortify. When people never has faced such a thing, for me around lvl22, there's a lot of joy to collect!
Teemo is my guy though, so I'll keep my eyes open for your unconventional teemo
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I know this is an obvious (and perhaps redundant) point, but it's worth remembering that unlike creeps in lanes who arrive at fixed intervals throughout the game, jungle creeps respawn based on the time that they were killed. The faster you kill them, the sooner they respawn; the more gold you can potentially earn.
Again, it's an obvious point and I'm not sure how much difference this actually makes or, realistically, how much more gold can be earned by a faster jungler, but I'm sure that junglers can still put significant pressure on a team even without amazing ganks.
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Honestly, I'm open to trying out different things. Morde as a jungler seems hilariously fun and seems doable. He has the base skill set to make it through. I will definitely try it.
On July 03 2011 12:39 Odds wrote:
Also, your ganks suck at the beginning, granted: but morde has a much, MUCH better midgame than most, and maybe all other junglers.
The above is when I start having serious problems with what you are typing. I AM dubious about your postings/claims when you start typing out the things such as Morde having the best mid-game of any other jungler. Is he really faster than a Nunu jungle? Does he really do more than Nunu can in mid-game? I don't think so. Granted Nunu might be an exception due to how much he currently offers. I can also say the same of an amumu jungle. I believe amumu has quite an easy stun-lock combo that I have a hard time placing Morde even before him. I can't imagine that at all. I also cannot believe he has a better mid-game than these champs. For example, Nunu and Amumu with just their ultimates are no joke. Nunu is also an exceptional counter-jungle champ. If you want to call Morde a good pick, that's fine. Just calling him the best jungle seems like overlooking a few of the other well known(and easier!) champs.
I'm pretty sure some of my phrasing is really bad. Sorry
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I hate to be that guy, and I love Jungle Morde (tried him twice so far - I haven't gotten the hang of it yet I think), but could I get some feedback on LS/AS Ashe?
+ Show Spoiler +On July 02 2011 15:37 iGrok wrote:Posted this in the Ashe thread somewhere, but I've really updated it, sooo..... Robin-Hood AsheThe thought process behind this build was: "What attributes of characters do I find 'Annoying'? How can I make Ashe 'Annoying'? The stuff I find 'annoying' is probably really damn good." And do you know what I think the single most annoying thing in LoL is? When Warwick just won't die because he's regaining Health so fast. So I set out to build an Ashe that just wouldn't die. Then I realized that lifesteal actually works really well with Ashe, because she is naturally reliant on auto-attacks. This build is very difficult early game, but once you hit 3 items and boots becomes damn near unstoppable. It is also very dependent on enemy team composition. If they have multiple stuns, use Chauster's Ashe, not this one. Masteries:21/0/9Offensive tree: 3 Deadliness, 1 Archmage's Savvy, 3 Alacrity, 4 Sorcery, 3 Sunder, 3 Brute Force, 3 Lethality, 1 Havoc Utility tree: 2 Good Hands, 3 Perseverance, 4 Awareness Summoner Spells:Flash + Teleportor Flash + Cleanse (If they have multiple stuns - I would recommend going someone else if they have more than 1 stun, but Cleanse is an alternative) Runes:9 Attack Speed Marks 9 Flat Armor Seals 9 Flat Magic Resist Glyphs 3 Attack Speed Quints Thats +25.5% Attack Speed,+12.69 Armor and + 13.41 MR. You need all of these things for early game. Skill order:WEWEWRQ;R>W>E=Qor WEWQWRE;R>W>E=QMaxing W at level 9 has top priority because of the huge difference in cooldowns and the damage. Don't underestimate the added dps you'll deal to minions with better Volley. Get Q earlier if you opposing mid is over-aggressive so you can set up a gank, but make sure you get Hawkshot, both for the gold and for scouting ganks. This build is dependent on cashflow and not dying. If your opponents in sidelanes are being easily gankable, go Q >E. If they're playing really safe, go E>Q. Build:- Vampiric Scepter + Potion. You'll have to wait until after minions start spawning. You have time to run out and defend your jungler or whatever, b back to buy the pot, teleport up to mid turret, and still make it to your blue in time to leash it if you need to.
- B. F. Sword
- The Bloodthirster
- Boots of Speed (If you can wait until you have 1250 to finish the bloodthirster and get boots in one trip, even better.
- Bezerkers' Greaves
- The Bloodthirster 2
- Phantom Dancer
- Phantom Dancer 2
- Infinity Edge
- Sell Boots, PD 3 or LW if they built armor
If you have trouble in your lane, get both scepter and boots asap. Call in a gank if you have to just to scare them off and buy yourself some farming time. FARMING TIME IS ALSO HEALING TIME when you've got the scepter. Just keep up that autoattack! Don't be afraid to push, you've got hawkshot and flash to escape any ganks. In fact, you should be pushing - if you aren't you're probably not stealing enough health from the minions to make up for tha absent health from having no Doran's. In the beginning, you will be VERY squishy, but once your first BT is up you'll stay at full health pretty much all the time. ElixiersRed Elixir is usually good to get all game, but usually you're better off saving until you get to the second Bloodthirster. Exceptions are if you're being beaten badly in mid, if you're too squishy to farm. Green Elixier is a must after you get the second Bloodthirster. Don't underestimate the effects of combining lifesteal and attack speed. Plus you'll get your stacks up much quicker. Blue Elixir is not very important. Get it if your teammates are grabbing the blue buff. Grab the Oracle's Elixir if they're stealthing endgame. You won't die often (after your first PD) with this build, so its worth the investment. Picking off a stealther who thinks you're an easy target is fun and free money. BuffsThere is one stage where you really need the buffs - between the Bloodthirsters. You need to build your stacks and earn enough money for the second one as quickly as possible. Once you have the first bloodthirster, go grab red if your jungler can spare it. Other than that, take them as needed. I tend to leave Q on, so I run short of mana. CombatDon't Die. This is really, really important. I know that Veigar has 10% health, but once you kill him you're going to die. Its more important to live, keep farming, and keep stacking. Stay out of the center of teamfights. If enemy melee is chasing you, volley and keep running. Throw your arrow if the fight isn't going on Use flash, particularly if a stun is coming. If you're low and you have the bloodthirster, heal by jungling. You should never be forced to head home for the purpose of healing. Get those Bloodthirster Stacks up as fast as you fucking can. +100 damage per shot and +25% lifesteal each. So each autoattack you're doing shittons of damage. Awesome. Every time you can sneak off to grab some jungle or minion kills and your jungler can spare them, do it. Just don't get caught on the other side of the map with no support - see paragraph 1. Once you have your first PD, grab a green and blue pot and start using only autoattacks with Frost Shot. You can just kind of 'Shark Mode' with your team and you'll start getting ridiculous numbers of kills. Continue to farm/jungle when you need health. Blue buff really comes in handy if you're leaving Q on a lot, and red buff is really nice if you die and need to farm even quicker, but not really necessary otherwise. Once you have your 2nd PD and IE, you'll be untouchable. You'll also be the only one even close to max items unless someone was seriously fed. Then you get your third PD, you'll crit every shot for over 800 easily through armor, at a very rapid (2.4ish?) rate, and be stealing half that damage in life. Basically, from now on you're an Ashe who can't be killed. You out-dps most players, you regain life stupid fast, you have slows to kite and hunt down. You have the Arrow primarily for initiating and picking off weak running enemies out of range - this isn't an AP build, don't get confused and try to do massive damage with it, Arrows are for Stuns not Damage. Use it to stun long enough to get in range with that Frost Shot, and then laugh as they try to kill you, realize they can't, try to run, and realize they still can't do that either. Remember to always follow the golden rule: Don't Fucking Die. Building up the Bloodthirster stacks is annoying :/. The only thing you have to fear is Stuns - but those are a death sentence. Silence doesn't work on you since you're an autoattacker anyways, but if you get stunned you're still ridiculously squishy. Pick off any CCers first. Remember that VOLLEY DOES NOT DO LIFESTEAL. You can initiate with volley if you like, but if you're taking damage stick to autoattacks. For bonus LoLz, once you have max items go solo the Baron. As Ashe. Without dropping below half health.
