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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On July 03 2011 00:48 Shikyo wrote: What? Flash actually is the anti-aggressive, there'd be a million times more deaths in the game if no one had flash. Only with the huge increase in gap closing skills lately. But yes. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On July 03 2011 00:48 Shikyo wrote: What? Flash actually is the anti-aggressive, there'd be a million times more deaths in the game if no one had flash. This argument is complete and utter bullshit. I dont know who started it, but that person is a moron. Right now, a good player can only play aggressively in lane if they have flash up. Otherwise they WILL play defensive simply because of the risk of a jungle gank killing them. Without flash up or a permanent cv on the enemy jungle it is IMPOSSIBLE to go past the middle of the river on a character without a flash like skill. The risk is just to great to be worth it when you can just keep the minion wave in the middle and farm it there. People start fighting in lane and then someone flashes back and think "OH HEY FLASH IS STUPID IT MAKES THE GAME SO BORING AND DEFENSIVE" without realizing that WITHOUT FLASH THAT FIGHT WOULD NOT HAVE EVEN FUCKING HAPPENED. In low level play there would be more deaths because people there are fucking stupid as shit and rely on flash to survive when they are out of position. But the instant you get past ~1800 and into tournament play removing flash would just force every single solo lane to play super defensively because. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
It has nothing to do with gap closing skills. I suppose the other element to it is that "playing aggressive" often means relying on flash to get away. But if they want games to have more kills, definitely taking away flash will help. If you think flash is fine the way it is you're wrong. They want you to have 2 summoner skills. Right now its 10 flashes in every game unless you pick somebody so unburstable that you don't need flash like singed, so you basically have 1 summoner skill. They might as well give it to you inbuilt and give you 2 extra summoners the way it is now. Two-down is right in that jungle ganks will be much more likely to be kills but because of flash there barely is any deaths in lane because having to burn flash and then getting ganked again is not hugely different than not having flash. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On July 03 2011 00:57 Two_DoWn wrote: This argument is complete and utter bullshit. I dont know who started it, but that person is a moron. Right now, a good player can only play aggressively in lane if they have flash up. Otherwise they WILL play defensive simply because of the risk of a jungle gank killing them. Without flash up or a permanent cv on the enemy jungle it is IMPOSSIBLE to go past the middle of the river on a character without a flash like skill. The risk is just to great to be worth it when you can just keep the minion wave in the middle and farm it there. People start fighting in lane and then someone flashes back and think "OH HEY FLASH IS STUPID IT MAKES THE GAME SO BORING AND DEFENSIVE" without realizing that WITHOUT FLASH THAT FIGHT WOULD NOT HAVE EVEN FUCKING HAPPENED. Again, this is the problem with this discussion. Nobody, including Riot, knows what the hell they mean by "aggressive early game". There are two possible meanings to "the early game is too passive", and Riot never clarifies which one they mean: 1) Not enough ganks/kills happen early game 2) There's not enough harass/poke/trades in lane and it's too much of a farm-fest. These two are opposed and it makes many changes unlikely to result in anything, because of how they're inter-related. Nerfing Flash makes jungle ganks stronger--it makes a gank more likely to result in kills, but it also makes people play safer in lane, making ganks less likely to be open. On July 03 2011 00:57 Two_DoWn wrote: In low level play there would be more deaths because people there are fucking stupid as shit and rely on flash to survive when they are out of position. But the instant you get past ~1800 and into tournament play removing flash would just force every single solo lane to play super defensively because. To be fair, in tournament level play ward coverage is extensive enough that a lot of the time, ganks don't happen because they get seen from a mile away, and people do get to play aggressive in lane because wards+CV give away the jungler's position 24/7. I don't think a Flash nerf would affect that much. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On July 03 2011 01:03 Slayer91 wrote: Flash will always be a naturally defensive skill. Assuming everyone has flash, the defender in lane will flash toward the turret, favouring the defender, and in teamfights if you flash away from the teamfight you burn 1 flash but to counteract the effect of the flash they'd have to use 5 flashes and it would also bring them closer to your team. It has nothing to do with gap closing skills. I suppose the other element to it is that "playing aggressive" often means relying on flash to get away. But if they want games to have more kills, definitely taking away flash will help. If you think flash is fine the way it is you're wrong. They want you to have 2 summoner skills. Right now its 10 flashes in every game unless you pick somebody so unburstable that you don't need flash like singed, so you basically have 1 summoner skill. They might as well give it to you inbuilt and give you 2 extra summoners the way it is now. Two-down is right in that jungle ganks will be much more likely to be kills but because of flash there barely is any deaths in lane because having to burn flash and then getting ganked again is not hugely different than not having flash. That is the argument I never get. Is it true for shitty players? Yes. But in a tournament setting? Not buying it. Pro's already play super defensively WITH flash. Remove it? Your looking at 25 minute laning farmfests. And why is it a problem that flash is taken on everyone. If everyone has it, mobility is increased, and games are more interesting. For some reason people think that a game without kills is a game without action. But if Im watching a game with flash initiates into flashes away into counter flash initiates, even if no one dies, ITS SOMETHING COOL TO SEE. Great escapes are almost as cool as deaths. And the reason everyone takes it now, lets not forget, is because riot nerfed ghost a while back. It isnt that flash is op as an escape, its that the other escape option you have sucks balls. | ||
