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On July 03 2011 02:30 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2011 02:27 Hynda wrote:On July 03 2011 02:24 Two_DoWn wrote:On July 03 2011 02:10 Hynda wrote:On July 03 2011 00:57 Two_DoWn wrote:On July 03 2011 00:48 Shikyo wrote:On July 03 2011 00:46 Two_DoWn wrote:Yes, nerf the only thing in the entire game that lets you play aggressive. What? Flash actually is the anti-aggressive, there'd be a million times more deaths in the game if no one had flash. This argument is complete and utter bullshit. I dont know who started it, but that person is a moron. Right now, a good player can only play aggressively in lane if they have flash up. Otherwise they WILL play defensive simply because of the risk of a jungle gank killing them. Without flash up or a permanent cv on the enemy jungle it is IMPOSSIBLE to go past the middle of the river on a character without a flash like skill. The risk is just to great to be worth it when you can just keep the minion wave in the middle and farm it there. People start fighting in lane and then someone flashes back and think "OH HEY FLASH IS STUPID IT MAKES THE GAME SO BORING AND DEFENSIVE" without realizing that WITHOUT FLASH THAT FIGHT WOULD NOT HAVE EVEN FUCKING HAPPENED. In low level play there would be more deaths because people there are fucking stupid as shit and rely on flash to survive when they are out of position. But the instant you get past ~1800 and into tournament play removing flash would just force every single solo lane to play super defensively because. Then you just have to force them out. You seem to make the argument that playing super passivly wins you the game. Without flash people will find ways around it, proper warding, proper positioning it will actually require you to keep track of their jungler. If you know he is top then your bot can go all out aggresive if you know he is bot your mid and top can play aggresivly while your opponent play passive as hell untill their jungler comes, which you can spot from a mile away even if you don't have wards. Look at high level streams, look at what happens when someone is about to gank from the jungle even now it shows so clearly in the way the lane changes, people will have to learn to spot that. It requires a new style of play and imo a more skillful one, now you can't just let a jungler do whatever the fuck he wants, you actually have to stop him. Imo it brings more skill if flash was made into blink dagger, ie only able to be used offensivly since some heroes pretty much requires it. As for low level games, if you know your shit you will reach higher ELO faster how is that a bad thing? Now I can't remember which team it was but CLG when they were at the hight of their fame, undisputed numba 1 got completely and utterly crushed by a EU team (god I wish I can remember which one it was) that played with a super aggresive, Ashe, Sona and Nunu comp. CLG tried to start a "Farm-fest" and they completly failed and got royaly stomped. It opens up for plenty of different ways of playing, some guys will end up farmfests ofc, but so be it. I prefer the game to evolve beyond what it is now. I never make the point that playing super passive wins you the game. I make the point that without flash, you literally cannot do anything but play super passive. With the recent annie and malz nerfs, no one can instagib at 6. Without flash, people will just sit back, farm, and not even bother trying to harass because without flash there is no way to follow up aggression. With flash up you can play forward in lane and harass because if the jungler does come you can get out, or flash forward if you do enough damage. Without flash you are FORCED to stay in the middle back of your lane and farm. Why harass if the only way you can get a kill is walking forward, hoping the other person doesnt notice? Or resorting to ghosting at them? Or why bother going forward and harassing at all if it opens you up to a gank you cant get away from? Well the fact that there has been game were super aggresive people have completly wrecked the top team in the world I must disagree with you. I personally think it will help the game evolve, atm I feel it has gone pretty stale as it is, perhaps reworking flash will make it staler but I don't think it will. And how are you forced to stay backand farm if you know were the jungler is? FFS NOWHERE DO I SAY THAT AGGRESSIVE PLAY CANT WIN. IT CAN. I merely make the point that without flash there is no reason to play aggressively unless you have a gap closer because the other person can always just walk away. And there is nothing you can do about it.
Everyone plays melee champions without a slow, a stun, or a movement skill.
Wait, what?
If they walk away then you can farm their lane and push their tower freely while they get 0 farm... they wouldn't just walk away.