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that's not a "non-conventional" ashe build it's just simply a less good ashe build
ashe should be getting IE 99% of the time as her first item and following it up 90% of the time with either last whisper or phantom dancer
21/0/9 is standard
flash/anything is standard though you see flash/exhaust more often than anything now
bloodthirster doesn't synergize well with crit. it's just not a good build. if you're getting crit you might as well make your crit be worth more and get the IE.
opening vamp scepter will lose you the lane against an equally skilled opponent 100% of the time, especially on ashe. your only chance to not get out-right killed by a lane opponent if you open vamp scepter is to constantly auto attack to keep your health up, but then you push the lane and the jungler kills you
E before Q is totally unnecessary. frost arrows are key to ashe play, not +1g for the ~30 creep kills you'll get between level 2 and 4
honestly bloodthirster is worse on ashe than any other ranged carry because she's got no AS steroid like trist/mf and her skills don't scale off AD especially well
so i'm not trying to deride you or anything but i wouldn't call this an "unconventional" build so much as a "suboptimal." trade the thirster for an IE, follow with LW/PD/both, then get defensive items. more than one PD is overkill
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also just to argue semantics at this point, most people call "robin hood" when they hit a really long arrow that either gets a kill or sets up a kill (at least from my experience) so a "robin hood" build would be more based around CDR for more arrows. but ofc that's just semantics 
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from all my experiences with the master of unconventional builds, stuffedturkey, i'd have to say the #1 best unconventional strategy is buy gunblade. on everyone.
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Yeah, I've heard all that before. All I can say to that is go try it, and give it a really good shot. In super-high elo its probably suboptimal, but as far as pub games go its really nice. And since ashe is a damned good ranged carry, you can pick her and play standard if one of the preconditions isn't met.
Regarding E before Q, the reason I like to get it early is because she pushes so hard, and I actually use the HS to scout for ganks early on. Plus, the extra gold really does help, at least in the timings I always seem to find myself in, which is needing to b right at 1650 gold for the B.F. Sword. Opening Vamp Scepter mean you definitely need to get HS by level 4 though, since the jungler will be finishing his run.
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Imo for botlane Ashe in EU style games you actually should consider CDR Ashe again. IE is clearly superior against teams with several really tanky champs, but when there are 2 APs taking solo lanes then Volley spam is REALLY good.
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On July 04 2011 05:42 barbsq wrote:
from all my experiences with the master of unconventional builds, stuffedturkey, i'd have to say the #1 best unconventional strategy is buy gunblade. on everyone.
Gunblade on every champ is pretty legit.
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On July 04 2011 05:55 spinesheath wrote:
Imo for botlane Ashe in EU style games you actually should consider CDR Ashe again. IE is clearly superior against teams with several really tanky champs, but when there are 2 APs taking solo lanes then Volley spam is REALLY good.
I've tried the CDR build recently, but I don't have much mana for volley spam, do you need to run mana regen blues as well?
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On July 04 2011 06:17 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 05:55 spinesheath wrote:
Imo for botlane Ashe in EU style games you actually should consider CDR Ashe again. IE is clearly superior against teams with several really tanky champs, but when there are 2 APs taking solo lanes then Volley spam is REALLY good. I've tried the CDR build recently, but I don't have much mana for volley spam, do you need to run mana regen blues as well?
just go for the oldschool chalice build, works really well with that =P
Manamune also is a funny choice
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My unconventional builds:
Triforce roam Gragas with smite for counterjungling (still not sure how well this one actually works)
CDR-rush Zilean (kindlegem + ionians + runes/masteries = 40% CDR for <2k gold)
Solotop Spellvamp Nunu, pioneered by I forget who unfortunately, but they inspired me to try it myself (rush revolver and spirit visage)
Double Zeal Mundo, which is exactly what it sounds like
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On July 04 2011 06:42 Tooplark wrote:
My unconventional builds:
Triforce roam Gragas with smite for counterjungling (still not sure how well this one actually works)
CDR-rush Zilean (kindlegem + ionians + runes/masteries = 40% CDR for <2k gold)
Solotop Spellvamp Nunu, pioneered by I forget who unfortunately, but they inspired me to try it myself (rush revolver and spirit visage)
Double Zeal Mundo, which is exactly what it sounds like
Btw its much more cost-efficient to just rush Phantom Dancer. o_o
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On July 04 2011 06:17 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 05:55 spinesheath wrote:
Imo for botlane Ashe in EU style games you actually should consider CDR Ashe again. IE is clearly superior against teams with several really tanky champs, but when there are 2 APs taking solo lanes then Volley spam is REALLY good. I've tried the CDR build recently, but I don't have much mana for volley spam, do you need to run mana regen blues as well?
Yep. I'm currently trying out this build:
21/9/0
offense: taking 4/4 CDR (and 15% MPen for the lulz), Exhaust mastery, 3/3 Apen of course, 2/2 minion damage for ezmode lasthitting, the rest should be obvious.
defense: 3/3 mres, 3/3 SoS, 2/3 armor, 1/2 reduced minion damage
APen/MP5L/MP5L/APen
Boots+3 or DBlade depending on the matchup and a coin toss
Then it goes something like this:
Brutalizer -> Kindlegem -> IE -> PD
Boots depending on the game: CDR, Zerkers, Swifties, Mercs
If you feel you need extra defenses early, get the Ruby Crystal instead of DBlades.
Sometimes you want to finish that Reverie for some extra CDR, MP5 and the ultimate initiation combo: Cast Arrow, charge in with Reverie! Your support won't have the money to afford a Reverie anytime soon, anyways.
