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Seiuchi
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States931 Posts
March 05 2011 10:51 GMT
#8621
You basically have it right in that she has abilities that do raw damage/healing/shielding without CC, with base values that aren't impressive and AP values not worth giving farm for.

She can't support with no farm as well as Janna/Zilean/Taric, and with a bunch of farm she doesn't have the SONA INSTANT WIN mode, so why bother?
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-05 11:19:25
March 05 2011 11:06 GMT
#8622
On March 05 2011 19:40 Seiuchi wrote:
I feel like they don't understand the dynamics of farming appropriately and gold distribution. Guinsoo was talking on his twitter about how they could increase experience gain for 2v1 lanes to help make it a more attractive option compared to jungling, when the reason you go 1 top and 1 in jungle is to increase gold given to the team, not because you level slower.

The constant hits to jungling also support this idea.

If jungling weren't viable the optimal setup wouldn't suddenly become 2-1-2 like they suggest, it would probably be something like 1-1-1 with 2 roamers that help where they're needed (hell even now, with more roaming these days, it's effectively 1-1-1 with 1 jungler and 1 roamer). Jungling happens because the benefits of having one roamer take some time out to clear camps and control buffs happens to outweigh those of having them constantly ganking.

I feel like as a design goal, Riot sort of wanted an even gold-split to be optimal distribution among 5 players (hence why they gave champs like Alistar/Janna such good AP scaling). It's just that's not how things work out. Having an IEdge on 1 champion is going to be better than having a split of Pickaxes and Blasting Wands on everyone. It's a distribution of labor issue--having your carry only worry about keeping himself alive and dealing damage and having your support only worry about keeping people alive is easier than having 5 people all worrying about everyone else in the game all at once. And if your support doesn't need to worry about damage, why does he need that Blasting Wand?
Moderator
Niton
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States2395 Posts
March 05 2011 11:15 GMT
#8623
On March 05 2011 19:51 Seiuchi wrote:
She can't support with no farm as well as Janna/Zilean/TaricSoraka, and with a bunch of farm she doesn't have the SONA INSTANT WIN mode, so why bother?


Fixed, Soraka is as good as Janna/Zil at 0 farm, Taric really needs at least some gold to not become irrelevant the way Janna/Zil/Soraka avoid.
tree.hugger: Coming off of [(T)fantasy v. (T)Really] into [(T)Barracks v. (T)MVP] is like coming out of Manhattan into New Jersey. You just have to speed up and ignore it.
Kaniol
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Poland5551 Posts
March 05 2011 11:48 GMT
#8624
This video is awesome counterjungling vid as well IMO:
http://www.own3d.tv/video/76739/Reginald_s_Alistar_countering_Shaco_Jungle
SHr3DD3r
Profile Joined March 2009
Pakistan2137 Posts
March 05 2011 12:58 GMT
#8625
He was tooo mean man. Toooo mean.
Hit them hard! Hit them low! - Forever a Bisu Fan!~!
barbsq
Profile Joined November 2009
United States5348 Posts
March 05 2011 13:57 GMT
#8626
streaming real smurfs
http://www.own3d.tv/live/7854

come join the bear train
Look at this guy, constantly diluting himself! (╮°-°)╮┳━┳ ( ╯°□°)╯ ┻━┻
Tooplark
Profile Joined October 2008
United States3977 Posts
March 05 2011 17:53 GMT
#8627
A brief summary of Karma's abilities:
Q: Weak AoE nuke with average range.
Mantra-Q: Weak AoE heal with average range.
W: Weak haste for a teammate that lasts a decent amount of time provided you can stay nearish.
Awkward AoE nuke/slow.
Mantra-W: Good haste for a teammate that lasts a decent amount of time etc etc.
E: Mediocre shield.
Mantra-E: Mediocre AoE nuke.
R: Adds mediocre side effects to your unimpressive skills.
Passive: Gives you a large amount of HP if you're low on health.