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On July 03 2011 02:30 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2011 02:27 Hynda wrote:On July 03 2011 02:24 Two_DoWn wrote:On July 03 2011 02:10 Hynda wrote:On July 03 2011 00:57 Two_DoWn wrote:On July 03 2011 00:48 Shikyo wrote:On July 03 2011 00:46 Two_DoWn wrote:Yes, nerf the only thing in the entire game that lets you play aggressive. What? Flash actually is the anti-aggressive, there'd be a million times more deaths in the game if no one had flash. This argument is complete and utter bullshit. I dont know who started it, but that person is a moron. Right now, a good player can only play aggressively in lane if they have flash up. Otherwise they WILL play defensive simply because of the risk of a jungle gank killing them. Without flash up or a permanent cv on the enemy jungle it is IMPOSSIBLE to go past the middle of the river on a character without a flash like skill. The risk is just to great to be worth it when you can just keep the minion wave in the middle and farm it there. People start fighting in lane and then someone flashes back and think "OH HEY FLASH IS STUPID IT MAKES THE GAME SO BORING AND DEFENSIVE" without realizing that WITHOUT FLASH THAT FIGHT WOULD NOT HAVE EVEN FUCKING HAPPENED. In low level play there would be more deaths because people there are fucking stupid as shit and rely on flash to survive when they are out of position. But the instant you get past ~1800 and into tournament play removing flash would just force every single solo lane to play super defensively because. Then you just have to force them out. You seem to make the argument that playing super passivly wins you the game. Without flash people will find ways around it, proper warding, proper positioning it will actually require you to keep track of their jungler. If you know he is top then your bot can go all out aggresive if you know he is bot your mid and top can play aggresivly while your opponent play passive as hell untill their jungler comes, which you can spot from a mile away even if you don't have wards. Look at high level streams, look at what happens when someone is about to gank from the jungle even now it shows so clearly in the way the lane changes, people will have to learn to spot that. It requires a new style of play and imo a more skillful one, now you can't just let a jungler do whatever the fuck he wants, you actually have to stop him. Imo it brings more skill if flash was made into blink dagger, ie only able to be used offensivly since some heroes pretty much requires it. As for low level games, if you know your shit you will reach higher ELO faster how is that a bad thing? Now I can't remember which team it was but CLG when they were at the hight of their fame, undisputed numba 1 got completely and utterly crushed by a EU team (god I wish I can remember which one it was) that played with a super aggresive, Ashe, Sona and Nunu comp. CLG tried to start a "Farm-fest" and they completly failed and got royaly stomped. It opens up for plenty of different ways of playing, some guys will end up farmfests ofc, but so be it. I prefer the game to evolve beyond what it is now. I never make the point that playing super passive wins you the game. I make the point that without flash, you literally cannot do anything but play super passive. With the recent annie and malz nerfs, no one can instagib at 6. Without flash, people will just sit back, farm, and not even bother trying to harass because without flash there is no way to follow up aggression. With flash up you can play forward in lane and harass because if the jungler does come you can get out, or flash forward if you do enough damage. Without flash you are FORCED to stay in the middle back of your lane and farm. Why harass if the only way you can get a kill is walking forward, hoping the other person doesnt notice? Or resorting to ghosting at them? Or why bother going forward and harassing at all if it opens you up to a gank you cant get away from? Well the fact that there has been game were super aggresive people have completly wrecked the top team in the world I must disagree with you. I personally think it will help the game evolve, atm I feel it has gone pretty stale as it is, perhaps reworking flash will make it staler but I don't think it will. And how are you forced to stay backand farm if you know were the jungler is? FFS NOWHERE DO I SAY THAT AGGRESSIVE PLAY CANT WIN. IT CAN. I merely make the point that without flash there is no reason to play aggressively unless you have a gap closer because the other person can always just walk away. And there is nothing you can do about it.
Wouldn't that just mean that guy is now zoned? Or do you mean it in some other way?
I'm not saying that things can't end up as you say with a 50 minute farm fest and then one big team battle and whoever wins that wins. That is a possibility, but flash doesn't exist in other mobas and they don't look like it at all. You can argue that they are vastly different, but they really arn't. Innovative people found ways around it, tactics that punished passive play something fierce. And no, I don't plan to switch to DotA 2 just to get that out of the way.
It is as you say, as it is people have no idea how to play aggresive without flash. As soon as flash is down they shut down their hero and just farm till it's back up again. But I'm 100% sure that people will simply learn to adapt like they have done in so many other games.
When 1 skill dictates so much as it completly changes gameplay for every single hero on the field there is something wrong with it, it has to be changed. (In my opinion, I respect yours and do not present anything as fact).