Ghostblade is a good item even without the increased duration on the active, but currently I feel that the flow of this build is really good and getting that Ghostblade before an IE might mess it up. I haven't tried it yet though.
You will still be rather short on mana even with double MP5L, but it's manageable.
The idea behind this build is that the standard EU lineup doesn't come with a lot of armor - basically only the jungler builds armor and some supports provide armor auras/buffs. The main damage dealers are the solo laners who are typically dealing magic damage so your enemies will have to build MRes over Armor on most champs. That leaves you with a perfect setup for Volley spam to shine during midgame: Low armor values against high flat APen.
Another reason to focus on Volley is that around level 6-13 or so, Ashe can't really autoattack burst casters very well as they will just kill her.
I do not advise this build against champs like Singed. For killing high armor melee targets, IE->LW is definitely superior right now.
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On July 04 2011 06:47 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 06:42 Tooplark wrote:
My unconventional builds:
Triforce roam Gragas with smite for counterjungling (still not sure how well this one actually works)
CDR-rush Zilean (kindlegem + ionians + runes/masteries = 40% CDR for <2k gold)
Solotop Spellvamp Nunu, pioneered by I forget who unfortunately, but they inspired me to try it myself (rush revolver and spirit visage)
Double Zeal Mundo, which is exactly what it sounds like Btw its much more cost-efficient to just rush Phantom Dancer. o_o
You're right, it is after the cost reduction to critcloak. Double Zeal still feels trollier, though.
Followup is either IE, Warmogs, or Randuins.
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On July 04 2011 02:43 ketchup wrote:
The above is when I start having serious problems with what you are typing. I AM dubious about your postings/claims when you start typing out the things such as Morde having the best mid-game of any other jungler.
Fair enough. I'm not good enough with every jungler to really say without qualification that he's better than everyone else, so we can maybe call that an exaggeration in some respects. He has a strong midgame, but so do some others. Call him a good jungle, maybe a tier below Nocturne for example. That said:
On July 04 2011 02:43 ketchup wrote: Is he really faster than a Nunu jungle?
Yes.
On July 04 2011 02:43 ketchup wrote: Does he really do more than Nunu can in mid-game?
God, yes. He just doesn't have as much CC until he gets his Bilgewater.
On July 04 2011 02:43 ketchup wrote: I can also say the same of an amumu jungle. I believe amumu has quite an easy stun-lock combo that I have a hard time placing Morde even before him. I can't imagine that at all.
A good way to look at it is that Morde is better at the little things, and Mumu is better at the immediately apparent things. Morde can farm much faster and more safely: he is not easily counterjungled. Mumu on the other hand is extremely vulnerable in his jungle and dependent on getting the blue buff. He has much more CC and utility in some respects, and is more directly useful in some teamfights: but that's only if he can make it through the early game without getting his jungle crippled by a strong opposing jungle (eg. morde!). It's easy also to look at Mumu's ult and say that he is much better overall, until you realize that Morde getting a single Caitlyn or Ashe ghost can often instantly end the game.
On July 04 2011 02:43 ketchup wrote:Just calling him the best jungle seems like overlooking a few of the other well known(and easier!) champs.
Sorry, I don't believe I called him the 'best' jungle (except in Brasil, huehue). Just really strong in some respects.
On July 04 2011 02:43 ketchup wrote:I'm pretty sure some of my phrasing is really bad. Sorry
Mine too 
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i don't think mumu is really that vulnerable in his jungle
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
You guys haven't jungled Urgot.
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I've been trying Rumble Jungle during the time I wanted to practice him and nobody would jungle (also, I got rolled by ManyReason with it). I'm not exactly sure how to optimally build him, but QQing your way through the camps is reasonably fast, and you can give out blues from lvl 1 since he doesn't need them at all.
His ganks are super scary because if you hit E they have to blow summoners, and Q does a crapton of damage. Most importantly, once you hit 6, his retarded ult range can let you setup hilarious ganks/counterganks which they can't see coming.
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smiteless jungle yi.
go whatever the fuck you want.
roll face.
true story.
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On July 05 2011 01:48 Soloside wrote:
smiteless jungle yi.
go whatever the fuck you want.
roll face.
true story.
Could you post the guide again? Too hard to find in a 900+ page thread even with google.
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So I've been trying Odds' jungle morde. I must say I'm 2:1 with it right now in ranked and the one loss was 4v5 which we almost won.
Will try it some more, but doing it in normals is too ez and trying it in ranked is too hard as 90% of the time people start crying and q dodge.
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On July 05 2011 04:42 Ryuu314 wrote:
So I've been trying Odds' jungle morde. I must say I'm 2:1 with it right now in ranked and the one loss was 4v5 which we almost won.
Will try it some more, but doing it in normals is too ez and trying it in ranked is too hard as 90% of the time people start crying and q dodge.
Awesome. I think i still recommend the specific build with armor quints and 1/21/8 into sorc shoes, bilgewater-> hextech, and actually follow it with triforce before tank items: you're not terribly quick until your triforce is done, but you do loads of damage in battles and get the bilgewater insanely fast because you can start with a vamp scepter.
What's your summoner name?
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United States47024 Posts
On July 04 2011 13:27 Odds wrote:
A good way to look at it is that Morde is better at the little things, and Mumu is better at the immediately apparent things. Morde can farm much faster and more safely: he is not easily counterjungled. Mumu on the other hand is extremely vulnerable in his jungle and dependent on getting the blue buff. He has much more CC and utility in some respects, and is more directly useful in some teamfights: but that's only if he can make it through the early game without getting his jungle crippled by a strong opposing jungle (eg. morde!). It's easy also to look at Mumu's ult and say that he is much better overall, until you realize that Morde getting a single Caitlyn or Ashe ghost can often instantly end the game.
Somewhat off-topic, but this is actually a huge misconception IMO. Amumu is not that easy to counterjungle, and he is reasonably safe.
1) He has one of the fastest clears of any of the popular junglers. This makes it hard for anyone to take his camps, without him reciprocating. Against slower junglers, you can actually accomplish blue->wraith jack yourself at almost zero risk.
2) He can start pretty much anywhere, including counterjungle starts like a level 1 wraith jack. Blue maximizes speed, but he's fast enough anyway that he won't fall behind with small jungle clears, even if he loses his blue. He has to jungle more defensively and can't gank as often, but his pre-6 ganks aren't terribly strong anyway.
3) Post-Philo you drop your blue dependence.
4) Running 21-defense and starting cloth+5pot (which both TheOddOne and Dan Dinh do), you can finish a full clear with near full HP and 1-2 pots remaining, depending on how good your leash was and what runes you use. You're not at risk anywhere during your first clear. The base stat and E buff were huge for this, as previously Amumu did get pretty damn low in the jungle. Regrowth starts are more fragile, but that's an intentional tradeoff for a faster Philo Stone.
