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r33k
Italy3402 Posts
The only time I feel like it's worth getting is when your team is getting absolutely raped by level 8-9 of your solos. It's simply going to be a replacement to GA on GA-first tanks when you die or recall with way less money than you should have, such as after a failed dragon teamfight. And it's SO FUCKING EXPENSIVE for the stats it gives... | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23470 Posts
Maybe in a setup where its like 50:50 physical/magic its worth it. It's really hard to notice a passive buff, but it might be better than you think. | ||
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crate
United States2474 Posts
That's worth roughly 700 + 900 + 1150 + 1000 = 3750 gold (based on ruby crystal, cloth armor, null-magic mantle, and long sword costs). Aegis actually costs 1925 gold, and to boot the best carriers for it don't scale particularly well with items (champs like Taric or Janna perhaps) so their 1925 gold isn't very helpful anyway. The individual pieces are also fine on their own, particularly for Taric since he'll be taking damage anyway because he's melee. You could argue that spreading the benefit out means it's worth less, but even if you consider it half as valuable you're still at break-even effectiveness when you consider its effect on only three champs. It also affects your minions (unless that's changed, but I don't think it has) so it makes your team push more effectively too. | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On December 19 2010 06:01 r33k wrote: Anyone else sharing my hate for Aegis? Just wondering, tbh I find it a terrible waste of money to get on any tank, since tanks who can farm can just buy more solid items and tanks who can't farm need HoGs. The only time I feel like it's worth getting is when your team is getting absolutely raped by level 8-9 of your solos. It's simply going to be a replacement to GA on GA-first tanks when you die or recall with way less money than you should have, such as after a failed dragon teamfight. And it's SO FUCKING EXPENSIVE for the stats it gives... Errrm, did you by any chance overlook the AURA part? Aegis is an item that actually gives some decent stats to you and at the same time is worth about 500-1000 gold for everyone in your team. If your champion doesn't rely on some specific item to become effective, you can get Aegis and basically throw 1k gold towards your carry etc. This actually is great throughout the game, although the impact feels larger earlygame as those 1k gold will be like 20% of the total gold your carry farmed so far. Anyone else sharing my hate for GA on tanks? Just wondering, tbh I find it a terrible waste of money to get on any tank, since it doesn't matter if a tank comes back with 750 HP just to find himself in a 1v3. The only time I feel like it's worth getting is when everyone on your team who is likely to get killed before you already has a GA. | ||
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r33k
Italy3402 Posts
And aegis is generally taken when your carries get owned and lose their solo lane, thus making them even more the primary target for the enemy team and even more of a free kill. Simply put, you taking aegis is not going to save someone else's life. And the stats themselves are not bad per say, but there are more dedicated items that do the job better. You usually get mr AND armor when you are facing a hybrid carry in the mid-lategame, when they have hybrid items that make them a hybrid threat. At that time aegis won't be giving you enough stats because it's an early game item, and earlygame your hybrid opponents won't have the items that are countered by aegis. Plus, health is the worst stat for a tank, since you get it for no real reason and you are forcing yourself to buy 1 more negatron lategame should any of your opponents go for a bloodrazor. As long as you don't get instagibbed, in which case you could have prevented that by buying more armor/mr, a 475g red gem is worth less than a 35g healthpot, since a tank will always live from the moment of engaging and he pops a health pot until the moment when the pot effect fades and stops healing him. | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On December 19 2010 06:41 r33k wrote: And the stats themselves are not bad per say, but there are more dedicated items that do the job better. And which item is better at boosting the survivability of your allies, if I may ask? | ||
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r33k