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But even then, why remove the thing that even you agree allows people to play aggressively in the name of making the game less aggressive for now but hopefully possibly more aggressive in the future?
Why not buff Ghost so that stuns and slows dont work while you have it up? Bam. Better escape spell than flash right there. Flash becomes the spell you take when you want to be aggressive, ghost when you want to be defensive.
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On July 03 2011 02:38 Two_DoWn wrote:
But even then, why remove the thing that even you agree allows people to play aggressively in the name of making the game less aggressive for now but hopefully possibly more aggressive in the future?
That would be my last paragraph of my last post. Aswell as, it in my experience with these kinds of games helps it out, it gives a more diverse line up of tactics used to stop it. To me one of the most exciting games that you can watch are race against the clock games. One team wanting to farm and the other knowing the need to end it before they reach a certain time.
As for the ghost change, it would still be pretty much a get out of jail for free card then. People would just pick ghost and play just like they are now, but it could be a solution however I doubt it.
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On July 03 2011 02:38 Two_DoWn wrote:
But even then, why remove the thing that even you agree allows people to play aggressively in the name of making the game less aggressive for now but hopefully possibly more aggressive in the future?
Why not buff Ghost so that stuns and slows dont work while you have it up? Bam. Better escape spell than flash right there. Flash becomes the spell you take when you want to be aggressive, ghost when you want to be defensive.
Because then ghost would be overpowered as hell on tanky dps, and not for escaping.
My problem with flash is that its overpowered as a summoner spell, if they want to keep it put it as base and have 2 more summoner skills, it's dumb having to have 10 flashes in every game just because its that good.
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Flash is just such an incredible offensive and defensive skill.
For some champions like Malz or Annie it even creates impossible to deal with situations. If an Annie or Malz has both the ulti and the flash up then you are permanently in a situation where you have to take unreasonable risks.
Playing defensive becomes utterly impossible because you would have to play so defensive that you would deny yourself exp and gold just to stay out of their range.
Removing flash would make for a better game.
If they had to keep it then i would suggest they change it so that can just barely move you over obstacles. That should remove much of it's viability on the lane.
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I love you guys. Most of you.
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On July 03 2011 02:55 manIC wrote:
I love you guys. Most of you.
I'll take that as compliment.
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honestly if they just itemize flash all will be solved
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On July 03 2011 02:38 Two_DoWn wrote:
Why not buff Ghost so that stuns and slows dont work while you have it up? .
So that everyone can have a 14 second Olaf ult?
I remember back when cleanse gave you 2 second immunity from CC...and that was OP..imagine 14 seconds
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Making it so that 1. You can't flash for 2-3 seconds after receiving damage from a champion source and 2. You can't flash to areas you don't have vision of
would imo help a little, although Flash probably still has too much range.
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On July 02 2011 19:27 BlackPaladin wrote:
My only problem with Taric is I get all the kills every single time I play him because my teammates don't know how to just attack the damn enemy for the last hit/kill. So then we end up with me having all this gold I don't need as a Taric lategame. ;/
Buy Deathcap, Buy Lichbane, buy more AP, kill people with E autoattack.
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If you want to know what it feels like to play without flash? Start a smurf and pick the highest level of experience, everyone you play with will also be a smurf (still bad players tho)
bam nobody has flash. Also you have to play free characters instead of your pet ones so you will understand what it means for, say, kog'maw not to have flash. Some of these characters are practically unplayable without it - I don't mean underpowered, I mean the design does not WORK in a game without flash.
If you have red buff you can wander wherever you like on the map and if there's somebody there, you kill them, doesn't take skill or superior farm. Nothing they can do about it, ghost is complete shit vs red buff.
I am #1 advocate of getting rid of flash asap but you have to understand there is gonna be a TON of unintended consequences, most negative. Primarily junglers and roamers will have to get nerfed into the ground, and a lot of ranged carries are going to require substantial changes.
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So much rage on the rain man stream because TSM lost to LLL and Reginald fed 0-5 on lane.
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To those saying they should remove flash, you'd realize early game would get even more passive and it's not like there's not enough whine about that already.
