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[Discussion] Patch Notes - Page 117

Forum Index > LoL General
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Attakijing
Profile Joined June 2011
United States693 Posts
July 26 2011 20:58 GMT
#2321
About wukong...

if your clone can absorb cc and ults it seems like wukong might work well as a tank. you can dash in, clone, and then ult to knock everyone up. that kind of initiation sounds even better than amumu ult to me esp considering its a huge knockup not a stun. Does this make sense or am i misunderstanding something?
Shikyo
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Finland33997 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-26 21:01:57
July 26 2011 21:01 GMT
#2322
Ok actually new studies show that if you open amp tome on trynd and then I personally would turn it into trinity force later on, you get some sick laning sustain as you don't even need fury and Q has 1.5 AP ratio.

Might also try guinsoo rageblade again. Revolver might work as well.

Hmmm this is pretty interesting. You don't even need to build crit on him as he's not as critbased anymore, it's jsut a bonus. Maybe trynd isn't trash

On July 27 2011 05:58 Attakijing wrote:
About wukong...

if your clone can absorb cc and ults it seems like wukong might work well as a tank. you can dash in, clone, and then ult to knock everyone up. that kind of initiation sounds even better than amumu ult to me esp considering its a huge knockup not a stun. Does this make sense or am i misunderstanding something?

Can't you just flash-ult?
League of Legends EU West, Platinum III | Yousei Teikoku is the best thing that has ever happened to music.
Attakijing
Profile Joined June 2011
United States693 Posts
July 26 2011 21:08 GMT
#2323
On July 27 2011 06:01 Shikyo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 27 2011 05:58 Attakijing wrote:
About wukong...

if your clone can absorb cc and ults it seems like wukong might work well as a tank. you can dash in, clone, and then ult to knock everyone up. that kind of initiation sounds even better than amumu ult to me esp considering its a huge knockup not a stun. Does this make sense or am i misunderstanding something?

Can't you just flash-ult?

I guess but riot seems to give low CD ults to the tanky dps that they intend to be more dps and less tanky. But i'm just saying it would be a pretty reliable initiation.

What i really mean i think is the huge aoe CC and aoe damage is more of a tanky thing to do right now than a melee dps thing. Jump in, create a huge visual threat and absorb cc... But again im not high elo and could be missing something.
Shikyo
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Finland33997 Posts
July 26 2011 21:25 GMT
#2324
Ok I tried a gunblade -> rageblade build and went 11-0, though that was on my lvl 15 US account. Still, the build feels decent and has sick laning power if you open with amp tome. Maybe can even rush spirit visage for more trollage. I guess after that is PD or maybe you already need some more tankyness(atmogs)
League of Legends EU West, Platinum III | Yousei Teikoku is the best thing that has ever happened to music.
Ryuu314
Profile Joined October 2009
United States12679 Posts
July 26 2011 21:31 GMT
#2325
On July 27 2011 06:25 Shikyo wrote:
Ok I tried a gunblade -> rageblade build and went 11-0, though that was on my lvl 15 US account. Still, the build feels decent and has sick laning power if you open with amp tome. Maybe can even rush spirit visage for more trollage. I guess after that is PD or maybe you already need some more tankyness(atmogs)

I did jungle tryn. Went wriggles -> gunblade -> IE

did hilariously well especially since your E scales off 100% of AD and AP, add the 20% spellvamp and you're looking at hilarious heals when you E through their whole team lol
Shikyo
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Finland33997 Posts
July 26 2011 22:06 GMT
#2326
Secong game on the lvl 15 account and 17-3 hmm... I think I'm onto something here
League of Legends EU West, Platinum III | Yousei Teikoku is the best thing that has ever happened to music.
ArC_man
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States2798 Posts
July 26 2011 22:44 GMT
#2327
On July 27 2011 07:06 Shikyo wrote:
Secong game on the lvl 15 account and 17-3 hmm... I think I'm onto something here

You mean you realized you were playing on a level 15 account?
red_b
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1267 Posts
July 26 2011 23:26 GMT
#2328
anyone played corki?

