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On March 28 2011 20:16 spinesheath wrote:
Maokai has 20% damage reduction and a ton of regen from his passive in teamfights. Imo that counts as innate mitigation. He can just stay near a carry and use his disables on enemies that go for the carry, which doesn't require a lot of tankiness.
While that may be true, Maokai's skillset just isn't as good at protecting a carry as Blitz' or Alistar's, and can't be used for initiation either.
The core problem seems to be that Riot wants to move away from supports who can subsist without farming, so they try to avoid a Janna or Alistar-esque skillset. The problem is that a support with farm isn't as useful as just about anything else. I'd much rather have another tank or tanky DPS with farm than any support champion who requires it to be as good as Janna/Taric/Zilean are now.
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Maokai is hugely underrated IMO, but he's definitely not support. He's a lot more like Gragas than a support.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
I think they might be perfectly fine with Zilean. The guy has:
1) Crazy early game.
2) Assistant abilities that work without items.
3) Still an ability to grow large with items, AP Zilean does exist, he's just not as good as support because there's a thousand champs who already do the same thing.
Nothing Karma has, for instance. I actually take back what I said about Lux, she's borderline playable without farm, but still not as good as Janna/Zilean, probably abit below Taric as well (Taric needs items just as much, but his skillset is better for support imo).
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
On March 29 2011 04:58 Mogwai wrote:
Maokai is hugely underrated IMO, but he's definitely not support. He's a lot more like Gragas than a support.
Maokai is actually crazy good in some situations, yesterday I had a game on TT where we got retardedly dominated at first, then I got frozen heart and I got literally unkillable with that passive. Went from 1-6 to 10-6 in like 7 minutes vs Gragas/WW/Tryndamere. Still can't understand just how much AP-oriented items he needs and when, but I agree he's underrated.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 29 2011 04:46 Seuss wrote:
The core problem seems to be that Riot wants to move away from supports who can subsist without farming, so they try to avoid a Janna or Alistar-esque skillset. The problem is that a support with farm isn't as useful as just about anything else. I'd much rather have another tank or tanky DPS with farm than any support champion who requires it to be as good as Janna/Taric/Zilean are now.
I wouldn't go that far. Zilean and Morgana make perfectly good use of farm (getting AP toward his ult makes Zilean work super-well with bulky DPS champs). It's just that those specific champs in question (Karma/Maokai) don't seem to scale off farm well enough to compete with other potential solos, while also not having good enough zero-farm utility.
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United States37500 Posts
On March 29 2011 04:58 Mogwai wrote:
Maokai is hugely underrated IMO, but he's definitely not support. He's a lot more like Gragas than a support.
I think he's a great roamer option. Alistar is still king but Maokai should fare better than Janna or Taric.
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I feel like the biggest thing Maokai needs is for his movespeed and base HP to not be so awful.
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On March 29 2011 05:05 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2011 04:58 Mogwai wrote:
Maokai is hugely underrated IMO, but he's definitely not support. He's a lot more like Gragas than a support. I think he's a great roamer option. Alistar is still king but Maokai should fare better than Janna or Taric.
he can do really funny shit to junglers sometimes. For instance, I love jacking their wraiths at the start by stacking 3 herpdederps on their spawn. You can likewise fuck them up by stacking 2 of them in a bush and then throwing a 3rd when they come by and combo it all with your W -> Q. But all that being said, I prefer to take top with him and push it non-stop and use that to free me up for roaming rather than playing a level-less roamer like Alistar/Taric/Janna, as I believe Maokai needs farm and levels to be effective.
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United States37500 Posts
On March 29 2011 05:15 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2011 05:05 NeoIllusions wrote:On March 29 2011 04:58 Mogwai wrote:
Maokai is hugely underrated IMO, but he's definitely not support. He's a lot more like Gragas than a support. I think he's a great roamer option. Alistar is still king but Maokai should fare better than Janna or Taric. he can do really funny shit to junglers sometimes. For instance, I love jacking their wraiths at the start by stacking 3 herpdederps on their spawn. You can likewise fuck them up by stacking 2 of them in a bush and then throwing a 3rd when they come by and combo it all with your W -> Q. But all that being said, I prefer to take top with him and push it non-stop and use that to free me up for roaming rather than playing a level-less roamer like Alistar/Taric/Janna, as I believe Maokai needs farm and levels to be effective.