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On July 03 2011 02:34 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2011 02:30 Two_DoWn wrote:On July 03 2011 02:27 Hynda wrote:On July 03 2011 02:24 Two_DoWn wrote:On July 03 2011 02:10 Hynda wrote:On July 03 2011 00:57 Two_DoWn wrote:On July 03 2011 00:48 Shikyo wrote:On July 03 2011 00:46 Two_DoWn wrote:Yes, nerf the only thing in the entire game that lets you play aggressive. What? Flash actually is the anti-aggressive, there'd be a million times more deaths in the game if no one had flash. This argument is complete and utter bullshit. I dont know who started it, but that person is a moron. Right now, a good player can only play aggressively in lane if they have flash up. Otherwise they WILL play defensive simply because of the risk of a jungle gank killing them. Without flash up or a permanent cv on the enemy jungle it is IMPOSSIBLE to go past the middle of the river on a character without a flash like skill. The risk is just to great to be worth it when you can just keep the minion wave in the middle and farm it there. People start fighting in lane and then someone flashes back and think "OH HEY FLASH IS STUPID IT MAKES THE GAME SO BORING AND DEFENSIVE" without realizing that WITHOUT FLASH THAT FIGHT WOULD NOT HAVE EVEN FUCKING HAPPENED. In low level play there would be more deaths because people there are fucking stupid as shit and rely on flash to survive when they are out of position. But the instant you get past ~1800 and into tournament play removing flash would just force every single solo lane to play super defensively because. Then you just have to force them out. You seem to make the argument that playing super passivly wins you the game. Without flash people will find ways around it, proper warding, proper positioning it will actually require you to keep track of their jungler. If you know he is top then your bot can go all out aggresive if you know he is bot your mid and top can play aggresivly while your opponent play passive as hell untill their jungler comes, which you can spot from a mile away even if you don't have wards. Look at high level streams, look at what happens when someone is about to gank from the jungle even now it shows so clearly in the way the lane changes, people will have to learn to spot that. It requires a new style of play and imo a more skillful one, now you can't just let a jungler do whatever the fuck he wants, you actually have to stop him. Imo it brings more skill if flash was made into blink dagger, ie only able to be used offensivly since some heroes pretty much requires it. As for low level games, if you know your shit you will reach higher ELO faster how is that a bad thing? Now I can't remember which team it was but CLG when they were at the hight of their fame, undisputed numba 1 got completely and utterly crushed by a EU team (god I wish I can remember which one it was) that played with a super aggresive, Ashe, Sona and Nunu comp. CLG tried to start a "Farm-fest" and they completly failed and got royaly stomped. It opens up for plenty of different ways of playing, some guys will end up farmfests ofc, but so be it. I prefer the game to evolve beyond what it is now. I never make the point that playing super passive wins you the game. I make the point that without flash, you literally cannot do anything but play super passive. With the recent annie and malz nerfs, no one can instagib at 6. Without flash, people will just sit back, farm, and not even bother trying to harass because without flash there is no way to follow up aggression. With flash up you can play forward in lane and harass because if the jungler does come you can get out, or flash forward if you do enough damage. Without flash you are FORCED to stay in the middle back of your lane and farm. Why harass if the only way you can get a kill is walking forward, hoping the other person doesnt notice? Or resorting to ghosting at them? Or why bother going forward and harassing at all if it opens you up to a gank you cant get away from? Well the fact that there has been game were super aggresive people have completly wrecked the top team in the world I must disagree with you. I personally think it will help the game evolve, atm I feel it has gone pretty stale as it is, perhaps reworking flash will make it staler but I don't think it will. And how are you forced to stay backand farm if you know were the jungler is? FFS NOWHERE DO I SAY THAT AGGRESSIVE PLAY CANT WIN. IT CAN. I merely make the point that without flash there is no reason to play aggressively unless you have a gap closer because the other person can always just walk away. And there is nothing you can do about it. Everyone plays melee champions without a slow, a stun, or a movement skill. Wait, what? If they walk away then you can farm their lane and push their tower freely while they get 0 farm... they wouldn't just walk away.
So wait, those guys were arguing with shikyo, and now they are mad? Are they new around here?
