EPTLoco was definitely ruder than he needs to be though.
General Discussion/Off-topic - Page 289
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Ecael
United States6703 Posts
Loco was definitely ruder than he needs to be though. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On February 03 2011 04:23 gtrsrs wrote: you're retarded if you don't think teleport clairvoyance or cleanse aren't good summoners on shen, especially since you advocate split pushing lolol To be fair, Loco's guide makes a big point on Shen taking all the duo lane's farm. Take all duo lane's farm = you're not babysitting, meaning the most sensible lane partners with you are better babysitters like Janna and Taric who are also better CV carriers. On February 03 2011 04:23 gtrsrs wrote: you're also p dumb if you would advocate 9/0/21 over 0/9/21. nice 15% mpen on a champ with 1 offensive spell Ki Strike/Sunfires. I don't think the difference between 0/9/21 and 9/0/21 is big enough to say one is drastically better than the other, especially seeing as if you're not getting SoS, defense is pretty lackluster too. On February 03 2011 04:23 gtrsrs wrote: yeah, shen never needs magic defense I don't see holding plain negatrons being worse than building SVisage/BVeil, especially since both provide stats that are partially wasted on Shen. | ||
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gtrsrs
United States9109 Posts
the part about banshee/sv/qss can also be read as even against ap champs armor is an optimal choice i personally don't need cleanse on shen hence why i advocate ghost/teleport but if you get stunned running in to initiate you can cleanse and get the taunt off still. boom cleanse viable | ||
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Phrost
United States4008 Posts
I don't follow either of their guides but i think they are fairly spot on. | ||
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Ecael
United States6703 Posts
As for Banshee/SV/QSS, again, what makes them better from holding just plain negatrons. Loco's issue is about the utility on those 3 items being highly situational at best on Shen. If you are initiating with Shen and purposely picking Cleanse for it there might be a point, or you can take someone else with better initiation instead. Meh, Phrost is right though, both definitely have merit. I personally lean more toward the style Loco describes. | ||
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
On February 03 2011 04:34 gtrsrs wrote: 15% mpen on a 40 damage dot? you're going to bring the damage from like 34 to 36 rofl shen isn't about doing damage otherwise i would say get triforce and black cleaver shen does pretty respectable damage natively just via his abilities... 6 armor/mr vs 15% magic pen seems like a legit choice to me, ive gone both ways in the past | ||
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LoCicero
1100 Posts
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
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Ecael
United States6703 Posts
On February 03 2011 04:47 LoCicero wrote: Recently everyone has been going full retard when they get on my team =(. I think the problem is that you are not carrying with jungle Ryze. | ||
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gtrsrs
United States9109 Posts
On February 03 2011 04:40 Ecael wrote: Your point was that there is only one magic damage, we just provided you two more. You have yet to make a convincing argument for dodge and early armor/mr though. Let's also ignore how Shen's q+ki is a massive amount of burst early on and particularly in duo lanes. As for Banshee/SV/QSS, again, what makes them better from holding just plain negatrons. Loco's issue is about the utility on those 3 items being highly situational at best on Shen. If you are initiating with Shen and purposely picking Cleanse for it there might be a point, or you can take someone else with better initiation instead. Meh, Phrost is right though, both definitely have merit. I personally lean more toward the style Loco describes. didn't realize that TLers would be daft enough to not realize the benefits of armor/MR in lane brief overview: armor reduces the amount of physical damage taken from all physical sources. this means that enemy champs and minions that attack you will do less damage if you have more armor. in the laning stage, enemy champs will often opt to attack you instead of the creeps, in order to whittle down your health in order to kill you. armor mitigates their ability to do so. dodge also allows attacks to miss you, completely negating their damage in the same way, MR reduces the amount of magic damage that you will take from abilities. some champions have high damage abilities that can "burst" you down to low health. building MR will prevent enemy champs from killing you easily with spells as for the difference between 9 offensive (15% magic penetration) and 9 defensive (6 armor and 6 MR) if your opponent comes to lane running no MR runes/items/masteries, he'll have 30 base MR, you've got 9 Mpen from runes. 15% of 21 is 2 MR reduction. i would say it's pretty clear that 6 armor and 6 MR is better than reducing the opponent's MR by 2. plain negatron won't give you 12% cdr, 20% increased healing, spell shield, or health. i made clear in my guide that the money from banshee's that's spent on the mana is wasted. spell shield is still awesome i explicitly say in my guide shen's not a great initiator you asked when cleanse could be viable, i gave you a time the "playstyle" described by loco's guide is literally lifted from mine, the only differences are mine is well written, he's wrong about masteries, and he has different yellows and summoner spells lol /rant | ||