5) You have a mobility skill in the jungle that, depending on where you are in the jungle, and what camps are up, can act as an escape. If you get caught at red and don't think you can fight, you don't even need to blow Flash, just bandage to your minigols, and walk out.
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On July 05 2011 03:30 JackDino wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 01:48 Soloside wrote:
smiteless jungle yi.
go whatever the fuck you want.
roll face.
true story. Could you post the guide again? Too hard to find in a 900+ page thread even with google.
Your wish is my command.
On May 04 2011 12:13 BloodNinja wrote:It is TOO LATE. I have found it: Show nested quote +SCENE: A dark room, with a desk and desklamp at its center.
SOLOSIDE: My young padawan, today I shall teach you the secret to jungling without Smite with Master Yi.
HAZMAT: Yes, my lord?
SOLOSIDE: You press Q.
HAZMAT: Yes?
SOLOSIDE: And click on some random creep.
HAZMAT: And?
SOLOSIDE: And that is it.
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On July 05 2011 04:58 Odds wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 04:42 Ryuu314 wrote:
So I've been trying Odds' jungle morde. I must say I'm 2:1 with it right now in ranked and the one loss was 4v5 which we almost won.
Will try it some more, but doing it in normals is too ez and trying it in ranked is too hard as 90% of the time people start crying and q dodge. Awesome. I think i still recommend the specific build with armor quints and 1/21/8 into sorc shoes, bilgewater-> hextech, and actually follow it with triforce before tank items: you're not terribly quick until your triforce is done, but you do loads of damage in battles and get the bilgewater insanely fast because you can start with a vamp scepter. What's your summoner name?
Caesor.
I open with 1/21/8 with armor quints and regrowth+pot. Will probably try vamp scepter first next time I manage to land a jungle morde lol
EDIT: Taking advantage of chat being down to spam jungle morde 'cause this way teammates can't yell at me
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How many champs do you think make good use of triforce as a primary item? Here's my list:
Corki
Blitzcrank (standard)
Ezreal
Gangplank
Gragas
Irelia (standard)
Jax
Lee Sin (no mana, but its all good)
Maokai
Morde (after gunblade if you're super fed)
Nasus (standard)
Nunu
Poppy
Trundle
Twisted Fate
Urgot
Vayne
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OK, so I got no response in the general discussion thread, so I'd probably get a better response here.
On Hybrid characters like Kayle and Ezreal, I have been trying a PD build, but I don't think it is very standard. It basically goes Zerker boots > Phantom Dancer > Hybrid Items (Rageblade for kayle, whatever for Ezreal).
I have had quite a bit of success with the build on Kayle, but I haven't played Ez enough to know if it really works.
Would this build work at like 14-1500 elo, or does it only work because I am facing scrubs?
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On July 05 2011 12:39 57 Corvette wrote:
OK, so I got no response in the general discussion thread, so I'd probably get a better response here.
On Hybrid characters like Kayle and Ezreal, I have been trying a PD build, but I don't think it is very standard. It basically goes Zerker boots > Phantom Dancer > Hybrid Items (Rageblade for kayle, whatever for Ezreal).
I have had quite a bit of success with the build on Kayle, but I haven't played Ez enough to know if it really works.
Would this build work at like 14-1500 elo, or does it only work because I am facing scrubs?
PD rushing is only when facing scrubs.
Your ezrael will be terribly behind in damage output rushing zerks + pd.
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On July 05 2011 12:39 57 Corvette wrote:
OK, so I got no response in the general discussion thread, so I'd probably get a better response here.
On Hybrid characters like Kayle and Ezreal, I have been trying a PD build, but I don't think it is very standard. It basically goes Zerker boots > Phantom Dancer > Hybrid Items (Rageblade for kayle, whatever for Ezreal).
I have had quite a bit of success with the build on Kayle, but I haven't played Ez enough to know if it really works.
Would this build work at like 14-1500 elo, or does it only work because I am facing scrubs?
Ezrael isn't hybrid lol, anyone building Ez hybrid should build udyr kennen and pant hybrid aswell(and many others).
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On July 05 2011 16:07 JackDino wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 12:39 57 Corvette wrote:
OK, so I got no response in the general discussion thread, so I'd probably get a better response here.
On Hybrid characters like Kayle and Ezreal, I have been trying a PD build, but I don't think it is very standard. It basically goes Zerker boots > Phantom Dancer > Hybrid Items (Rageblade for kayle, whatever for Ezreal).
I have had quite a bit of success with the build on Kayle, but I haven't played Ez enough to know if it really works.
Would this build work at like 14-1500 elo, or does it only work because I am facing scrubs? Ezrael isn't hybrid lol, anyone building Ez hybrid should build udyr kennen and pant hybrid aswell(and many others).
kennen works better being a stunbot ad carry.
true story.
you WILL beat 99% of people in a solo lane.
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Aspd Cho
Had a game where cho went berserk sudenly after 40 minute standart tank game and wiped whole enemy team .... Roa / Abysal scep / Rabadon / Mpen boots / Nashor tooth / Malady
His E hit for 200 magic dmg
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Tank ashe, Warmog, Atmas, Triforce, Frozen Heart,CDR boots, trolololol.
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On July 05 2011 19:23 NightWalks wrote:Aspd Cho Had a game where cho went berserk sudenly after 40 minute standart tank game and wiped whole enemy team .... Roa / Abysal scep / Rabadon / Mpen boots / Nashor tooth / Malady His E hit for 200 magic dmg
Tanky dps cho is better. Wit's end, Atmas, FoN, GA etc.
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On July 05 2011 19:23 NightWalks wrote:Aspd Cho Had a game where cho went berserk sudenly after 40 minute standart tank game and wiped whole enemy team .... Roa / Abysal scep / Rabadon / Mpen boots / Nashor tooth / Malady His E hit for 200 magic dmg
I wonder why people are saying this is better than that, and arguing the finer points of jungle morde when this is suppose to be a discussion on unconventional builds
That Cho build is pretty standard ap build except for the last 2 items pretty much. AP cho rapes that is a fact and not really unconventional. A bit of attack speed is an interesting variant though.
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That Cho build is pretty standard ap build except for the last 2 items pretty much. AP cho rapes that is a fact and not really unconventional. A bit of attack speed is an interesting variant though.
Those 2 items made hilarious sight when 5x enemy ran back to base and big mean cho chased them shreding off MR and then E'd them hiting 3x + each time
PS : Does E apply on hit effects ? aka GP Q
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On July 05 2011 11:58 Dezzimal wrote:
How many champs do you think make good use of triforce as a primary item? Here's my list:
Corki
Blitzcrank (standard)
Ezreal
Gangplank
Gragas
Irelia (standard)
Jax
Lee Sin (no mana, but its all good)
Maokai
Morde (after gunblade if you're super fed)
Nasus (standard)
Nunu
Poppy
Trundle
Twisted Fate
Urgot
Vayne
+
Alistar
Jarvan
Shaco
Xin Zhao
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triforce good on almost anyone =D
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On July 05 2011 22:17 byFd wrote:
triforce good on almost anyone =D
you should talk to my partner in crime Caller.
