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United States4883 Posts
Intro
A few days ago, there was a Reddit thread about how everyone was playing Artanis wrong and choosing the wrong talents, that bruiser Artanis was actually really good and that tank Artanis was bad. Naturally, I assumed this was just someone seeking attention on Reddit with audacious claims.
But I decided to try it out anyway since I like to troll Artanis occasionally, and he's actually in a pretty good spot right now power-wise since the health buffs. What I found actually surprised me a lot.
The Bruiser Build vs Tank Build
So, like most people that have been playing him since release, I've been doing the standard tank build with dash talents at 4/7 and bubble talents at 13/16 (since Triple Strike/Zealot Charge were changed).
http://www.heroesfire.com/hots/talent-calculator/artanis#hd2n
Instead, though, I decided to go full offense at 4/7 to see what I could get out of that. Surprisingly, Chrono Surge + Follow Through provided a stunning amount of burst damage and made soloing people even easier.
I also did some tinkering with the 13 talent because I don't think the shield talent is always necessary, especially when there's not a ton of spell damage on the other team. Through about 10-15 games of testing, I found that Burning Rage is actually pretty decent. Graviton Vortex is hilarious, but usually not the sort of thing you need :p.
I kept the shield talent at 16 because I think it's OP (and the other talents aren't really that great imo—I did try out a few different combinations, though. See below.) Force of Will at 20 since you skip out on the 4/7 talents, but you can also go for Nexus Blades or the 20 upgrades depending on the situation.
http://www.heroesfire.com/hots/talent-calculator/artanis#l5ID
What I found is that this build actually felt way stronger. Artanis does a lot of damage for a tank, but he honestly doesn't do enough with the tank build in correlation with his tankiness. You can't build for Sonya-level of damage because Artanis simply isn't as tanky as Sonya.
On the other hand, the offensive build uses Greymane (RIP) logic: "They can't kill you if you kill them first". The burst that he gets from his 4/7 talents alongside Burning Rage allow him to really burn HP pools down very quickly and make him a serious threat. The shield talents at 16/20 give him just enough sustain to avoid dying instantly.
I'm not arguing that this is always a superior build or that the tank build is terrible. Everything has its situation. But overall, I've had a lot more success with this, and I feel a lot more powerful using it.
Experiments
I've also played around a bit with a poke build which is pretty similar to the original Artanis build. Like the bruiser build, I grab the offensive talents at 4/7, but then I go a step further by Triple Strike + Zealot Charge at 16. This gives Artanis some pretty fantastic burst, but makes him substantially weaker at sustaining. This was a bit of an experimental build, but it worked decently. I can see it being a situational pick if you have another tank on your team to soak up most of the damage and strong poke from the rest of your team.
http://www.heroesfire.com/hots/talent-calculator/artanis#hH6F
I have played around a bit with Titan Killer and Psionic Wound at 16, but generally I haven't found them to be that useful. Warp Sickness at 7 is actually awesome, but it also contends with a lot of super important power picks, so it's rarely more useful than some of the others.
Amateur Opponent is straight up OP. I have no idea why Reactive Parry has been the standard when Amateur Opponent exists. It allows him to shred through towers, forts, and objectives if he's left alone for even a few moments. In the late game, this thing crits for like 1200 damage on a 4 second cooldown. Even on a map like Cursed Hollow or Dragon Shire where objective damage isn't super valued, I still get it most of the time. It makes laning easier, it makes splitting easier, and it synergizes well with pretty much any sort of team siege.
Suppression Pulse is obviously good if the other team has a lot of auto-attackers. I tend to default to Purifier Beam, but either works.
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That's a very interesting article on a hero I wish I was able to play in HL. I would have thought Amateur Opponent is the worst level 1 talent so your way of explaining its value is very interesting.
I'll try this bruiser build in QM, seems really fun.
Any advice on when Artanis should be drafted in HL ?
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I've always really loved playing Artanis and he does more damage than people give him credit for.
I wasn't actually aware people even considered playing him as a Tank, I had always more or less tried to play him as a bruiser, he always seemed just a lil bit too squishy/immobile to be a proper tank.
I experimented with the non-Dash talent build and when you land the switch you really feel the power.
Too bad I suck at landing skillshots so I mostly avoid Chrono Surge and it's ilk.
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Artanis has always been viable, tank or bruiser build, he's just not what most people think he is.
Artanis should never be drafted as a solo tank, he is a melee dps/bruiser like sonya, illidan, kerrigan, xul and thrall. Right now he has his place in the most popular comp aka 2 range dps, 1 support, 1 tank, 1 tank or bruiser (artanis!).
He can also work with a 1,5 support setup (support+tyrande or tass) because like illidan and sonya he's very good when fights last long and is an incredible dueler. In that case you would ideally need a pretty high dps range champ as you will only get one.