Yeah, that's definitely his failing as a roamer. Maokai is really item dependent. But overall kit, he has greater versatility than Janna/Taric. He definitely needs to hold the lanes for mid and top when solos decide to b, otherwise he falls behind fast around level 11 with no items.
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Part of the problem of supports in this game. You try to make items that are cheap and effective so supports can use them and afford them, but they end up being overpowered when used by champs they arent designed for. Locket anyone?
EDIT: I HAD AN IDEA THAT MAY NOT SUCK FOR ONCE
The problem with support items was that they ended up being too good on non supports when they bought them, hence the constant nerfs. What if instead of combine items, the components were single items that when purchased in and held in inventory created the better effect. Other characters wouldnt be able to use them as effectively since they would hog valuable inventory space, while supports who only need boots and a slot for wards would be able to dedicate their entire space for inventory interaction items.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
On March 29 2011 05:34 Two_DoWn wrote:
Part of the problem of supports in this game. You try to make items that are cheap and effective so supports can use them and afford them, but they end up being overpowered when used by champs they arent designed for. Locket anyone?
EDIT: I HAD AN IDEA THAT MAY NOT SUCK FOR ONCE
The problem with support items was that they ended up being too good on non supports when they bought them, hence the constant nerfs. What if instead of combine items, the components were single items that when purchased in and held in inventory created the better effect. Other characters wouldnt be able to use them as effectively since they would hog valuable inventory space, while supports who only need boots and a slot for wards would be able to dedicate their entire space for inventory interaction items.
Another solution would be increase the amount of viable consumables. Like a slowing grenade or something. Carries won't buy those because of inventory issues and "wasted" gold issues, but supports will revel in that.
The best support item in DotA/HoN is most certainly the sheepstick, maybe (only maybe) you could design a semi-expensive item with little useful stats that has a reasonable disable (root or silence) as it's active ability. Randuin's and Gunblade's disables only come as side bonuses to great stats, so they don't count.
The third idea is an item that is only useable on allies, shielding or healing them. Carries don't buy anything that can't be used to damage enemies/save themselves.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 29 2011 05:34 Two_DoWn wrote:
Part of the problem of supports in this game. You try to make items that are cheap and effective so supports can use them and afford them, but they end up being overpowered when used by champs they arent designed for. Locket anyone?
They do this just fine with aura items. You don't want Aegis or Soul Shroud on non-support champs, and they're great items for the support.
The problem with Locket IMO was that so little of the value was in the aura component. You definitely don't want 2 Aegises or 2 Soul Shrouds, but with Locket, the non-Aura effects were so good that so long as you were playing champs that could make use of the proc, it didn't matter at all that you were getting overlapping aura effects.
On March 29 2011 06:19 BluzMan wrote:
The best support item in DotA/HoN is most certainly the sheepstick, maybe (only maybe) you could design a semi-expensive item with little useful stats that has a reasonable disable (root or silence) as it's active ability. Randuin's and Gunblade's disables only come as side bonuses to great stats, so they don't count.
Sheepstick is not a "support" item. Supports don't get to sit around and AFK-farm a Mystic Staff.
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On March 29 2011 06:19 BluzMan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2011 05:34 Two_DoWn wrote:
Part of the problem of supports in this game. You try to make items that are cheap and effective so supports can use them and afford them, but they end up being overpowered when used by champs they arent designed for. Locket anyone?