How well does she scale?
Q: .6/AP, AoE medium cone.
m-Q: +.02% of allied missing health/AP - in other words, with 1000 AP, you'd heal a grand total of 135 + 25% of their missing health.
W: .7/AP to people that pass through the line.
m-W: no additional AP scaling
E: .8/AP
m-E: Also .8/AP

How's her base damage?
Level 4 Incinerate does as much damage as level 6 Q, and they scale equally.
Two Mantra'd level 4 Qs are going to heal more than Soraka's ult at level 1 - but instead of globally, in a small AoE, and instead of all at once, with a 6 second cooldown. The AP scaling catches up when .02% missing health = 1.3, or when your allies are missing 6,500 health. Obviously the significantly shorter cooldowns are a factor here.
But picking Karma instead of Soraka means you trade a 3 second silence for a a tolerable speedboost, a global heal with great scaling for an AoE cone with poor scaling, and a single target heal that also gives an armor boost for a single target shield that can do AoE damage. Oh, and less lane dominance.
PIcking Karma instead of Zilean means you trade a long range AoE nuke for a short range AoE nuke that can also heal. Instead of an incredible single target speed boost you get a weak speed boost to one target and also yourself. (Level 6 mantra'd W is a 40% speedboost. Zilean's is 55% at all levels. W duration is 5 seconds, while Timewarp is 2.5 / 3.25 / 4 / 4.75 / 5.5. In other words, level 5 timewarp slows/hastes for more, and longer, without requiring Zilean to risk himself nearly as much.) And nothing Karma has even compares to Zilean ultimate.
Janna is better because her AoE nuke has a small disable attached. Her shield has a damage boost on the target. Her slow is stronger at all levels than mantra'd W and the passive movespeed bonus - that is permanent and doesn't require her to be near them! - is only slightly worse. And Janna has a real ultimate.
Taric is better because he has an actual disable, a better heal, a nuke that increases teammate damage, and a fantastic ult for pushing. And more natural survivability.
Sona is better because she can actually win lanes, while bringing pretty much everything Karma does to teamfights. Oh, and an AoE disable ultimate.
Lux is better because she can actually do damage and she has a disable.
Anyone I missed?
WHAT POW'R ART THOU WHO FROM BELOW HAST MADE ME RISE UNWILLINGLY AND SLOW
Tooplark
Profile Joined October 2008
United States3977 Posts
March 05 2011 18:05 GMT
#8628
The two biggest problems (besides being a support with poor base power and scaling) for Karma are the poor gains from leveling up her skills and the disorganized additional utility crammed into all her abilities. Karma doesn't need more mantras, or faster mantras - she needs better mantras. Make max mantras or mantra cd improve with level and nerf them at level 1 or something, but her ultimate basically turns her skills into normal skills. And she has to level her skills up to 6 to get the same benefit as everyone else at 5. (Karma shield: 80/120/160/200/240/280 vs. Soraka heal 60 / 120 / 180 / 240 / 300, Karma nuke 70 / 110 / 150 / 190 / 230 / 270 vs Zilean 100 / 155 / 210 / 270 / 330 or Taric 100 / 150 / 200 / 250 / 300 or even Soraka (lol) 60 / 90 / 120 / 150 / 180 but with half the cooldown.
WHAT POW'R ART THOU WHO FROM BELOW HAST MADE ME RISE UNWILLINGLY AND SLOW
Woony
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Germany6657 Posts
March 05 2011 18:52 GMT
#8629
Asked in the Ez thread, but gonna ask here again, what about Wriggles on Ez? I've seen quite some people use it. Im also wondering on Bloodthirster vs. Blackcleaver in terms of damage items (both beside Triforce obviously)
Brees
Profile Joined January 2010
Marshall Islands3404 Posts
March 05 2011 18:55 GMT
#8630
just to avoid confusion zilean is one of the most farm dependent supports...with no farm hes pretty bad which is why you need to rape your lane which is easy to do
Brees on in
Two_DoWn
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States13684 Posts
March 05 2011 18:57 GMT
#8631
I see no point in wriggles on ez. Delays sheen, which is a horrible idea, or if you want it after, why not just get a bt?
"What is the air speed velocity of an unladen courier?" "Dire or Radiant?"
Phrost
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States4008 Posts
March 05 2011 19:54 GMT
#8632
So while i was pissing I just had this revelation on how to make Karma not suck.