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0123456789
United States3216 Posts
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Ecael
United States6703 Posts
No shit that at lvl 1 6MR/Armor beats 15%mpen, because Shen's burst all comes at level 1 right? Maybe I should've chose my words better, early =/= lvl1, or did you feel the need to ignore that too? The purpose of defensive masteries is to give you as much leverage over the early levels of laning as possible, but those are not the ones where Shen really shines anyway. However, it isn't as if Shen is weak during those levels either. Why set masteries as to prop those levels up? Honestly, your argument here would make much more sense to me if you were arguing about 21def or something. 9points in def without SoS with no other items for dodge on the other hand simply doesn't give you the kind of benefits that 15% mpen will consistently. And to be honest, if we are just looking at 6 armor+6MR vs reducing opponent MR by 2, it isn't as clearcut as you make it appear to be. Sure, opponents can potentially have the range to just abuse a Shen, but it is just as likely for your constant Q to be a major source of annoyance to the enemy. The nature of Ki strike being so bursty also works in favor of Shen, since it isn't as if he will just stand there to trade your harass. Yes, the other player is going to harass you, but why do you need to just be there and take that harass? If you see such a tough lane forming in ranked, why not go 21def instead? That is what I feel like you weren't addressing, and giving a lecture on how mitigation works doesn't exactly help your case there imo. Plain negatron is a lot cheaper, are all those effects worth the gold invested? I wouldn't say so either way. There will definitely be situations where I'd want the spell shield from banshee's, or some additional cdr, but is that generally important enough to be worth the additional gold? Shen isn't exactly the best of farmers even when given a solo lane later on in game. At any case, my original point here is that Loco thinks that the cost efficiency is more important, and we can only agree to disagree on this point. Wait so...Shen is not a great initiator. Situation involving Cleanse being useful has Shen initiating. Cleanse is viable on Shen. I think I fail to see how you came to this conclusion. I don't really know how to address that last paragraph. Though I found that what you consider to be well written was really mostly fluff and that Loco's guide, in spite of the bad English and not being the most detailed of guides was something that I can agree much more on. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On February 03 2011 04:28 Phunkapotamus wrote: Karma jungles pretty well. Pretty easy and forgiving. Did it last night with mpen reds and other tanky runes. Stonewall thinks so too: Stonewall's build looked very insecure early. I imagine that's not a problem for most as the vast majority of players never experience significant counter-jungling, but if all Karma builds are that weak early I know what I plan on doing if ever I see one. She also appears to be very dependent on blue buff. | ||
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Caller
Poland8075 Posts
![[image loading]](http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/2912/chineseo.jpg) + 28 Jungle creeps for a total of 253 minion kills dat rice | ||
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Nehsb
United States380 Posts
On February 03 2011 05:48 Caller wrote: + 28 Jungle creeps for a total of 253 minion kills dat rice Lol, random sona and roaming too gud. randomly attack irelia at golem => have poppy chase me => FB on poppy. How are you supposed to actually roam btw? | ||
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Phunkapotamus
United States496 Posts
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
How to carry? And actually nobody was flaming or anything. They just plain didn't listen to me. | ||
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gtrsrs
United States9109 Posts
On February 03 2011 05:44 Ecael wrote: Guitar, I didn't realize that you need to be as condescending as possible and twist people's statements just so that you can be as snobby as you could about this whole affair. I guess that makes two fools here eh? yeah, you and loco doco ICE BURN but seriously just go read my guide all your questions are addressed within also lol p hard at shen not being a good farmer plz play champ before you comment in thread, unless you are tapioca ball | ||
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Ecael
United States6703 Posts
On February 03 2011 06:16 gtrsrs wrote: yeah, you and loco doco ICE BURN but seriously just go read my guide all your questions are addressed within also lol p hard at shen not being a good farmer plz play champ before you comment in thread, unless you are tapioca ball So burned indeed. I will just take this to PMs as to stop cluttering up space in this thread. | ||
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Chrispy
Canada5878 Posts
IN ALL SERIOUSNESS, only listen to loco if he's talking about ranged carries. | ||
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