he feels significantly weaker. IMO he went from 2nd best ranged AD carry to worst.

reasoning: If I want to play a suboptimal ranged ad carry Ill take MF since her waterloo skin is way cuter than corki.
Those small maps were like a boxing match in a phone booth.
Ryuu314
Profile Joined October 2009
United States12679 Posts
July 26 2011 23:55 GMT
#2329
On July 27 2011 08:26 red_b wrote:
anyone played corki?

he feels significantly weaker. IMO he went from 2nd best ranged AD carry to worst.

reasoning: If I want to play a suboptimal ranged ad carry Ill take MF since her waterloo skin is way cuter than corki.

Iunno if he's the worse AD carry now. His passive is still amazing and the fact that he deals tons of magic damage is still very nice.

That 60%-50% nerf on his ulti hurts a lot tho :\
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
July 27 2011 00:02 GMT
#2330
The blind change is big in laning IMO. You don't create situations vs other AD carries where they don't want to trade autos with you because 1/3 of their autos will miss anymore.
Moderator
yellowguan
Profile Joined December 2010
43 Posts
July 27 2011 00:36 GMT
#2331
Having playing tryn for like forever and trying out new tryn, my thoughts:

-Jungle tryn is nerfed.

I can't believe how much critdamage had a huge impact on jungling, I was always able to conduct lvl 2 ganks or clear jungle, but i'm back to the old school dbl golems to blue golems and having to b and get boots rather than blue golems to clear everything else

The gank windows have been closed.

-New Tryn doesn't need to commit to crit

This is the most important change to tryndamere.
His fury gives him and enables him to not be able to always be on the edge, you build him tanky deeps.

He is basically old Renekton, possibly consistent in high elo, which I am perfectly fine with.

Personal tidbits: aesthetics are awesome, except for the sound effect remakes
Sentenal
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States12398 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-27 05:44:48
July 27 2011 05:43 GMT
#2332
Trynd is either vastly different, or nerfed. I used to main this guy, and playing him now, its like...
Less Damage
Less Heal
Less Crits
More Cooldowns
Better spinning slash

With how I used to run Trynd, I would start off the game at level 1, with 40% crit after Runes/Masteries/Brawlers Glove/Passive. Now? 30%. And with Fury, crit is capped at 35%, so times where Trynd's crit would get close to 100% never happen now, ever. The only thing better about Bloodlust now is that you can use it without having to do anything previously. But unless you are AP Trynd, you are healing less than what you used to. And since you have less crit, you are building fury slower than you got bloodlust stacks.

Basically, they completely took Old Trynd out of the game, and this is an entirely new champ who only seems similar. I guess maybe if I want to keep playing this new guy, I'll try some tanky DPS builds, but I wish Riot would give me my Barbarian King back. Fuck, with Pantheon's ult lol'd now, the my only main champ that I actually like now is Cho.
"Apparently, Sentenal is a paragon of friendship and tolerance. " - Ech0ne
Therealdevil
Profile Joined May 2010
Netherlands1021 Posts
July 27 2011 07:54 GMT
#2333
So yesterday I was playing on the EU server, I play Cassi, put the AOE down in a bush, go into it, get ganked.

Delay on the patches is ; ;
locodoco
Profile Joined July 2010
Korea (South)1615 Posts
July 27 2011 07:56 GMT
#2334
i might have played against idiots since it was normal
but corki seems fine to me,just weaker but no where near unplayable~
i wish riot would give me better ping
Klive5ive
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United Kingdom6056 Posts
July 27 2011 08:43 GMT
#2335
On July 27 2011 16:56 locodoco wrote:
i might have played against idiots since it was normal
but corki seems fine to me,just weaker but no where near unplayable~

Yeah I just found the same. Obviously he is weaker but he still seems very powerful.
Don't hate the player - Hate the game
Craton
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States17254 Posts
July 27 2011 09:04 GMT
#2336
On July 26 2011 23:26 Juicyfruit wrote:
You'd have to be pretty bad at balancing

I think you're on to something
twitch.tv/cratonz
Black Paper Moon
Profile Joined December 2010
Chile20 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-27 23:58:12
July 27 2011 23:41 GMT
#2337
I've been looking at Kayle build options. Common wisdom so far is that you want to build attack speed to hell and back to take advantage of the damage on her Righteous Fury. I wasn't convinced by some of the item builds I've seen on her, though, so I ran some numbers on what goes well on her after the remake.