We be Triforce trolling normals. 24/7
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On July 05 2011 23:07 Soloside wrote:you should talk to my partner in crime Caller. We be Triforce trolling normals. 24/7
hm Triforce Tuesday, i think i know what i'll do later :D
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On July 04 2011 08:03 Tooplark wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 06:47 Shikyo wrote:On July 04 2011 06:42 Tooplark wrote:
My unconventional builds:
Triforce roam Gragas with smite for counterjungling (still not sure how well this one actually works)
CDR-rush Zilean (kindlegem + ionians + runes/masteries = 40% CDR for <2k gold)
Solotop Spellvamp Nunu, pioneered by I forget who unfortunately, but they inspired me to try it myself (rush revolver and spirit visage)
Double Zeal Mundo, which is exactly what it sounds like Btw its much more cost-efficient to just rush Phantom Dancer. o_o You're right, it is after the cost reduction to critcloak. Double Zeal still feels trollier, though. Followup is either IE, Warmogs, or Randuins.
plz write up a guide. im intrigued
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United States47024 Posts
On July 05 2011 21:44 NightWalks wrote:Show nested quote +That Cho build is pretty standard ap build except for the last 2 items pretty much. AP cho rapes that is a fact and not really unconventional. A bit of attack speed is an interesting variant though.
Those 2 items made hilarious sight when 5x enemy ran back to base and big mean cho chased them shreding off MR and then E'd them hiting 3x + each time PS : Does E apply on hit effects ? aka GP Q
No. E doesn't apply on-hits in an AoE. It DOES, however, apply Rylai's. As such, I would build AS Cho with Rylais, Malady, Wit's End--tank items as needed.
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Running kogmaw in general.
Or ap into ad hybrid kog which I have lots of success with. Though it might have been the old hextech revolver that made him good, which was essential god damn vlad breaking the item.
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Trollmundo guide, as per request:
Take two of Ghost/Exhaust/Flash/Teleport/Cleanse/Ignite. Ghost/Exhaust is my standard.
Run 21/0/9 or 9/21/0 or 1/14/15 with aspd or armpen/armor/mr/armpen or movespeed
Open doran shield or regrowth pendant, take a solo.
Level R>Q>E/W. Leveling E vs W is a tough decision and mostly depends on if you're afk farming
If you have an advantageous lane, which isn't too likely, or your lane opponent is a chump, which is quite likely, go for the kill at level 2.
Advantageous lanes for Mundo are most nukers and some ranged DPS.
In a disadvantageous lane, just last hit with cleaver. if they try to zone you, dance around and cleaver. If you can't cleaver, don't pick Mundo. Cleaver is your best friend. Mundo never loses a lane if he can cleaver properly.
By level 6 you should be farming like mad. You can take risks and just heal off afterwards. By level 6 you should be able to push to their tower and not get ganked at all. If they leave your lane for a second, take their tower. Mundo kills towers super fast.
That was all standard Mundo. Trollmundo is mostly in the item build.
If you get 3,350 gold or more by first back, get boots and warmogs.
Then pick up a Zeal and start into FoN and Atma.
Otherwise, start building a Zeal. Then decide whether you want more deeps (PD IE) or more tank (Force of Atmogs). Pick up a QSS if they have lots of Ignites and/or some long disables. Take Randuins if you're worried about autoattack champs. If you have cleanse, take Zerks or sometimes Swifties.
Always be pushing open lanes. Learn to juke, to sense incoming ganks, to ward, to hit 5RDW. And most importantly, have a custom macro type something suitable in allchat as you escape their 5man gank.
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Might not really be unconventional with AP yi out there but jungle yi with a revolver for many heals.
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I have a suspicion that grb might be ultra legit on morde. Can't wait to test this when I get home.
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On July 08 2011 04:36 Odds wrote:
I have a suspicion that grb might be ultra legit on morde. Can't wait to test this when I get home.
doesn't work.
T_T
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Glass Cannon Garen
21/9/0, MS quints, arp marks, dodge seals, mres/lvl
Flash/ignite prefered
Build:
Double/triple dorans
Mercury threads/ninja tabi
4 BT's
IE
You can get GA instead of 1 BT, but replace it if it gets used and get a BT instead.
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Why not bos and pd instead of the mercs and extra bt's?
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Because then it will not be unconventional enough jeez...
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On July 12 2011 09:06 Sponkz wrote:
Glass Cannon Garen
21/9/0, MS quints, arp marks, dodge seals, mres/lvl
Flash/ignite prefered
Build:
Double/triple dorans
Mercury threads/ninja tabi
4 BT's
IE
You can get GA instead of 1 BT, but replace it if it gets used and get a BT instead.
Mercs/ninja ain't glasscannon, swifties are.
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Bloodthirster what. That doesn't really help you at all after hextech :x
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I built BT because I just wanted my Q to hit hard, plus it gives your clone more attack damage, which is much more useful than giving your clone ability power in most cases.
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How do you gank as jungle morde without red/cutlass?
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On July 14 2011 00:51 JackDino wrote:How do you gank as jungle morde without red/cutlass?
I was pretty reliant on my lanes to engage and I pretty much just ran in and hit them and hoped for the best.
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On July 14 2011 01:49 Crazazyasian1337 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 00:51 JackDino wrote:How do you gank as jungle morde without red/cutlass? I was pretty reliant on my lanes to engage and I pretty much just ran in and hit them and hoped for the best.
Zzz usually it's hard for me to gank even if I have cc because half the time laners don't do anything even if you ping~~
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On July 14 2011 01:49 Crazazyasian1337 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2011 00:51 JackDino wrote:How do you gank as jungle morde without red/cutlass? I was pretty reliant on my lanes to engage and I pretty much just ran in and hit them and hoped for the best.
well, that game your ganks weren't very good and that penta came in a random teamfight where I DID ALL THE DAMAGE YOU DICK.
~~mad
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Okay now I'm back to thinking that fon rush might be mandatory because without it you sort of get exploded by anything. Morde isn't a ganker, he's a fucking pusher and my build should reflect that.
currently using 9 0 21, ms quints, opening regrowth, building fon, mercs, THEN hextech, grb, lichbane. Force a lane back, explode his fucking tower, rinse and God damn repeat.
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I just did a few games as jungle morde, and I like it except for the fact that morde has the worst scaling of all friggin time. One of the games I went 7/0/6 in the first 25 minutes and we fucking lost, it was really sad. Granted we had two people that I swear to god had never played LoL before, but still. You would think that a 15 minute FoN on morde and then a 20 minute rylais would be able to carry the game.....