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Few weeks ago until now, I have played Artanis a lot, most in QM and a little in HL. I never go for Tank build because it is very weak if you are countered by Lili or Johanna. I always go for dps build and it is very effective.
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United States4883 Posts
On August 26 2016 17:47 Leolio wrote:
That's a very interesting article on a hero I wish I was able to play in HL. I would have thought Amateur Opponent is the worst level 1 talent so your way of explaining its value is very interesting.
I'll try this bruiser build in QM, seems really fun.
Any advice on when Artanis should be drafted in HL ?
I thought that too for a long time. Then I started picking it O.O
Not really sure where he stands on the drafting, I mostly just play him in QM (remember, I usually play him as a troll hero :p). I would say, though, that he needs to be in a double/triple Warrior composition alongside a tank who can really soak up damage and provide peel like Muradin or Johanna. He honestly can't sustain for more than 2-3 shields anymore after they changed the way the shield procs, so you also need some decent burst on your team like Li-Ming/Falstad. Gotta be careful of enemy picking Medivh, blinds, or Illidan. In terms of drafting position, he probably works best as a second round pick (after second bans).
See what RouaF posted.
On August 26 2016 18:06 Zambrah wrote:
I've always really loved playing Artanis and he does more damage than people give him credit for.
I wasn't actually aware people even considered playing him as a Tank, I had always more or less tried to play him as a bruiser, he always seemed just a lil bit too squishy/immobile to be a proper tank.
I experimented with the non-Dash talent build and when you land the switch you really feel the power.
Too bad I suck at landing skillshots so I mostly avoid Chrono Surge and it's ilk.
I'll admit that I was biased by xDaunt's impression of him. Tbh, I think the tank build worked pretty nicely before they changed the way his shield procs, but now that you're constantly taking damage in between shields, you can't quite sustain as well as before. Before the talent change-ups, he could sit there and tank like 5 people np with the right talents.
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Bruiser type Artanis? Artanis is a bruiser already. But a weird one. Sc2john i respect your opinion but i think you are doing it wrong.
I should start with numbers first (No ultimates included):
Artanis (base) without talents deal 360 dps. (Only W spam)
Artanis with Nexus blades deal 420 dps (Only W spam)
Artanis with Nexus blades+Seasoned marksman deals 540 dps (Only W spam. No Marksman Bonus Speed)
Artanis with your talent build deals 510 dps (only W spam) For burst part it only deals approximately 2300 dmg in 4 seconds. (Burning rage messes up exact damage.) I don't think we can count it as a big burst.
For reference Raynor with W spam w/o seasoned marksman stacks deal 510 dps. Ofc, giant killer, executioner etc can increase this number quite a lot. Sonya with regular build (FO, WotB, MS, NoS, IP) deal 2540 dmg in 2 seconds for burst. These numbers are for reference.
"Tank" Artanis with 2 offensive talents at 1 and 20 can deal almost same damage with a AA assassin. Not the same but almost..
On August 26 2016 14:29 SC2John wrote:
You can't build for Sonya-level of damage because Artanis simply isn't as tanky as Sonya.
"Tank" Artanis is actually tankier then Sonya but under some situations.
1) If you stunlock Sonya before NoS and IP she is dead. Also after these abilites goes cooldown Sonya isn't tanky anymore. Artanis isn't that dependent on cooldowns.
2) Tank Artanis has approximately 7400 hp with shields (I don't believe shield decay at 16 is important at all. You are taking damage continously) Sonya has 5100.
3) Eventho Sonya life steal, Artanis gains shields as long as not kited. (I'll mention it below)
4) Phase Bulwark offers constant %50 spell damage reduction if you manage to hit your Q
Tbh Chrono Surge seems so underwhelming. Artanis has 1 APS. If you are in exactly melee range with your opponent and he stays for 4 seconds you manage to get 2 more hits. Yes. Thats all. And I don't think anyone stays in same position after Phase Prism. (Oh btw.. I hate Phase Prism. Probably THE slowest skill shot in the game  )
I should mention Amateur Opponent. It wrecks mercs. It wrecks bosses. It wrecks buildings. But that means you give up 120 dps. Almost %28 damage increase. I prefer Seasoned Marksman over AO except Battlefield and cursed hallow. Cursed hallow is so big and so hard to stack bonus damage while fighting around curses.
Reactive Parry is a bait. (Like Rancor) I have no idea why people still picking it. Also +1 second cd increase on triple strike is ridicilous
Artanis is a bruiser with zero gap closer. Your teammates have to prevent your opponent to kite you by slowing or stunning them. This is the main problem. You completely rely on your teammates picks. If your team can offer some disable for you can deal surprising amount of damage. He works great with Jo, ETC, Jaina, Tyrael etc..