1) To start with: AP blows. Kayle used to be a hybrid that favoured AP because she could apply her AP to her attack damage (via Righteous Fury's AP coefficient), because AP also gave her bonus attack damage via her passive, and because AP strengthened both her heal and her nuke. The following things have now changed:
+ Show Spoiler +

- RF's AP coefficient has been decreased from 0.3 to 0.2;
- Kayle's passive no longer gives her bonus AD (in fact, it sucks now);
- Divine Blessing's AP coefficient has been decreased from 0.5 to 0.35;
- Reckoning's AP coefficient has been increased from 0.8 to 1.0.

Old Kayle got the following for every 100 AP:
- 45 bonus damage for her autoattack (30 from RF, 15 from her passive);
- 80 damage for her nuke;
- 50 health for her heal.

New Kayle gets the following for every 100 AP:
- 20 bonus damage for her autoattack (20 from RF);
- 100 damage for her nuke;
- 35 health for her heal.

Considering that most of Kayle's damage is autoattack damage, AP isn't even half as good now as it used to be. If you look at damage output numbers, hybrid items like Gunblade are no longer good on her (I'll prove it with math in section 3).


2) Kayle likes 40% CDR. To picture why, imagine you're playing Ashe and your ranged autoattack becomes a melee one for 1-2 out of every 16 seconds. Yeah. The biggest problem isn't that you're not dealing damage for those 1-2 seconds, it's that it can completely fuck up your positioning.
Looking at the CDR items available you only have a few items that make sense on a carry that has little use for AP: Stinger with 10% (builds into Nashor's Tooth for 25%), Brutalizer for 10% (builds into Youmuu's for 15%) and Ionian Boots with 15%. You can also get 5.85% CDR from glyphs, 3% from offensive masteries, and 6% from utility masteries. That's what you have to work with.
The best alternatives I've come up with are: Ionian Boots + Nashor's Tooth (no Runes or Masteries), Brutalizer + Nashor's Tooth (Offensive Masteries + 3 CDR glyphs), and Nashor's Tooth (Offensive and Utility Masteries + full CDR glyphs). I favour the last one because it's more efficient in item slots, because glyphs aren't that hot for you, because it frees you to purchase Zerk Greaves, and because the Utility tree works okay on you. My second choice would be MR or Mana/5 glyphs, full Offensive tree (Havoc is great) and Ionian Boots.

3) Full Attack Speed & Magic Damage Kayle is not the One True Build.

Attack Speed & Magic Damage Kayle (combo pack of Nashor's Tooth, Wit's End, Malady, Bloodrazor, all that jazz) has the problem that she doesn't scale very well. She has no synergy with Crit%, and you're going to be more affected by Armor and MRes stacking: Kayle's new passive blows, and she can't afford to purchase both a Last Whisper AND a Void Staff.

My argument is that full AS & MD Kayle is a situational build for when Armor / MRes stacking is not going to be a problem (game doesn't last long enough), and for when some side-effects of the damage items you're buying become attractive (MRes from Wit's End if you're getting bursted down, % health damage from Bloodrazor against Warmog's stacking). You can build a competitive "standard carry" Kayle that scales better in late game (WARNING: MATH).
+ Show Spoiler +

Let's assume you agree with me and build Zerk Greaves and Nashor's Tooth on Kayle. Total cost is 3,805 gold, which I'll assume you get by level 8. What do you buy after that, an Infinity Edge (3,830 g), a Wit's End + Malady combo (3,975 g), or a Gunblade (3,625 g)?