If you drag it out to lategame, I end up trying to aim for FoN, sunfire, Abyssal, Rylais, Sorcs, and probably Aegis. The only thing is that when everyone gets farmed up, your damage isn't really relevant anymore, hence all the magic pen that I'm stacking on that build. Lategame morde suggestions?
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On July 15 2011 06:38 HyperionDreamer wrote:
I just did a few games as jungle morde, and I like it except for the fact that morde has the worst scaling of all friggin time. One of the games I went 7/0/6 in the first 25 minutes and we fucking lost, it was really sad. Granted we had two people that I swear to god had never played LoL before, but still. You would think that a 15 minute FoN on morde and then a 20 minute rylais would be able to carry the game.....
If you drag it out to lategame, I end up trying to aim for FoN, sunfire, Abyssal, Rylais, Sorcs, and probably Aegis. The only thing is that when everyone gets farmed up, your damage isn't really relevant anymore, hence all the magic pen that I'm stacking on that build. Lategame morde suggestions?
Build something like gunblade/triforce with some tank items, or lichbane deathcap gunblade+tank, just steal their carry and you'll do plenty of dmg. Can also try dropping the mpen for a voidstaff.
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On July 15 2011 06:38 HyperionDreamer wrote:
I just did a few games as jungle morde, and I like it except for the fact that morde has the worst scaling of all friggin time. One of the games I went 7/0/6 in the first 25 minutes and we fucking lost, it was really sad. Granted we had two people that I swear to god had never played LoL before, but still. You would think that a 15 minute FoN on morde and then a 20 minute rylais would be able to carry the game.....
If you drag it out to lategame, I end up trying to aim for FoN, sunfire, Abyssal, Rylais, Sorcs, and probably Aegis. The only thing is that when everyone gets farmed up, your damage isn't really relevant anymore, hence all the magic pen that I'm stacking on that build. Lategame morde suggestions?
Do not play Morde as tanky first and foremost. You can build tank items late game, but they should be your luxury items. You want to rush a hextech and then a gunblade and a sheen. After that you can get a lichbane and deathcap. After that just build tanky with items like FoN and Sunfire.
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On July 16 2011 11:04 Lafali wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 06:38 HyperionDreamer wrote:
I just did a few games as jungle morde, and I like it except for the fact that morde has the worst scaling of all friggin time. One of the games I went 7/0/6 in the first 25 minutes and we fucking lost, it was really sad. Granted we had two people that I swear to god had never played LoL before, but still. You would think that a 15 minute FoN on morde and then a 20 minute rylais would be able to carry the game.....
If you drag it out to lategame, I end up trying to aim for FoN, sunfire, Abyssal, Rylais, Sorcs, and probably Aegis. The only thing is that when everyone gets farmed up, your damage isn't really relevant anymore, hence all the magic pen that I'm stacking on that build. Lategame morde suggestions? Do not play Morde as tanky first and foremost. You can build tank items late game, but they should be your luxury items. You want to rush a hextech and then a gunblade and a sheen. After that you can get a lichbane and deathcap. After that just build tanky with items like FoN and Sunfire.
Triforce over lichbane imo. Better stats.
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On July 15 2011 06:38 HyperionDreamer wrote:
I just did a few games as jungle morde, and I like it except for the fact that morde has the worst scaling of all friggin time. One of the games I went 7/0/6 in the first 25 minutes and we fucking lost, it was really sad. Granted we had two people that I swear to god had never played LoL before, but still. You would think that a 15 minute FoN on morde and then a 20 minute rylais would be able to carry the game.....
If you drag it out to lategame, I end up trying to aim for FoN, sunfire, Abyssal, Rylais, Sorcs, and probably Aegis. The only thing is that when everyone gets farmed up, your damage isn't really relevant anymore, hence all the magic pen that I'm stacking on that build. Lategame morde suggestions?
Rylai's is so bad on Morde anyways, you get like 0 slow from it compared to shooting them with your gunblade and hitting them in the face with your triforce. Also his Q scaling is one of the best in the game if not the best, it's 1.75AD + 0.7AP against lonely targets.
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wtf, what a noob! who goes AP Tank Sona???? =0p
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On July 12 2011 20:17 JackDino wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2011 09:06 Sponkz wrote:
Glass Cannon Garen
21/9/0, MS quints, arp marks, dodge seals, mres/lvl
Flash/ignite prefered
Build:
Double/triple dorans
Mercury threads/ninja tabi
4 BT's
IE
You can get GA instead of 1 BT, but replace it if it gets used and get a BT instead. Mercs/ninja ain't glasscannon, swifties are.
Dodge seals? Need Crit% on reds, yellows, and blues
AND
21 offense
Open Crit gloves
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That Lux went Lich-Bane, she should be uninstalling the game.
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LB is a perfectly good item?
Maybe, anyways:
[3:44:22 PM] stuffed_turkey: lol..
[3:44:37 PM] stuffed_turkey: lich bane my standard lux build..
[3:44:44 PM] nightseternal: lol
[3:44:48 PM] nightseternal: it's the same guy that bitched about GP
[3:44:55 PM] stuffed_turkey: yea i noticed lol
[3:45:02 PM] stuffed_turkey: but yea my lux core is deathcap lich
[3:47:21 PM] nightseternal: do we need to go over again
[3:47:23 PM] nightseternal: how you're turkey
[3:47:29 PM] stuffed_turkey: huehuehue
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On July 19 2011 04:15 OriginalName wrote:That Lux went Lich-Bane, she should be uninstalling the game.
lich bane is really good on lux............
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On July 19 2011 04:34 Kaal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2011 04:15 OriginalName wrote:That Lux went Lich-Bane, she should be uninstalling the game. lich bane is really good on lux............
Lich bane is asking to die with Lux. Only time I ever pick it up on her is if I need pushing power.
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tank annie used to be awesome
till they nerfed her base damage and buffed her ratios...
now offtank annie is awesome =]
edit: Attack speed cho can work really well, deals a lot of damage, can jungle fast etc etc
melts like butter tho...madreds atmogs witsend is best but so expensive...
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
Utility Tryndamere
Flash/ignite 3-6-21 masteries
Get spin first and hide in the brush near golem that nobody ever checks, you will be counterjungling.
Learn all the timings for when to come out and disrupt their jungle at blue for each jungler, ward their red on first trip back
Max spin first so you can get around the map easily, the W for the awesome slow/ad debuff. Coordinate ganks with your jungler on bot lane often since 1v2 is hard vs ranged/support
get HoG/avarice blade to supplement your income while you mess with their jungle
glhf
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On July 20 2011 00:59 Brees wrote:
Utility Tryndamere
Flash/ignite 3-6-21 masteries
Get spin first and hide in the brush near golem that nobody ever checks, you will be counterjungling.