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On July 03 2011 06:16 r33k wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2011 02:34 Shikyo wrote:On July 03 2011 02:30 Two_DoWn wrote:On July 03 2011 02:27 Hynda wrote:On July 03 2011 02:24 Two_DoWn wrote:On July 03 2011 02:10 Hynda wrote:On July 03 2011 00:57 Two_DoWn wrote:On July 03 2011 00:48 Shikyo wrote:On July 03 2011 00:46 Two_DoWn wrote:Yes, nerf the only thing in the entire game that lets you play aggressive. What? Flash actually is the anti-aggressive, there'd be a million times more deaths in the game if no one had flash. This argument is complete and utter bullshit. I dont know who started it, but that person is a moron. Right now, a good player can only play aggressively in lane if they have flash up. Otherwise they WILL play defensive simply because of the risk of a jungle gank killing them. Without flash up or a permanent cv on the enemy jungle it is IMPOSSIBLE to go past the middle of the river on a character without a flash like skill. The risk is just to great to be worth it when you can just keep the minion wave in the middle and farm it there. People start fighting in lane and then someone flashes back and think "OH HEY FLASH IS STUPID IT MAKES THE GAME SO BORING AND DEFENSIVE" without realizing that WITHOUT FLASH THAT FIGHT WOULD NOT HAVE EVEN FUCKING HAPPENED. In low level play there would be more deaths because people there are fucking stupid as shit and rely on flash to survive when they are out of position. But the instant you get past ~1800 and into tournament play removing flash would just force every single solo lane to play super defensively because. Then you just have to force them out. You seem to make the argument that playing super passivly wins you the game. Without flash people will find ways around it, proper warding, proper positioning it will actually require you to keep track of their jungler. If you know he is top then your bot can go all out aggresive if you know he is bot your mid and top can play aggresivly while your opponent play passive as hell untill their jungler comes, which you can spot from a mile away even if you don't have wards. Look at high level streams, look at what happens when someone is about to gank from the jungle even now it shows so clearly in the way the lane changes, people will have to learn to spot that. It requires a new style of play and imo a more skillful one, now you can't just let a jungler do whatever the fuck he wants, you actually have to stop him. Imo it brings more skill if flash was made into blink dagger, ie only able to be used offensivly since some heroes pretty much requires it. As for low level games, if you know your shit you will reach higher ELO faster how is that a bad thing? Now I can't remember which team it was but CLG when they were at the hight of their fame, undisputed numba 1 got completely and utterly crushed by a EU team (god I wish I can remember which one it was) that played with a super aggresive, Ashe, Sona and Nunu comp. CLG tried to start a "Farm-fest" and they completly failed and got royaly stomped. It opens up for plenty of different ways of playing, some guys will end up farmfests ofc, but so be it. I prefer the game to evolve beyond what it is now. I never make the point that playing super passive wins you the game. I make the point that without flash, you literally cannot do anything but play super passive. With the recent annie and malz nerfs, no one can instagib at 6. Without flash, people will just sit back, farm, and not even bother trying to harass because without flash there is no way to follow up aggression. With flash up you can play forward in lane and harass because if the jungler does come you can get out, or flash forward if you do enough damage. Without flash you are FORCED to stay in the middle back of your lane and farm. Why harass if the only way you can get a kill is walking forward, hoping the other person doesnt notice? Or resorting to ghosting at them? Or why bother going forward and harassing at all if it opens you up to a gank you cant get away from? Well the fact that there has been game were super aggresive people have completly wrecked the top team in the world I must disagree with you. I personally think it will help the game evolve, atm I feel it has gone pretty stale as it is, perhaps reworking flash will make it staler but I don't think it will. And how are you forced to stay backand farm if you know were the jungler is? FFS NOWHERE DO I SAY THAT AGGRESSIVE PLAY CANT WIN. IT CAN. I merely make the point that without flash there is no reason to play aggressively unless you have a gap closer because the other person can always just walk away. And there is nothing you can do about it. Everyone plays melee champions without a slow, a stun, or a movement skill. Wait, what? If they walk away then you can farm their lane and push their tower freely while they get 0 farm... they wouldn't just walk away. So wait, those guys were arguing with shikyo, and now they are mad? Are they new around here?