Going offensive talents at 4-7-13-16 does not increase his dps output but decrease his tankiness a lot. But he has good base dps and twin blades for damage increase. I believe he is in a good spot in EU meta.
Eventho he isn't my highest winrate hero (Only %58 over 70 matches) he is my personal favourite
+ Show Spoiler +
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I'll have to test out Amateur Opponent, but so far I've found it really hard to ignore how well Seasoned Marksman, Follow Through and Triple Strike work together.
It's pretty easy for me to rack up 30-40 stacks of Seasoned Marksman by the time level 13 rolls around and that really adds to the burst he's able to dish out with Triple Strike on a hero.
Triple Strike, Follow Through, Titan Killer, Seasoned Marksman. Basically makes him a melee version of Tychus. Just shreds through tanks and other frontliners.
I can see why the Burning Rage and Amateur Opponent build would give him more general utility though, like I said I'll have to test it out.
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Amateur Opponent is god tier on BoE.
I was taking Follow Through as standard since forever, though. I didn't realise it wasn't a common pick. His low CDs mean you get pretty heavy value out of it.
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United States4883 Posts
On August 27 2016 08:36 Aceace wrote:Bruiser type Artanis? Artanis is a bruiser already. But a weird one. Sc2john i respect your opinion but i think you are doing it wrong. I should start with numbers first (No ultimates included): Artanis (base) without talents deal 360 dps. (Only W spam) Artanis with Nexus blades deal 420 dps (Only W spam) Artanis with Nexus blades+Seasoned marksman deals 540 dps (Only W spam. No Marksman Bonus Speed) Artanis with your talent build deals 510 dps (only W spam) For burst part it only deals approximately 2300 dmg in 4 seconds. (Burning rage messes up exact damage.) I don't think we can count it as a big burst. For reference Raynor with W spam w/o seasoned marksman stacks deal 510 dps. Ofc, giant killer, executioner etc can increase this number quite a lot. Sonya with regular build (FO, WotB, MS, NoS, IP) deal 2540 dmg in 2 seconds for burst. These numbers are for reference. "Tank" Artanis with 2 offensive talents at 1 and 20 can deal almost same damage with a AA assassin. Not the same but almost.. Show nested quote +On August 26 2016 14:29 SC2John wrote:
You can't build for Sonya-level of damage because Artanis simply isn't as tanky as Sonya.
"Tank" Artanis is actually tankier then Sonya but under some situations. 1) If you stunlock Sonya before NoS and IP she is dead. Also after these abilites goes cooldown Sonya isn't tanky anymore. Artanis isn't that dependent on cooldowns. 2) Tank Artanis has approximately 7400 hp with shields (I don't believe shield decay at 16 is important at all. You are taking damage continously) Sonya has 5100. 3) Eventho Sonya life steal, Artanis gains shields as long as not kited. (I'll mention it below) 4) Phase Bulwark offers constant %50 spell damage reduction if you manage to hit your Q Tbh Chrono Surge seems so underwhelming. Artanis has 1 APS. If you are in exactly melee range with your opponent and he stays for 4 seconds you manage to get 2 more hits. Yes. Thats all. And I don't think anyone stays in same position after Phase Prism. (Oh btw.. I hate Phase Prism. Probably THE slowest skill shot in the game ) I should mention Amateur Opponent. It wrecks mercs. It wrecks bosses. It wrecks buildings. But that means you give up 120 dps. Almost %28 damage increase. I prefer Seasoned Marksman over AO except Battlefield and cursed hallow. Cursed hallow is so big and so hard to stack bonus damage while fighting around curses. Reactive Parry is a bait. (Like Rancor) I have no idea why people still picking it. Also +1 second cd increase on triple strike is ridicilous Artanis is a bruiser with zero gap closer. Your teammates have to prevent your opponent to kite you by slowing or stunning them. This is the main problem. You completely rely on your teammates picks. If your team can offer some disable for you can deal surprising amount of damage. He works great with Jo, ETC, Jaina, Tyrael etc.. Going offensive talents at 4-7-13-16 does not increase his dps output but decrease his tankiness a lot. But he has good base dps and twin blades for damage increase. I believe he is in a good spot in EU meta. Eventho he isn't my highest winrate hero (Only %58 over 70 matches) he is my personal favourite + Show Spoiler +
Interesting. I'll revisit Seasoned Marksmen to see if I can get better results. In my experience Artanis's "tankiness" starts at half health, thus why I think he's less tanky than Sonya + Sonya has better damage mitigation and more up-time on her heals. I feel like Artanis builds are still a bit of an enigma.
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On August 27 2016 04:00 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2016 17:47 Leolio wrote:
That's a very interesting article on a hero I wish I was able to play in HL. I would have thought Amateur Opponent is the worst level 1 talent so your way of explaining its value is very interesting.
I'll try this bruiser build in QM, seems really fun.
Any advice on when Artanis should be drafted in HL ?