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Celestial
United States652 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On July 03 2011 01:12 Two_DoWn wrote: That is the argument I never get. Is it true for shitty players? Yes. But in a tournament setting? Not buying it. Pro's already play super defensively WITH flash. Remove it? Your looking at 25 minute laning farmfests. And why is it a problem that flash is taken on everyone. If everyone has it, mobility is increased, and games are more interesting. For some reason people think that a game without kills is a game without action. But if Im watching a game with flash initiates into flashes away into counter flash initiates, even if no one dies, ITS SOMETHING COOL TO SEE. Great escapes are almost as cool as deaths. And the reason everyone takes it now, lets not forget, is because riot nerfed ghost a while back. It isnt that flash is op as an escape, its that the other escape option you have sucks balls. 5v5 teamfights will happen and there will be much less people getting away with no health. People dying randomly around the map happens less and less in high level games but if somebody gets caught they are basically dead. lol@them nerfing ghost when clearly flash was overused. 25 minute farm fests are standard anyway. lol Junglers know they have flash and know they have to burn it if they are playing too agressive. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On July 03 2011 00:57 Two_DoWn wrote: This argument is complete and utter bullshit. I dont know who started it, but that person is a moron. Right now, a good player can only play aggressively in lane if they have flash up. Otherwise they WILL play defensive simply because of the risk of a jungle gank killing them. Without flash up or a permanent cv on the enemy jungle it is IMPOSSIBLE to go past the middle of the river on a character without a flash like skill. The risk is just to great to be worth it when you can just keep the minion wave in the middle and farm it there. People start fighting in lane and then someone flashes back and think "OH HEY FLASH IS STUPID IT MAKES THE GAME SO BORING AND DEFENSIVE" without realizing that WITHOUT FLASH THAT FIGHT WOULD NOT HAVE EVEN FUCKING HAPPENED. In low level play there would be more deaths because people there are fucking stupid as shit and rely on flash to survive when they are out of position. But the instant you get past ~1800 and into tournament play removing flash would just force every single solo lane to play super defensively because. They can't play defensively the whole time or they'll be completely zoned out of minions. They're going to have to come up with counterplay or they won't have minion kills, this also in turn might increase the roaming and ganking comps alot more and so and so on. Mid lane wouldn't be safe either, they'd have to literally towerhug and they wouldn't do that. Hence, more ganks and deaths. You could easily even dive people with exhaust/ignite. Not to mention that it's very common to see people completely caught out of position(inside dragon pit for instance) escape with flash when it otherwise would be impossible, and also insta-flashing away from being initiated on in teamfights. | ||
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Irave
United States9965 Posts
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BlackPaladin
United States9316 Posts
I think people just want to be able to complain about things. | ||
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Celestial
United States652 Posts
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Hynda
Sweden2226 Posts
On July 03 2011 00:57 Two_DoWn wrote: Then you just have to force them out. You seem to make the argument that playing super passivly wins you the game. Without flash people will find ways around it, proper warding, proper positioning it will actually require you to keep track of their jungler. If you know he is top then your bot can go all out aggresive if you know he is bot your mid and top can play aggresivly while your opponent play passive as hell untill their jungler comes, which you can spot from a mile away even if you don't have wards. Look at high level streams, look at what happens when someone is about to gank from the jungle even now it shows so clearly in the way the lane changes, people will have to learn to spot that. This argument is complete and utter bullshit. I dont know who started it, but that person is a moron. Right now, a good player can only play aggressively in lane if they have flash up. Otherwise they WILL play defensive simply because of the risk of a jungle gank killing them. Without flash up or a permanent cv on the enemy jungle it is IMPOSSIBLE to go past the middle of the river on a character without a flash like skill. The risk is just to great to be worth it when you can just keep the minion wave in the middle and farm it there. People start fighting in lane and then someone flashes back and think "OH HEY FLASH IS STUPID IT MAKES THE GAME SO BORING AND DEFENSIVE" without realizing that WITHOUT FLASH THAT FIGHT WOULD NOT HAVE EVEN FUCKING HAPPENED. In low level play there would be more deaths because people there are fucking stupid as shit and rely on flash to survive when they are out of position. But the instant you get past ~1800 and into tournament play removing flash would just force every single solo lane to play super defensively because. It requires a new style of play and imo a more skillful one, now you can't just let a jungler do whatever the fuck he wants, you actually have to stop him. Imo it brings more skill if flash was made into blink dagger, ie only able to be used offensivly since some heroes pretty much requires it. As for low level games, if you know your shit you will reach higher ELO faster how is that a bad thing? Now I can't remember which team it was but CLG when they were at the hight of their fame, undisputed numba 1 got completely and utterly crushed by a EU team (god I wish I can remember which one it was) that played with a super aggresive, Ashe, Sona and Nunu comp. CLG tried to start a "Farm-fest" and they completly failed and got royaly stomped. It opens up for plenty of different ways of playing, some guys will end up farmfests ofc, but so be it. I prefer the game to evolve beyond what it is now. | ||