Italy3402 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On December 19 2010 06:12 Slayer91 wrote: I find Aegis is just like, too all around. It gives a little armour, little resist, little passive, its not focused enough that its just good but its kinda hard to notice. Maybe in a setup where its like 50:50 physical/magic its worth it. It's really hard to notice a passive buff, but it might be better than you think. Don't most *good* team comps have diversified damage? I mean, sure, you're going to run into comps that are overly skewed toward physical or magical damage, but it's not that hard to skip Aegis in those cases, and I find that to be the exception rather than the norm. Last I checked, the 5 mage team wasn't something that was particularly scary. On December 19 2010 06:41 r33k wrote: And aegis is generally taken when your carries get owned and lose their solo lane, thus making them even more the primary target for the enemy team and even more of a free kill. Simply put, you taking aegis is not going to save someone else's life. And the stats themselves are not bad per say, but there are more dedicated items that do the job better. TBH, I think the biggest use of the Aegis passive is its benefit toward pushing, as it affects minions, which means that it actually provides a noticeable effect with regard to your team pushing lanes--which is why Shen and Taric are probably the two strongest Aegis carriers--Shen is going to spend a lot of time split-pushing, and the Aegis buff scales into Taric's ability to push with his ultimate. On December 19 2010 06:41 r33k wrote: You usually get mr AND armor when you are facing a hybrid carry in the mid-lategame, when they have hybrid items that make them a hybrid threat. At that time aegis won't be giving you enough stats because it's an early game item, and earlygame your hybrid opponents won't have the items that are countered by aegis. Why does MR + Armor only become relevant in the case of a hybrid threat? Doesn't mixed type damage output from SEPARATE champions also warrant diversified survivability? How about midgame where both AP casters and AD champs like Pantheon or Xin Zhao are at their prime, and you need to be able to mitigate damage output from both? Against most reasonable team compositions, you're going to need a balance between armor and MR, because they will have mixed AP and AD threats, even though they're not on the same champion. With the exception of a few early game AD threats (Xin Zhao, Pantheon, and formerly Garen) early/midgame damage is probably skewed slightly more toward magical than physical (since AP casters hit their prime earlier, and most non-AP carry/AD carry champs--supports, tanks, etc.--primarily provide magic damage), but Aegis' skew towards MR reflects that. On December 19 2010 06:41 r33k wrote: Plus, health is the worst stat for a tank, since you get it for no real reason and you are forcing yourself to buy 1 more negatron lategame should any of your opponents go for a bloodrazor. As long as you don't get instagibbed, in which case you could have prevented that by buying more armor/mr, a 475g red gem is worth less than a 35g healthpot, since a tank will always live from the moment of engaging and he pops a health pot until the moment when the pot effect fades and stops healing him. Health is not the "worst stat" for a tank--at any given point in time, whether HP or individual mitigation is more cost-effective is dictated by how much of each you have already. HP and armor/MR stack multiplicatively toward EHP, meaning that skewing too much toward one or the other is counterproductive. | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On December 19 2010 06:46 r33k wrote: Doran's blades or shields on carries, doran's rings on others. A tank's focus is to let carries live with his play, not with his items. Carries don't pick up Aegis. They are playing selfishly and their allies are meant to help them do that even more. Therefore most aura items usually are bad on carries. They are an investment for your team which a carry is not supposed to make. Just because you pick up an Aegis (especially if it's instead of such a selfish item as GA), it doesn't mean that you can't protect your carry with your play any less. Randuins and Frozen Heart are items that also provide protection for your carries via the active/CDR/aura. GA, Thornmail, FoN, SFC etc. don't do much in this regard. If you as a tank can afford an investment for your team without hurting your performance then Aegis definitely is a good choice. | ||
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r33k
Italy3402 Posts
Shen is almost always better off with a giant's belt. His armor and mr are fine earlygame and health gives him damage, which since he is a great ganker (if jungling) or is going to be hit by autoattacks/will have free ki strikes (on his lv6 ult) makes aegis a viable item mostly because of its price: if forced to b early shen will buy a red gem. If for some reason he either couldn't complete a HoG, was facing hard magic pressure and was forced into buying mr or had a lucky earlygame giving him 1750+g on his first b he can buy components or even a full aegis. Health on a tank is a collateral stat, you get it as along other stats on useful items. See randuin's, BV and sunfire fits in that concept aswell. When casters are what's hurting you the most you are always better off getting 2 negatrons and then turning them into BV/FoN or BV/abyssal. Health is not going to do anything for you. In the midgame most of the time you have your opening tank item (which in 90% of games is going to be HoG, for shen it's giant's belt, in rare cases double dshield) and you will start to itemize for one stat. You won't itemize for both because your main threat is the opponent's mid, not their top. The reasoning for this is that the mid lane