Keep all un-mantra'd stats on the nuke and the shield.

Change the nuke's mantra to deal 20% more damage + 2/4/6/8/10% of the target's current health in damage.

Change the shield's mantra to heal all allies in an area for the amount of the shield.

Change the bond to increase/decrease the speed of the target by 65% for 2 seconds if the bond is broken early.

Instantly Karma's abilities are more focused and easier to use and don't have some shitty anti-patterns preventing her from spending mantra effectively.
iamphrost.tumblr.com // http://howtobebettermagicplayer.tumblr.com // twitter @phrost_
HazMat
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States17077 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-05 20:01:18
March 05 2011 20:00 GMT
#8633
nvm
www.youtube.com/user/ShakeDrizzle | League and SSBM content creator | Armada's Youtube Editor
barbsq
Profile Joined November 2009
United States5348 Posts
March 05 2011 20:04 GMT
#8634
streaming some normals with friends, come join the fun
http://www.own3d.tv/live/7854

le bear train is open for business
Look at this guy, constantly diluting himself! (╮°-°)╮┳━┳ ( ╯°□°)╯ ┻━┻
Shikyo
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Finland33997 Posts
March 05 2011 20:56 GMT
#8635
Just lost an hour-long game with Singed, 19-4-10 with over 600 minion kills.

Good teammates are good. Don't blame others for losing, just need to carry harder. Right...
League of Legends EU West, Platinum III | Yousei Teikoku is the best thing that has ever happened to music.
HazMat
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States17077 Posts
March 05 2011 20:56 GMT
#8636
On March 06 2011 05:56 Shikyo wrote:
Just lost an hour-long game with Singed, 19-4-10 with over 600 minion kills.

Good teammates are good. Don't blame others for losing, just need to carry harder. Right...

Yep.
www.youtube.com/user/ShakeDrizzle | League and SSBM content creator | Armada's Youtube Editor
ofcourse
Profile Joined May 2010
Poland67 Posts
March 05 2011 21:01 GMT
#8637
how do u play vs irelia ? this bitch is just so freaking op ... i lose every 1/1 lane vs her. dont start talking about teamfights. ulti -> PENTAKILL
Shikyo
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Finland33997 Posts
March 05 2011 21:02 GMT
#8638
Just seems really difficult when you end up being 4v5 in every lategame teamfight because your teemo doesn't get any mres vs a 1400 ap Veigar. They also had a TF backdooring us and when I told the Teemo(our only dps) to backdoor he ran up the midlane to get caught and then we lost.
League of Legends EU West, Platinum III | Yousei Teikoku is the best thing that has ever happened to music.
Juicyfruit
Profile Joined May 2008
Canada5484 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-05 21:31:38
March 05 2011 21:13 GMT
#8639
What's wrong with Karma? In terms of sheer babysitting a single target through burst fire, she's pretty beastly. Supports generally have a shield or a heal. Karma has both. Soraka has 2 heals, but she has to burn her ult to spike-heal a single target, so sometimes she wastes it. Karma doesn't kite for her team as well as Janna, but if you're not actually trying to kite, then Karma's better for keeping someone alive.

Being able to output a fairly sizeable amount of AoE damage without any farm only helps.

If you compare karma to soraka, Soraka is way squishier and is a pretty big liability, position-wise in teamfights since you have to protect her or have to just abandon her. Karma just speed-boosts an ally and she gets breathing room since enemies that come after her will get slowed when they cross the chain (i think).
spinesheath
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Germany8679 Posts
March 05 2011 21:15 GMT
#8640
Why do you have 600 minion kills? At some point you are fully farmed and should spend your time getting your allies farmed.
If you have a good reason to disagree with the above, please tell me. Thank you.
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