Learn all the timings for when to come out and disrupt their jungle at blue for each jungler, ward their red on first trip back
Max spin first so you can get around the map easily, the W for the awesome slow/ad debuff. Coordinate ganks with your jungler on bot lane often since 1v2 is hard vs ranged/support
get HoG/avarice blade to supplement your income while you mess with their jungle
glhf
I've actually seen some good LS do something like this, abusing the wardhop to get around :[
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Regarding mordekaiser from last page. There's the (for some godawful reason) conventional non-troll build that DOESN'T work which is known as tank mordekaiser. It's not like you need any form of cc to be a tank. Everyone's going to Target you on the merit that you've built yourself so tanky and do 0 dmg.
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I've started fairly recently and been running with sona. Almost all the guides I read are like 'support character that gets kills as well!' or 'be a support-but have fun and nuke things also!'
Well fuck that. I want to play support to support, not to go solomid and be able to gank a rammus. Now it seems to me if you don't give a shit about flying off and getting kills sona becomes an infinitely more powerful character. In games where my team doesn't feed early I'm now averaging something like 2/3-2/3-25-40, and doing it with a completely nonstandard style (compared to what I see people saying how to play her). I admit I'm only level 20 so this experience may not count, but here's what I'm doing
skills: 1 point in Q at 1, 1 point in R at 6, otherwise W>E>Q>R
R is great for the AOE stun and that's about it. the damage is fairly negligible even maxed, and with bought CDR the innate CDR is meh, you don't need it up every 40 seconds, 80 is just fine. I've found that almost every guide says Q till max then E, but E is so much more powerful from a tactical perspective if you get it maxed by level 13 at the beginning of the midgame. A team with a sona with 5Q 1E that catches 3 guys out of position will get a kill, if the sona has 1Q 5E they get 3 kills. Ditto for the reverse, a sona and a couple of chars that get caught out of position with maxed Q and no E all die, if other way around, you get away without a loss if the enemy don't get a complete stunkill normally.
Runes, masteries and summoners:
Gl: CDR
Se:MP5
Marks: CDR
Qu: MP5
Sona's abilities are what make her powerful and being able to burn them early to build powerchords is what will give you lane control. CDR runes combined with the item build give you around 33% CDR reduction fairly early, maxing out at 38%, which saves item wastage.
Flash and clarity for normal games, flash and clairvoyance if not laning with a mana user
masteries are currently 0/0/20, standard utility build with imp clarity. Will probably be 0/9/21 at 30
Core Build:
faerie charm + 2HP +2MP >philo stone > tear of the goddess > boots of lucidity + wards as required.
Extended core:
>will of the ancients or Starks fervour (if AD heavy) > aegis of the legion > shurelia's reverie > archangel's staff > Will or Starks, whichever wasn't built earlier. If your team is VERY heavy with AP or AD, you can skip this for a deathcap, but the game rarely goes this late.
Final build:
Shurelia's Reverie + Archangel staff + Ionian boots of lucidity +Will of the ancients + aegis of the legion + starks fervour (or deathcap) (this last item should be saved for and built in one hit as you want a free slot for wards)
almost all items in this build are designed to give direct buffs to your team while moderately improving your survivability and sustainability. after your core is complete you shouldn't have to B other than to buy. By late game you end up with pretty decent AP (around 200). I choose the boots of lucidity over boots of celerity since I'm getting E levelled up early which most builds don't, giving me the extra mobility.
All in all this results in a sona who can put annoying pressure on in the early game with Q+ powerchord and transition into healing your dual lane char once ability sets and basic items come out, preventing ganks and denying CS. I rarely get a kill either way in my lane, though when I do it's usually a trade. However, I and my partner usually massively dominate in the CS and get the turret kill first.
In mid game I become a psychological nightmare for the enemy teams, the amount of times I've kited someone out of position so my team can demolish them and then hasted the team in chasing down one or two more characters that were coming in to support. I pull people out of circumstances where we would have lost a couple of champs for nothing, often to the extent where the tables are turned and we pick up a kill because someone overextended in chasing us down. While you can't do anything to an enemy character solo, nor even stop a creep wave eating a tower, with another champion you can gank, countergank, juke and jive with impunity.
late game a simple w-e-w-chord combo makes initiations rarely work out for the enemy and the amount of aura support you offer is ridiculous, upwards of 30 ad, 50 ap, 20% lifesteal, 25% spellvamp, 20% attack speed, 25 movement speed, 40 or so armor and MR, plus a temporary 40% speed buff from shurelia's. Your team is essentially immune to poke, never runs out of mana (thanks to improved clarity), is hard to initiate on because they dance incredibly fast and can initiate with a 60% speed boost from a stacked shurelia+e active. I regularly win 4 v 5s coming out 2-3 chars ahead simply because of the confusion I cause in enemy teams.
I admit that my experience so far is about 80% normal games against level 15-20 players, but I have played in several premades of predominantly 30 characters and done as well, if not better than in normal pugs. Team coordination only makes this build stronger.
Now, part of the reason I'm posting this is I'd like any good players (30s with decent ladder experience) to point out why this sort of build isn't popular. It seems incredibly strong to me at this level, but I don't see it coming out much in progames nor in guides. Is something particularly weak about it against competent players? only thing I can see is that I'm super squishy on paper, but in practice I've never had a problem. I'm usually lowest on deaths, even when the enemy is trying to initiate onto me primarily.
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The above build looks like a somewhat normal support build to me lol.
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all in the subtleties afaict. E before Q, not leveling ulti, lots of MP5 runes as opposed to MR or armor. supports don't usually buy aura items as far as I know, particularly starks because it doesn't synergise with sona herself. Not crazy massive, but just refined in a different way that seems to have a serious impact
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can i get tiamat builds for the heck of it?
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On July 03 2011 07:49 Asdkmoga wrote:
i've always thought Cass was strong, just gotta build health very early so you can do the damage, and when you do, damn is it a shit ton of fucking damage with dem twin fangs
Edit: also, if anyne knows about Cait Jungle can you talk about it some? i've seen it done in a agame when we didnt have one, and she apparently cleared jungle and ganked bot enough time to clearly win that lane and i dont know how she did it
I have done Cait jungle before actually, u might have been in my game >.> You have to abuse her passive, headshot, for extra dps in the jungle. She doesn't really carry as hard without farm so you end up being more of a support for your team with extra dps and map control with your traps. You can set traps in the bushs near their buffs so you can see when the other jungler is there, or set traps along common travel routes for any champs so someone will probably hit it.
Summoner Spells: smite and flash/ghost/teleport
Masteries: 21/0/9, make sure u get all the atk damage related masteries in offense and improved smite. Utility is for the exp and buff duration masteries.
Runes: Atk speed red, armor yellow, attackspeed blue, 2 armor pen quints, 1 atkspeed quint. I think you could do with more armor pen but I'm not sure exactly. this seems to work for me.