I thought that too for a long time. Then I started picking it O.O Not really sure where he stands on the drafting, I mostly just play him in QM (remember, I usually play him as a troll hero :p). I would say, though, that he needs to be in a double/triple Warrior composition alongside a tank who can really soak up damage and provide peel like Muradin or Johanna. He honestly can't sustain for more than 2-3 shields anymore after they changed the way the shield procs, so you also need some decent burst on your team like Li-Ming/Falstad. Gotta be careful of enemy picking Medivh, blinds, or Illidan. In terms of drafting position, he probably works best as a second round pick (after second bans).
Thank you. I've noted your advices and Rouaf's, and indeed will start drafting him like that. There's not many bruisers I'm good with (Thrall and Anub, that's all), so Artanis will be interesting to add.
Amateur opponent is definitely worth a try on BoE, especially if you have Sylv in the game (with or vs you don't matter, if Sylv's here you have to win all the objectives).
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United States4883 Posts
On August 29 2016 17:02 Leolio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 04:00 SC2John wrote:On August 26 2016 17:47 Leolio wrote:
That's a very interesting article on a hero I wish I was able to play in HL. I would have thought Amateur Opponent is the worst level 1 talent so your way of explaining its value is very interesting.
I'll try this bruiser build in QM, seems really fun.
Any advice on when Artanis should be drafted in HL ?
I thought that too for a long time. Then I started picking it O.O Not really sure where he stands on the drafting, I mostly just play him in QM (remember, I usually play him as a troll hero :p). I would say, though, that he needs to be in a double/triple Warrior composition alongside a tank who can really soak up damage and provide peel like Muradin or Johanna. He honestly can't sustain for more than 2-3 shields anymore after they changed the way the shield procs, so you also need some decent burst on your team like Li-Ming/Falstad. Gotta be careful of enemy picking Medivh, blinds, or Illidan. In terms of drafting position, he probably works best as a second round pick (after second bans). Thank you. I've noted your advices and Rouaf's, and indeed will start drafting him like that. There's not many bruisers I'm good with (Thrall and Anub, that's all), so Artanis will be interesting to add. Amateur opponent is definitely worth a try on BoE, especially if you have Sylv in the game (with or vs you don't matter, if Sylv's here you have to win all the objectives).
Amateur Opponent Artanis > Greymane against immortals
It's that powerful.
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I'm so glad I read this thread! Definitely has potential and a lot of fun.
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United States4883 Posts
I figured out what bothered me so much about Artanis and why I hate playing him most of the time. So, I was playing around with Alarak in the PTR just now and noticing how fluid his auto-attacks were, and I started wondering why Artanis's attacks felt so clunky. I loaded up a game of the new map to try it out and decided to load up Artanis because I didn't have Alarak. And then it hit me: Artanis has a horrible delay on his auto attacks.
To make sure this wasn't just ping-related, I loaded up a try mode game with Artanis to test it out, and sure enough, I was right. When Artanis auto attacks, he walks up the target, waits about 0.5s, and then begins his auto attack. The interesting thing is that once you initiate the auto attack, you can move before he's finished swiping and he'll still finish the attack (Alarak does not do this). I'm not sure if this is something that needs attention and needs to be fixed or if it's a quirk that I've only just discovered that will make playing Artanis a lot easier.
Going to make a video on the general topic of attack animations tonight.
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On August 30 2016 14:03 SC2John wrote:
I figured out what bothered me so much about Artanis and why I hate playing him most of the time. So, I was playing around with Alarak in the PTR just now and noticing how fluid his auto-attacks were, and I started wondering why Artanis's attacks felt so clunky. I loaded up a game of the new map to try it out and decided to load up Artanis because I didn't have Alarak. And then it hit me: Artanis has a horrible delay on his auto attacks.
To make sure this wasn't just ping-related, I loaded up a try mode game with Artanis to test it out, and sure enough, I was right. When Artanis auto attacks, he walks up the target, waits about 0.5s, and then begins his auto attack. The interesting thing is that once you initiate the auto attack, you can move before he's finished swiping and he'll still finish the attack (Alarak does not do this). I'm not sure if this is something that needs attention and needs to be fixed or if it's a quirk that I've only just discovered that will make playing Artanis a lot easier.
Going to make a video on the general topic of attack animations tonight.
I've noticed it too, it has something to do with his animation but yea it's like a laggy swing that starts later than it should but has a weird follow through.
What's irritating is that these swings also mess with your ability to time your abilities. Artanis can't use his W or E mid swing from an auto-attack or at least that's how I can explain it.
He's not the only hero with quirky things like this but it's definitely very noticeable on him when you put a lot of playtime into him.
Thrall by comparison has probably the smoothest melee gameplay of any of the damage dealers/bruisers I've tried out.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GBbrDXy.jpg)