is more likely to suffer ganks and WAY more likely to be in teamfights due to the positioning of dragon. THIS WHOLE REASONING APPLIES TO THE MIDGAME, the only phase of the game when aegis matters since later on its stats become laughable, when you have dragon 4v4 fights where the most farmed character is going to be the opponents' mid. Top farming all day is not a concern of the tank until they join the roamfest later on, not only because you won't be fighting the guy who is solo top in early teamfights, but also because top tends to b as late as possible, and your opening item is going to be fine for taking on a lv11 kennen with no items. @spinesheath: the fact that for some reason you put the concept of "carry" and "buying aegis" together makes me question the existence of intelligence on earth. The fact that you consider frozen heart/glacial shroud an item a tank should aim for in the earlygame didn't make me change my mind either. | ||
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Kaniol
Poland5551 Posts
On December 19 2010 06:41 r33k wrote: The thing is that while the sum of all its bonuses given to a full team may be nice, but if you look at it from a carry's PoV you're going to be "oh great, I have aegis buff! Oh wow, it gives me less armor than a cloth armor, half the MR of a 400g mr item and the AD of a doran's blade without the useful stats!" (...) Carry wants to ideally build 100% damage oriented items so even if aegis gave something silly like 10 armor and 10 mres it still would increase armor/mres of a carry while not decreasing carry's damage output. If a carry doesn't appreciate FREE survivability then it's just sad | ||
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Chrispy
Canada5878 Posts
Laoching gets it so I do too. | ||
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r33k
Italy3402 Posts
If in a dragon fight without counting the money from dragon itself it's whoever got the most kills/assists that sprints ahead, even if they die. (again, not counting killing spree ending money) A lot of factors come in the way for the exact values of the aura, due to splitting, target-switching, kiting and buffs/dragon. It isn't really possible to calculate anything here. Oh and aegis on rammus bot is fine in my eyes. Rammus can call a jungle fight and stall by tanking dragon with his team around him while baiting the opponents, so he will give his allies some good benefits. It's just that HoG on a taunt character is really, really, really good. | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On December 19 2010 08:04 r33k wrote: @spinesheath: the fact that for some reason you put the concept of "carry" and "buying aegis" together makes me question the existence of intelligence on earth. The fact that you consider frozen heart/glacial shroud an item a tank should aim for in the earlygame didn't make me change my mind either. On December 19 2010 06:46 spinesheath wrote: And which item is better at boosting the survivability of your allies, if I may ask? On December 19 2010 06:46 r33k wrote: Doran's blades or shields on carries, doran's rings on others. A tank's focus is to let carries live with his play, not with his items. Intelligence? Why do you mention that carries get DBlades when I ask how to provide survivability for your allies? Clearly those DBlades must be doing that instead of an Aegis. Look, I even put "of your allies" in italics. That wasn't an accident. Where did I say anything about Frozen Heart that would suggest it for earlygame? May I ask you to actually read other people's posts? Did you ever hear about Teleport on top laners? So Aegis becomes laughable lategame? Astonishingly, Aegis becomes stronger as the game moves more towards teamfighting. Why? Because more people will get the aura. Oh yeah, right, the stats are low. So you don't care if you have 15 MRes less? Then you obviously don't care about another 10 less? And down another 5? Another 5 Even? Every little bit matters as long as it's efficient. Aegis is efficient. Besides, a typical ranged DPS with IE/LW/Recurve or something like that doesn't want to get any MRes items for the first 30 minutes of the game. So Aegis boosts him from 30 to 45, as the ranged DPSs don't get scaling MRes. 50% more, for free? Sign me up. EDIT: Telepot. lol. | ||
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Vlanitak
Norway3045 Posts
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Chrispy
Canada5878 Posts
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myopia
United States2928 Posts
On December 19 2010 08:19 Chrispy wrote: My logic regarding Aegis on Shen: Laoching gets it so I do too. This is exactly what I was gonna post hahah | ||
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TieN.nS)
United States2131 Posts
http://clgaming.net/index.php?page=livestream | ||
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r33k
Italy3402 Posts
On December 19 2010 09:46 Chrispy wrote: MMKH, who is my favouritest LoL player, gets a bunch of heart of golds and Aegis and just does his thing. On shen or gragas? | ||
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HazMat
United States17077 Posts
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