EPT
The Myth of MMR Hell - Page 2
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Zeon0
Austria2995 Posts
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Creager
Germany1895 Posts
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Ryzel
United States529 Posts
Perhaps playing anything other than a "carry" hero is a bad idea? At least for lower skill levels. Theoretically when you're playing tank/support you're not really playing at "your" skill level, but rather attempting to up the skill level of your team by saving them from mistakes. You're intentionally gimping yourself. One might argue that one should be able to carry themselves with any hero, but it's the nature of the game that some heroes have more impact than others. | ||
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Larkin
United Kingdom7161 Posts
On July 15 2016 06:46 Creager wrote: I play Rehgar as main since alpha, he's always been really good (even during his healbot period) and I'm pretty confident in my abilities playing him, but let me tell you, it's no use to be able to finish people when your damage dealers have absolutely no idea on what they're doing. I've played approx. 2000 games, half of them as support, 600 games with Rehgar alone and yeah, I might be suffering from Dunning-Kruger-effect as well, but let me tell you that when I play with a friend who has much higher rank, games are almost too easy as players up there just KNOW what they're doing, I can read patterns way better, decision making actually starts to make sense, people react to what I am doing, e.g. seeing when I drop a totem to chain stun and just going in for the kill. The idea that I'm just bad and belong to Silver has popped my mind several times, yet it's astounding how smooth games go when playing with people way above my suspected skill level. The game just isn't fun like this, supporting doesn't feel rewarding when every heal you dish out feels like a waste of mana and even commiting to wrong plays just for the sake of team play is just frustrating (even when telling them not to do it beforehand). When I was playing as Rehgar, I was taking out heroes 1v1 and doing more damage than a lot of my team. Yes, the damage dealers aren't as effective as at higher levels, but that doesn't mean you can't carry with him. Someone called my Rehgar play 'truly inspiring'. Go figure. That said, at low level HL, though it's great you have a main and such, you're gimping your chances of progress if you only play support because as much as it is possible it is not as easy to carry. On July 15 2016 09:27 Cephiro wrote: Carrying as support might be challenging but carrying as tank is extremely doable. (Mura/Diablo/ETC are all great heroes for that) I actually found it easier to carry as support than as tank. I think at low level you can solo tank with Sonya or something for kill potential/damage, though. On July 15 2016 15:37 MarlieChurphy wrote: Says it;s a myth, confirms that it takes 40 games for a diamond player to move up from bronze to silver. Right... If this were sc2 and a diamond players was on a bronze players account, in 40 games they would probably be back in diamond. Half the HL games are lost before the match even begins. Teammates not highlighting their picks or talking at all during draft about picks or bans. Players auto picking shit that is terrible vs opponents picks. Players afking their bans or picks. Players not even making coherent team comps (nova, zera, valla, sonya, azmodan or some shit) I barely played HL prepatch, and I was rank 10. Went 3-7 in placement and was placed gold 1. played with all these idiots and lost most games before they even started. Can't even ally with people on my friends list to rank up because they are diamond, people who were on the same skill level as me that I added since playing in alpha and recognized my abilities. I am best suited playing a tank or support, which can't carry at all. Not even going to go into the toxics, retards that claim they are 100% right and are always wrong, people who can't simply watch a minimap or soak lanes, people who do not know when to engage (team has full coins on BHB and chasing enemy team/pushing into fort), people who afk or DC, people who are straight up new to the game and asking questions about their hero or the map, people that do not know level 4 level 7 and level 10 power levels are important for deciding when to contest map obj or when to keep soaking/grab mercs instead, people who pick nova/zera and just run around the entire game solo trying to gank full hp heros when they are out of position (not watching minimap of course), etc etc 36 games - and that's just how the ladder system works? You only get a certain amount of points. It was unfortunate that two of my losses were promotion games, though, which then forced me to have to win 2 more to go up to the next division. But he set 40 games as the challenge after I reasoned I'd need about 6 wins in a row per division to get up. It's just how the points system works. On multiple occasions I found myself single digit points away from a promotion game, forcing me to have to play another and so on. The defeatist attitude of the game being lost before the game starts is precisely why you got stuck. Any game is winnable. People won't play perfectly, and neither will you, but if you're good enough, you can carry them through these mistakes. You know why? Because their team will be just as bad. They will make just as many mistakes that you can exploit. The idea that only your team is the one with these inexperienced/lesser skilled players is ludicrous. On July 15 2016 17:17 Zeon0 wrote: can you please post this on reddit? nobody reads TL heroes section The point of this thread was to get feedback before posting on Reddit. | ||
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Cephiro
Finland1934 Posts