Items:start cloth armor+5pots
core: wriggles+beserker greaves
then get whatever u want, usually normal AD carry items like Infinity Edge, Phantom Dancer, Last Whisper but u might want to skip Bloodthirster because you already have Wriggles (replace wriggles later if you don't know what else to build) Maybe get Bloodrazor for fast baron... depends on the game.
Route: blue-wolves-wraiths-double golems, b, red, gank. I havent done it in a while so u might be able to do red and then doubles without going b, but its safer to heal if u need to. If you start at blue you can kite the wolves a little toward the bush by blue to get your passive to proc sooner when you do blue.
-edit- actually if you want to start at blue you might have to take health quints and full armor pen reds instead because blue will mess u up without a good leash.
Better Route: double golems-wraiths-wolves gank and then improvise from there, usually do that round again until you get madreds or wriggles, then u can get the buffs faster.
Make sure you shoot when your sitting in the bush for your passive and spam your skills for more dps. You can kinda kite the wolves into the bush and kill them one by one but it might be faster just sit there and shoot em. It's hard to use the bush by the wraith camp but it can be done.
Skill order is Q-E-Q-W or Q-E-W if you do the alternate route ( you need all 3 skills to gank at all) After that it's R>Q>W>E
Double golems and the buff camps are the best since there is an easy to use bush for proccing your passive more.
Ganks: Ganks are frikin impossible, usually u can only gank vs super overextended lanes, and mid is the hardest to gank. Laying traps beforehand is usually a good idea just in case the enemies try to flee into the river or something. Your lane has to be aggressive and fight so both sides are a bit low, and then you have to provide surprise dps to win the fight (that can be done with any jungler though).
When you reveal yourself you can try to lead with Q for that extra burst so they aren't at a safe HP anymore, or try for a W but it's not easy to land. You can also just autoatk them if you have red buff or if they are already low. The nice thing is that you don't have as much of a gap to close as melee junglers so you can just go pew pew without having to get too far out of position if it's not safe, and you can just do free damage to pressure the lane, maybe force a b.
You can also start by setting a trap along a possible route that they will walk or flash to when they retreat to their tower and then your teammate can engage and force them into it. It's a good tactic especially in the sidelane bushes. If you can get positioned between the enemy and their tower you can cut off their escape with your traps and net without shooting yourself off too far to the side but its a bit risky to use your net for the slow. You really need your teammates to follow up because otherwise the enemies can just turn on you and kill you.
Her ult is really good for ganks because it forces the enemy to retreat even earlier than normal, almost always forcing a flash, and even then u can sometimes still target them and finish them off. You can try ward-teleport ganks too if that's what it takes.
Cait can control the map pretty well with her traps so dont forget to put one or two in key spots before you gank so you have a retreat route too in case you fail. Make sure you cover lanes whenever there's an opportunity because Cait is actually good in lane and you can get more exp and farm that way.
Another tip is that you can actually lure dragon out far enough so that Cait can shoot it from the little bush in the river but you'll probably have to tank it if you want to do that cuz no one else knows that and so they won't pull it far enough.
Jungle Caitlyn is pretty fun because you get to feel like a sniper who sneakily hunts people down. ^^;
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Double Jungle Taric Twitch
Taric tanks the creeps and Twitch kills them. Start blue buff (giving it to Taric), then clear the jungle, ganking whenever possible. Ganks are supa ez - at level 1, Taric stuns them, then Twitch slows them; once Twitch has invisibility, he sneaks up and slows them then Taric stuns.
The downsides to this are:
1) Taric has no gold (but he's used to it)
2) Taric has no levels
3) Twitch has no levels and only jungle gold
4) Someone has to 1v2
The upsides to this are:
1) Absurdly strong ganks
2) Lanes are in constant fear of Twitch
3) Enemy jungle is in constant fear of Twitch
4) Once Twitch gets Wriggles, Taric can leave him be for the most part and roam like normal
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I wouldn't say its unique so much its how I choose to play kog.
I play him FULL AP.
Multiple Archangels, Rabadon's, Sorc Boots, Voidstaff, Chalice of harmony if you really need it.
Clarity/Flash.
Pretty in a teamfight, you flash out, and snipe with your ulti. With blue/clarity/blue elixer, and chalice, you can spam your ulti for a good 2 minute straight, doing massive amounts of damage, without ever being targeted. The biggest problem I have with AD Kogmaw is the lack of survivability, and is always a high priority target in teamfights, that means you'll be dead in 5-10 seconds of a teamfight, and since he doesn't really have any great escape mechanics you can't really do anything about it. However AP kog offers prolonged amounts of damage, with a much lower chance of death.
Another odd build I do is AP/AS teemo, For some reason the most common teemo I see is just AD/AS teemo, when in reality AP/AS teemo has the highest damage output.
Just get Flash/Ghost, or Flash/Exhaust.
Sorc Boots/Berserker greaves. Nashors Tooth, Malady (or Wit's end, depends on enemy comp). Rabadons, Lich Bane, Void Staff + Zhonya's hourglass (or abyssal scepter).
I definitely suggest this build for everyone.
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I wouldn't say its unique so much its how I choose to play kog.
I play him FULL AP.
Multiple Archangels, Rabadon's, Sorc Boots, Voidstaff, Chalice of harmony if you really need it.
Clarity/Flash.
Pretty much in a teamfight, you flash out, and snipe with your ulti. With blue/clarity/blue elixer, and chalice, you can spam your ulti for a good 2 minute straight, doing massive amounts of damage, without ever being targeted. The biggest problem I have with AD Kogmaw is the lack of survivability, and is always a high priority target in teamfights, that means you'll be dead in 5-10 seconds of a teamfight, and since he doesn't really have any great escape mechanics you can't really do anything about it. However AP kog offers prolonged amounts of damage, with a much lower chance of death.
Another odd build I do is AP/AS teemo, For some reason the most common teemo I see is just AD/AS teemo, when in reality AP/AS teemo has the highest damage output.
Just get Flash/Ghost, or Flash/Exhaust.
Sorc Boots/Berserker greaves. Nashors Tooth, Malady (or Wit's end, depends on enemy comp). Rabadons, Lich Bane, Void Staff + Zhonya's hourglass (or abyssal scepter).
I definitely suggest this build for everyone.
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A friend of mine made a jungle Janna guide. He won a fair amount of games with it (he's silver ELO atm), so I'd say it's not rubbish.
http://solomid.net/guides.php?g=3282
It's basically AD Janna with Wriggle's and 21/0/9 masteries. Her ganks are stupidly strong. Knockup and a slow, not even mentioning the value of her ulti.
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I have never tried it but i saw it in ranked game and she rocked us so hard
Kinda Hybrid Nidalee
Items: Sunfire, Raylis, Trinity
Only fight as Non-Human
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EPT
