General Discussion/Off-topic - Page 979

On July 03 2011 00:48 Shikyo wrote:

What?

Flash actually is the anti-aggressive, there'd be a million times more deaths in the game if no one had flash.

On July 03 2011 00:48 Shikyo wrote:

What?

Flash actually is the anti-aggressive, there'd be a million times more deaths in the game if no one had flash.

On July 03 2011 00:57 Two_DoWn wrote:
This argument is complete and utter bullshit. I dont know who started it, but that person is a moron.

Right now, a good player can only play aggressively in lane if they have flash up. Otherwise they WILL play defensive simply because of the risk of a jungle gank killing them. Without flash up or a permanent cv on the enemy jungle it is IMPOSSIBLE to go past the middle of the river on a character without a flash like skill. The risk is just to great to be worth it when you can just keep the minion wave in the middle and farm it there.

People start fighting in lane and then someone flashes back and think "OH HEY FLASH IS STUPID IT MAKES THE GAME SO BORING AND DEFENSIVE" without realizing that WITHOUT FLASH THAT FIGHT WOULD NOT HAVE EVEN FUCKING HAPPENED.

On July 03 2011 00:57 Two_DoWn wrote:
In low level play there would be more deaths because people there are fucking stupid as shit and rely on flash to survive when they are out of position. But the instant you get past ~1800 and into tournament play removing flash would just force every single solo lane to play super defensively because.

On July 03 2011 01:03 Slayer91 wrote:
Flash will always be a naturally defensive skill. Assuming everyone has flash, the defender in lane will flash toward the turret, favouring the defender, and in teamfights if you flash away from the teamfight you burn 1 flash but to counteract the effect of the flash they'd have to use 5 flashes and it would also bring them closer to your team.

It has nothing to do with gap closing skills.

I suppose the other element to it is that "playing aggressive" often means relying on flash to get away. But if they want games to have more kills, definitely taking away flash will help.

If you think flash is fine the way it is you're wrong. They want you to have 2 summoner skills. Right now its 10 flashes in every game unless you pick somebody so unburstable that you don't need flash like singed, so you basically have 1 summoner skill. They might as well give it to you inbuilt and give you 2 extra summoners the way it is now.

Two-down is right in that jungle ganks will be much more likely to be kills but because of flash there barely is any deaths in lane because having to burn flash and then getting ganked again is not hugely different than not having flash.

On July 03 2011 01:12 Two_DoWn wrote:

That is the argument I never get. Is it true for shitty players? Yes. But in a tournament setting? Not buying it. Pro's already play super defensively WITH flash. Remove it? Your looking at 25 minute laning farmfests.

And why is it a problem that flash is taken on everyone. If everyone has it, mobility is increased, and games are more interesting. For some reason people think that a game without kills is a game without action. But if Im watching a game with flash initiates into flashes away into counter flash initiates, even if no one dies, ITS SOMETHING COOL TO SEE. Great escapes are almost as cool as deaths.

And the reason everyone takes it now, lets not forget, is because riot nerfed ghost a while back. It isnt that flash is op as an escape, its that the other escape option you have sucks balls.

On July 03 2011 00:57 Two_DoWn wrote:

This argument is complete and utter bullshit. I dont know who started it, but that person is a moron.

Right now, a good player can only play aggressively in lane if they have flash up. Otherwise they WILL play defensive simply because of the risk of a jungle gank killing them. Without flash up or a permanent cv on the enemy jungle it is IMPOSSIBLE to go past the middle of the river on a character without a flash like skill. The risk is just to great to be worth it when you can just keep the minion wave in the middle and farm it there.

People start fighting in lane and then someone flashes back and think "OH HEY FLASH IS STUPID IT MAKES THE GAME SO BORING AND DEFENSIVE" without realizing that WITHOUT FLASH THAT FIGHT WOULD NOT HAVE EVEN FUCKING HAPPENED.

In low level play there would be more deaths because people there are fucking stupid as shit and rely on flash to survive when they are out of position. But the instant you get past ~1800 and into tournament play removing flash would just force every single solo lane to play super defensively because.

On July 03 2011 00:57 Two_DoWn wrote:

This argument is complete and utter bullshit. I dont know who started it, but that person is a moron.

Right now, a good player can only play aggressively in lane if they have flash up. Otherwise they WILL play defensive simply because of the risk of a jungle gank killing them. Without flash up or a permanent cv on the enemy jungle it is IMPOSSIBLE to go past the middle of the river on a character without a flash like skill. The risk is just to great to be worth it when you can just keep the minion wave in the middle and farm it there.

People start fighting in lane and then someone flashes back and think "OH HEY FLASH IS STUPID IT MAKES THE GAME SO BORING AND DEFENSIVE" without realizing that WITHOUT FLASH THAT FIGHT WOULD NOT HAVE EVEN FUCKING HAPPENED.

In low level play there would be more deaths because people there are fucking stupid as shit and rely on flash to survive when they are out of position. But the instant you get past ~1800 and into tournament play removing flash would just force every single solo lane to play super defensively because.

On July 03 2011 02:17 BlackPaladin wrote:
High level players already spot that and act accordingly. (your entire jungler premise)

On July 03 2011 02:10 Hynda wrote:
Then you just have to force them out. You seem to make the argument that playing super passivly wins you the game. Without flash people will find ways around it, proper warding, proper positioning it will actually require you to keep track of their jungler. If you know he is top then your bot can go all out aggresive if you know he is bot your mid and top can play aggresivly while your opponent play passive as hell untill their jungler comes, which you can spot from a mile away even if you don't have wards. Look at high level streams, look at what happens when someone is about to gank from the jungle even now it shows so clearly in the way the lane changes, people will have to learn to spot that.

It requires a new style of play and imo a more skillful one, now you can't just let a jungler do whatever the fuck he wants, you actually have to stop him.

Imo it brings more skill if flash was made into blink dagger, ie only able to be used offensivly since some heroes pretty much requires it.

As for low level games, if you know your shit you will reach higher ELO faster how is that a bad thing?

Now I can't remember which team it was but CLG when they were at the hight of their fame, undisputed numba 1 got completely and utterly crushed by a EU team (god I wish I can remember which one it was) that played with a super aggresive, Ashe, Sona and Nunu comp. CLG tried to start a "Farm-fest" and they completly failed and got royaly stomped. It opens up for plenty of different ways of playing, some guys will end up farmfests ofc, but so be it. I prefer the game to evolve beyond what it is now.

On July 03 2011 01:53 BlackPaladin wrote:
lol flash making things more passive. I think I use flash offensively more often than defensively.

I think people just want to be able to complain about things.

On July 03 2011 02:24 Two_DoWn wrote:

I never make the point that playing super passive wins you the game. I make the point that without flash, you literally cannot do anything but play super passive. With the recent annie and malz nerfs, no one can instagib at 6. Without flash, people will just sit back, farm, and not even bother trying to harass because without flash there is no way to follow up aggression. With flash up you can play forward in lane and harass because if the jungler does come you can get out, or flash forward if you do enough damage. Without flash you are FORCED to stay in the middle back of your lane and farm.

Why harass if the only way you can get a kill is walking forward, hoping the other person doesnt notice? Or resorting to ghosting at them? Or why bother going forward and harassing at all if it opens you up to a gank you cant get away from?

On July 03 2011 02:27 Hynda wrote:

Well the fact that there has been game were super aggresive people have completly wrecked the top team in the world I must disagree with you. I personally think it will help the game evolve, atm I feel it has gone pretty stale as it is, perhaps reworking flash will make it staler but I don't think it will. And how are you forced to stay backand farm if you know were the jungler is?