Hey, I wasn't the main arguer here, I was in a supporting role this time.
game 3 of TSM vs LLL starting soon, wonder why no one is discussing T-T
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On July 03 2011 06:16 r33k wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2011 02:34 Shikyo wrote:On July 03 2011 02:30 Two_DoWn wrote:On July 03 2011 02:27 Hynda wrote:On July 03 2011 02:24 Two_DoWn wrote:On July 03 2011 02:10 Hynda wrote:On July 03 2011 00:57 Two_DoWn wrote:On July 03 2011 00:48 Shikyo wrote:On July 03 2011 00:46 Two_DoWn wrote:Yes, nerf the only thing in the entire game that lets you play aggressive. What? Flash actually is the anti-aggressive, there'd be a million times more deaths in the game if no one had flash. This argument is complete and utter bullshit. I dont know who started it, but that person is a moron. Right now, a good player can only play aggressively in lane if they have flash up. Otherwise they WILL play defensive simply because of the risk of a jungle gank killing them. Without flash up or a permanent cv on the enemy jungle it is IMPOSSIBLE to go past the middle of the river on a character without a flash like skill. The risk is just to great to be worth it when you can just keep the minion wave in the middle and farm it there. People start fighting in lane and then someone flashes back and think "OH HEY FLASH IS STUPID IT MAKES THE GAME SO BORING AND DEFENSIVE" without realizing that WITHOUT FLASH THAT FIGHT WOULD NOT HAVE EVEN FUCKING HAPPENED. In low level play there would be more deaths because people there are fucking stupid as shit and rely on flash to survive when they are out of position. But the instant you get past ~1800 and into tournament play removing flash would just force every single solo lane to play super defensively because. Then you just have to force them out. You seem to make the argument that playing super passivly wins you the game. Without flash people will find ways around it, proper warding, proper positioning it will actually require you to keep track of their jungler. If you know he is top then your bot can go all out aggresive if you know he is bot your mid and top can play aggresivly while your opponent play passive as hell untill their jungler comes, which you can spot from a mile away even if you don't have wards. Look at high level streams, look at what happens when someone is about to gank from the jungle even now it shows so clearly in the way the lane changes, people will have to learn to spot that. It requires a new style of play and imo a more skillful one, now you can't just let a jungler do whatever the fuck he wants, you actually have to stop him. Imo it brings more skill if flash was made into blink dagger, ie only able to be used offensivly since some heroes pretty much requires it. As for low level games, if you know your shit you will reach higher ELO faster how is that a bad thing? Now I can't remember which team it was but CLG when they were at the hight of their fame, undisputed numba 1 got completely and utterly crushed by a EU team (god I wish I can remember which one it was) that played with a super aggresive, Ashe, Sona and Nunu comp. CLG tried to start a "Farm-fest" and they completly failed and got royaly stomped. It opens up for plenty of different ways of playing, some guys will end up farmfests ofc, but so be it. I prefer the game to evolve beyond what it is now. I never make the point that playing super passive wins you the game. I make the point that without flash, you literally cannot do anything but play super passive. With the recent annie and malz nerfs, no one can instagib at 6. Without flash, people will just sit back, farm, and not even bother trying to harass because without flash there is no way to follow up aggression. With flash up you can play forward in lane and harass because if the jungler does come you can get out, or flash forward if you do enough damage. Without flash you are FORCED to stay in the middle back of your lane and farm. Why harass if the only way you can get a kill is walking forward, hoping the other person doesnt notice? Or resorting to ghosting at them? Or why bother going forward and harassing at all if it opens you up to a gank you cant get away from? Well the fact that there has been game were super aggresive people have completly wrecked the top team in the world I must disagree with you. I personally think it will help the game evolve, atm I feel it has gone pretty stale as it is, perhaps reworking flash will make it staler but I don't think it will. And how are you forced to stay backand farm if you know were the jungler is? FFS NOWHERE DO I SAY THAT AGGRESSIVE PLAY CANT WIN. IT CAN. I merely make the point that without flash there is no reason to play aggressively unless you have a gap closer because the other person can always just walk away. And there is nothing you can do about it. Everyone plays melee champions without a slow, a stun, or a movement skill. Wait, what? If they walk away then you can farm their lane and push their tower freely while they get 0 farm... they wouldn't just walk away. So wait, those guys were arguing with shikyo, and now they are mad? Are they new around here?
I was arguing with hynda. And I'm frankly offended that you would imply I am new here.
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United States37500 Posts
Watched game 2 but not 1. Looked like too much map control. OddOne's Oracle really paid for itself. He stole Noc's Blue twice. Warding wins games.