EDIT: I HAD AN IDEA THAT MAY NOT SUCK FOR ONCE
The problem with support items was that they ended up being too good on non supports when they bought them, hence the constant nerfs. What if instead of combine items, the components were single items that when purchased in and held in inventory created the better effect. Other characters wouldnt be able to use them as effectively since they would hog valuable inventory space, while supports who only need boots and a slot for wards would be able to dedicate their entire space for inventory interaction items. Another solution would be increase the amount of viable consumables. Like a slowing grenade or something. Carries won't buy those because of inventory issues and "wasted" gold issues, but supports will revel in that. The best support item in DotA/HoN is most certainly the sheepstick, maybe (only maybe) you could design a semi-expensive item with little useful stats that has a reasonable disable (root or silence) as it's active ability. Randuin's and Gunblade's disables only come as side bonuses to great stats, so they don't count. The third idea is an item that is only useable on allies, shielding or healing them. Carries don't buy anything that can't be used to damage enemies/save themselves.
I'd love to see orchid in game, it would kick so much arse.
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didn't everyone buy a sheepstick in DotA so that you could just polylock bitches?
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On March 29 2011 06:20 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2011 05:34 Two_DoWn wrote:
Part of the problem of supports in this game. You try to make items that are cheap and effective so supports can use them and afford them, but they end up being overpowered when used by champs they arent designed for. Locket anyone? They do this just fine with aura items. You don't want Aegis or Soul Shroud on non-support champs, and they're great items for the support.
I don't know, the aura items that I only see on support champions are Soul Shroud and Reverie. Everything else can and has been built on other champions, even Aegis (which can be a big pick for tanks). Half of the aura items you'll never see on anything less than an offtank/second damage dealer (stark's, WotA, Abyssal, sunfire, maybe FH).
Maybe it depends on your definition of support or something but I thought what we were talking about here were pretty dedicated support champs, not a Nasus or Shen who picks up Aegis, a Vladimir who eventually turns his revolver into WotA (would Vladimir even do that? If not him, no one would), or any mage who decides to grab an abyssal scepter.
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what if the april fools joke was that urf is the new champion that's getting released? he's been in all the screenshots/artwork that i've looked at for the blind monk.
that'd be kinda neat imo
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United States37500 Posts
On March 29 2011 06:59 WirelessWaffle wrote:
what if the april fools joke was that urf is the new champion that's getting released? he's been in all the screenshots/artwork that i've looked at for the blind monk.
that'd be kinda neat imo
Urf? Were you not here for last year's April's Fool joke?
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
On March 29 2011 06:20 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2011 05:34 Two_DoWn wrote:
Part of the problem of supports in this game. You try to make items that are cheap and effective so supports can use them and afford them, but they end up being overpowered when used by champs they arent designed for. Locket anyone? They do this just fine with aura items. You don't want Aegis or Soul Shroud on non-support champs, and they're great items for the support. The problem with Locket IMO was that so little of the value was in the aura component. You definitely don't want 2 Aegises or 2 Soul Shrouds, but with Locket, the non-Aura effects were so good that so long as you were playing champs that could make use of the proc, it didn't matter at all that you were getting overlapping aura effects. Show nested quote +On March 29 2011 06:19 BluzMan wrote:
The best support item in DotA/HoN is most certainly the sheepstick, maybe (only maybe) you could design a semi-expensive item with little useful stats that has a reasonable disable (root or silence) as it's active ability. Randuin's and Gunblade's disables only come as side bonuses to great stats, so they don't count.
Sheepstick is not a "support" item. Supports don't get to sit around and AFK-farm a Mystic Staff.
Let me rephrase it, sheepstick is the best item a support would get if he somehow got spare gold. It's not that they get it every game, but it's the dream item for DSham and other pure supports and roamers like Pyromancer/Witch Slayer. But ye, not realistic for guys who die often like Glacius.
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Has anyone ever got a skin refunded by emailing Riot? I have 2 skins that I have no idea why I own.
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On March 29 2011 07:00 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2011 06:59 WirelessWaffle wrote:
what if the april fools joke was that urf is the new champion that's getting released? he's been in all the screenshots/artwork that i've looked at for the blind monk.
that'd be kinda neat imo Urf? Were you not here for last year's April's Fool joke?
He could be undead! Karthus and Sion would be proud. Or ressed. Anyway that would mean he would have to disappear from Harrowing map:<
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EPT