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BlackPaladin
United States9316 Posts
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Hynda
Sweden2226 Posts
On July 03 2011 02:17 BlackPaladin wrote: They didn't at dreamhack, as soon as flash was down they hogged like a beast. High level players already spot that and act accordingly. (your entire jungler premise) | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On July 03 2011 02:10 Hynda wrote: Then you just have to force them out. You seem to make the argument that playing super passivly wins you the game. Without flash people will find ways around it, proper warding, proper positioning it will actually require you to keep track of their jungler. If you know he is top then your bot can go all out aggresive if you know he is bot your mid and top can play aggresivly while your opponent play passive as hell untill their jungler comes, which you can spot from a mile away even if you don't have wards. Look at high level streams, look at what happens when someone is about to gank from the jungle even now it shows so clearly in the way the lane changes, people will have to learn to spot that. It requires a new style of play and imo a more skillful one, now you can't just let a jungler do whatever the fuck he wants, you actually have to stop him. Imo it brings more skill if flash was made into blink dagger, ie only able to be used offensivly since some heroes pretty much requires it. As for low level games, if you know your shit you will reach higher ELO faster how is that a bad thing? Now I can't remember which team it was but CLG when they were at the hight of their fame, undisputed numba 1 got completely and utterly crushed by a EU team (god I wish I can remember which one it was) that played with a super aggresive, Ashe, Sona and Nunu comp. CLG tried to start a "Farm-fest" and they completly failed and got royaly stomped. It opens up for plenty of different ways of playing, some guys will end up farmfests ofc, but so be it. I prefer the game to evolve beyond what it is now. I never make the point that playing super passive wins you the game. I make the point that without flash, you literally cannot do anything but play super passive. With the recent annie and malz nerfs, no one can instagib at 6. Without flash, people will just sit back, farm, and not even bother trying to harass because without flash there is no way to follow up aggression. With flash up you can play forward in lane and harass because if the jungler does come you can get out, or flash forward if you do enough damage. Without flash you are FORCED to stay in the middle back of your lane and farm. Why harass if the only way you can get a kill is walking forward, hoping the other person doesnt notice? Or resorting to ghosting at them? Or why bother going forward and harassing at all if it opens you up to a gank you cant get away from? | ||
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red_b
United States1267 Posts
I would like to see this game get a bit more like dota/hon in that I wouldnt mind the summoners being moved to items. I'd love to see a summoner spell rework, although Im not sure what I would do. to be honest, the defensive play in LoL is a bummer and I will strongly consider dota 2, even if it doesnt have caster scaling. btw riot is going after most of the characters I play nowadays with the nerfs. I hope they dont nerf irelia any more, honestly. well at least they gave me late game annie to make up for it. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On July 03 2011 01:53 BlackPaladin wrote: lol flash making things more passive. I think I use flash offensively more often than defensively. I think people just want to be able to complain about things. The way in which you use Flash doesn't really matter at all, as 99% of the high level players save it for escapes unless it guarantees a kill. Flash is so good that I've even started picking it up on Tryndamere even though he has his spin already. | ||
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Hynda
Sweden2226 Posts
On July 03 2011 02:24 Two_DoWn wrote: I never make the point that playing super passive wins you the game. I make the point that without flash, you literally cannot do anything but play super passive. With the recent annie and malz nerfs, no one can instagib at 6. Without flash, people will just sit back, farm, and not even bother trying to harass because without flash there is no way to follow up aggression. With flash up you can play forward in lane and harass because if the jungler does come you can get out, or flash forward if you do enough damage. Without flash you are FORCED to stay in the middle back of your lane and farm. Why harass if the only way you can get a kill is walking forward, hoping the other person doesnt notice? Or resorting to ghosting at them? Or why bother going forward and harassing at all if it opens you up to a gank you cant get away from? Well the fact that there has been game where super aggresive people have completly wrecked the top team in the world I must disagree with you. I personally think it will help the game evolve, atm I feel it has gone pretty stale as it is, perhaps reworking flash will make it staler but I don't think it will. And how are you forced to stay back and farm if you know where the jungler is? | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On July 03 2011 02:27 Hynda wrote: Well the fact that there has been game were super aggresive people have completly wrecked the top team in the world I must disagree with you. I personally think it will help the game evolve, atm I feel it has gone pretty stale as it is, perhaps reworking flash will make it staler but I don't think it will. And how are you forced to stay backand farm if you know were the jungler is? FFS NOWHERE DO I SAY THAT AGGRESSIVE PLAY CANT WIN. IT CAN. I merely make the point that without flash there is no reason to play aggressively unless you have a gap closer because the other person can always just walk away. And there is nothing you can do about it. | ||
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