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On July 03 2011 06:21 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2011 06:16 r33k wrote:On July 03 2011 02:34 Shikyo wrote:On July 03 2011 02:30 Two_DoWn wrote:On July 03 2011 02:27 Hynda wrote:On July 03 2011 02:24 Two_DoWn wrote:On July 03 2011 02:10 Hynda wrote:On July 03 2011 00:57 Two_DoWn wrote:On July 03 2011 00:48 Shikyo wrote:On July 03 2011 00:46 Two_DoWn wrote:
[quote]
Yes, nerf the only thing in the entire game that lets you play aggressive. What? Flash actually is the anti-aggressive, there'd be a million times more deaths in the game if no one had flash. This argument is complete and utter bullshit. I dont know who started it, but that person is a moron. Right now, a good player can only play aggressively in lane if they have flash up. Otherwise they WILL play defensive simply because of the risk of a jungle gank killing them. Without flash up or a permanent cv on the enemy jungle it is IMPOSSIBLE to go past the middle of the river on a character without a flash like skill. The risk is just to great to be worth it when you can just keep the minion wave in the middle and farm it there. People start fighting in lane and then someone flashes back and think "OH HEY FLASH IS STUPID IT MAKES THE GAME SO BORING AND DEFENSIVE" without realizing that WITHOUT FLASH THAT FIGHT WOULD NOT HAVE EVEN FUCKING HAPPENED. In low level play there would be more deaths because people there are fucking stupid as shit and rely on flash to survive when they are out of position. But the instant you get past ~1800 and into tournament play removing flash would just force every single solo lane to play super defensively because. Then you just have to force them out. You seem to make the argument that playing super passivly wins you the game. Without flash people will find ways around it, proper warding, proper positioning it will actually require you to keep track of their jungler. If you know he is top then your bot can go all out aggresive if you know he is bot your mid and top can play aggresivly while your opponent play passive as hell untill their jungler comes, which you can spot from a mile away even if you don't have wards. Look at high level streams, look at what happens when someone is about to gank from the jungle even now it shows so clearly in the way the lane changes, people will have to learn to spot that. It requires a new style of play and imo a more skillful one, now you can't just let a jungler do whatever the fuck he wants, you actually have to stop him. Imo it brings more skill if flash was made into blink dagger, ie only able to be used offensivly since some heroes pretty much requires it. As for low level games, if you know your shit you will reach higher ELO faster how is that a bad thing? Now I can't remember which team it was but CLG when they were at the hight of their fame, undisputed numba 1 got completely and utterly crushed by a EU team (god I wish I can remember which one it was) that played with a super aggresive, Ashe, Sona and Nunu comp. CLG tried to start a "Farm-fest" and they completly failed and got royaly stomped. It opens up for plenty of different ways of playing, some guys will end up farmfests ofc, but so be it. I prefer the game to evolve beyond what it is now. I never make the point that playing super passive wins you the game. I make the point that without flash, you literally cannot do anything but play super passive. With the recent annie and malz nerfs, no one can instagib at 6. Without flash, people will just sit back, farm, and not even bother trying to harass because without flash there is no way to follow up aggression. With flash up you can play forward in lane and harass because if the jungler does come you can get out, or flash forward if you do enough damage. Without flash you are FORCED to stay in the middle back of your lane and farm. Why harass if the only way you can get a kill is walking forward, hoping the other person doesnt notice? Or resorting to ghosting at them? Or why bother going forward and harassing at all if it opens you up to a gank you cant get away from? Well the fact that there has been game were super aggresive people have completly wrecked the top team in the world I must disagree with you. I personally think it will help the game evolve, atm I feel it has gone pretty stale as it is, perhaps reworking flash will make it staler but I don't think it will. And how are you forced to stay backand farm if you know were the jungler is? FFS NOWHERE DO I SAY THAT AGGRESSIVE PLAY CANT WIN. IT CAN. I merely make the point that without flash there is no reason to play aggressively unless you have a gap closer because the other person can always just walk away. And there is nothing you can do about it. Everyone plays melee champions without a slow, a stun, or a movement skill. Wait, what? If they walk away then you can farm their lane and push their tower freely while they get 0 farm... they wouldn't just walk away. So wait, those guys were arguing with shikyo, and now they are mad? Are they new around here? I was arguing with hynda. And I'm frankly offended that you would imply I am new here.
Regardless, you let him into your quote-pyramid. You knew what you were getting yourself into.
@neo: lv5 oracles was the main point of conversation I had with american teams at dreamhack, clg stopped doing it and it kind of fell off the map as a tactic but it's extremely strong against EU teams. Also oddone getting back his confidence as king of the jungle won them the game, recently his play hasn't been what it used to be.
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EPT