First, let's see what your damage output looks like (assuming 100% uptime for Righteous Fury) for when you start buying each item. If IE, you want a Pickaxe. If Wit's End + Malady, you want a Recurve Bow. If Gunblade, you want a Pickaxe too.
Base autoattack damage: 74
Righteous Fury damage: 50 (+55 AP * 0.2) = 61
Attack speed: 1.381 (6.905 attacks per 5 seconds)
Critical chance: 0% (0 crits per 5 seconds)

DPS (against a 0 Armor, 0 MRes target): (74 + 61)*6.905 / 5 = 186.435

With Recurve Bow: Attack speed increases to 1.637 (8.185 attacks per 5 seconds). DPS increases to 220.995
With Pickaxe: Autoattack damage increases by 25. DPS increases to 220.96.

That means, after you have your Nashor's Tooth and Zerk Greaves, you have enough Attack Speed that the Pickaxe and the Recurve Bow are almost equivalent.

Now, let's look at the final picture: you need close to 4,000 g to complete these, so we'll assume you only get that by level 15. By level 15, Kayle will have:
Base autoattack damage: 91 (+80 if IE, + 60 if Gunblade)
Magic damage per hit: (62 if WE&M)
Righteous Fury Damage: 60 (+11 if IE, +16 if WE&M, +26 if Gunblade)
Attack speed: (1.484 if IE or Gunblade, 2.058 if WE&M)
Attacks per 5 secs: (7.42 if IE or Gunblade, 10.29 if WE&M)
Critical chance: (25% if IE, or 1.855 crits per 5 secs)

DPS is calculated as:
(Base autoattack damage + bonus AD + magic damage + Righteous Fury + AP coefficient of RF) * Attacks per 5 seconds / 5 + (Crits per 5 secs)*(Base autoattack damage + bonus AD)*(250% - 100%) / 5

IE DPS: [ (91+80+60+11) * 7.42 / 5] + [1.855 * (91+80) * 1.5 / 5 ] = 454.2895
WE&M DPS: [ (91+62+60+16) * 10.29 / 5] = 471.282
Gunblade DPS: [ (91+60+60+26) * 7.42 / 5] = 351.708

That is to say, DPS of Infinity Edge is almost on par with WE&M, while Gunblade is far (far) behind. Each of these items has a different set of advantages:
- Infinity Edge has the best end-game scaling (add Last Whisper, Phantom Dancer, whatever);
- WE&M provides MRes and suffers less from Thornmail;
- Gunblade adds more to your heal and your nuke, provides a redundant nuke with a slow, and adds lifesteal. I think it isn't close to measuring up.
- Bloodrazor deals % health damage, which is nice against high-HP teams. I didn't do the math for it here because its performance depends so much on who you're fighting.

Pick whichever you need!
Let justice be done, though the heavens may fall.
SHr3DD3r
Profile Joined March 2009
Pakistan2137 Posts
July 27 2011 23:45 GMT
#2338
On July 27 2011 16:54 mercurial wrote:
So yesterday I was playing on the EU server, I play Cassi, put the AOE down in a bush, go into it, get ganked.

Delay on the patches is ; ;

If you had used your Q - and if it had it some1 you would have gotten a speed boost.....

T.T Real n00b brah
Hit them hard! Hit them low! - Forever a Bisu Fan!~!
NightWalks
Profile Joined May 2011
Latvia252 Posts
July 28 2011 08:26 GMT
#2339
@Black Paper Moon Great example on how champion crunching should be done
You should post this in Kayle thred or ask Neo permission to make your own if none exists
so far ( or is outdated )
LoL making ppl rage since 2010
JackDino
Profile Joined July 2010
Gabon6219 Posts
July 28 2011 10:27 GMT
#2340
On July 27 2011 07:06 Shikyo wrote:
Secong game on the lvl 15 account and 17-3 hmm... I think I'm onto something here

You could build garen full AP on that account and still rape everyone.
This isnt Broodwar so I dont owe anyone respect for beating me. -arb
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