On July 15 2016 15:37 MarlieChurphy wrote: Says it;s a myth, confirms that it takes 40 games for a diamond player to move up from bronze to silver. Right... This is simply a limitation of the system. While your MMR can get to that level faster, the rank system won't show it until a bit later due to the way it's designed. 5 wins per tier (4 for points, 1 for promo match) means 25 matches to rank up a league optimally. (Winning every single match). If you go on a 25-0 streak, you can be sure your MMR has risen more than one league's worth, but you'll just have to play a bit more to get it to actually show. On July 15 2016 15:37 MarlieChurphy wrote: I am best suited playing a tank or support, which can't carry at all. This is not true at all. Tanks are great for carrying, you can even make a huge difference in games of your own level or even higher. If you're stuck lower than where you think belong, winning matches with tanks should be a piece of cake. While I do agree carrying with supports is hard, in games which are supposedly lower than your own level it's certainly not. Those are perfectly doable. Once you get to your own level, it will be really challenging. But if the match is at your real level, you're not supposed to be able to solocarry to victory anyway. Another thing which wins games alone is shotcalling. If one possesses a higher level of decisionmaking and doesn't use it for the good of the team, they should only blame themselves for losing. While not every team or random player likes to listen to "someone starting to boss me around", being polite and making the right calls go quite far. With an approach such as "I think we should do X next time in this situation so we can follow up with Y, since doing this Z doesn't seem to be working out because of W", or similar, even the more stubborn players listen every once a while. Most of the time if you continuously make the correct calls, the team will realize that and just start following your lead. That also works vice versa, however. | ||
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Creager
Germany1895 Posts
On July 15 2016 20:40 Cephiro wrote: This is simply a limitation of the system. While your MMR can get to that level faster, the rank system won't show it until a bit later due to the way it's designed. 5 wins per tier (4 for points, 1 for promo match) means 25 matches to rank up a league optimally. (Winning every single match). If you go on a 25-0 streak, you can be sure your MMR has risen more than one league's worth, but you'll just have to play a bit more to get it to actually show. This is not true at all. Tanks are great for carrying, you can even make a huge difference in games of your own level or even higher. If you're stuck lower than where you think belong, winning matches with tanks should be a piece of cake. While I do agree carrying with supports is hard, in games which are supposedly lower than your own level it's certainly not. Those are perfectly doable. Once you get to your own level, it will be really challenging. But if the match is at your real level, you're not supposed to be able to solocarry to victory anyway. Another thing which wins games alone is shotcalling. If one possesses a higher level of decisionmaking and doesn't use it for the good of the team, they should only blame themselves for losing. While not every team or random player likes to listen to "someone starting to boss me around", being polite and making the right calls go quite far. With an approach such as "I think we should do X next time in this situation so we can follow up with Y, since doing this Z doesn't seem to be working out because of W", or similar, even the more stubborn players listen every once a while. Most of the time if you continuously make the correct calls, the team will realize that and just start following your lead. That also works vice versa, however. Can confirm this, constructive comments to guide your team can have huge impact, but to be perfectly honest I'm sick of typing rather than playing. Being helpful is great, but only to a certaib extend as it is not my duty as a player to educate my team mates all the time. On a constant basis this only adds up to frustration. | ||
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RouaF
France4120 Posts
On the other hand months ago I did an experience slightly different from OP, i created a smurf account and went to play with my friends who were between 1000 and 2500 mmr or so (I was 4K+). They know I'm good at the game and followed every single call. We went something ridiculous like 26-0 with most games being absolute stomps despite me playing every role, even support. That was an other way of proving that carrying is possible in this game. I also realized my friends weren't that bad, their micro was clearly decent and they knew their roles, how to position themselves etc. They just had no idea where to go around the map ! So with a decent shotcaller their MMR was probably closer to 3K~. | ||
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Creager
Germany1895 Posts
On July 15 2016 20:08 Larkin wrote: When I was playing as Rehgar, I was taking out heroes 1v1 and doing more damage than a lot of my team. Yes, the damage dealers aren't as effective as at higher levels, but that doesn't mean you can't carry with him. Someone called my Rehgar play 'truly inspiring'. Go figure. That said, at low level HL, though it's great you have a main and such, you're gimping your chances of progress if you only play support because as much as it is possible it is not as easy to carry. Well, I was a really aggressive Rehgar as well when it was absolutely unpopular and almost ahead of it's time (everyone was playing Uther and Tyrande back then lol), he's arguably the best bodyblocker in the game and pre-ult nerf (the self-casting one) I also did very decent in 1v1, yet his damage always has been abysmal, so I can't agree with your damage statement. It's often about how to take team fights, when to take them and which target to focus, in lower leagues people often just don't get it right and often there's nothing you can do as people just tend to behave wrong (e.g. running away from your team and healer just because you're getting chased, most stupid thing to do, dragging the team apart and giving the opposing team the upper hand). I've been playing many other (non-support) heroes as well, ofc, lots of Sylvanas, KT (but since their reworks they don't appeal to me anymore), Jaina (and yes, rework strikes again I fear), Thrall, Muradin, Leoric, but in the end I still prefer to play him .You are probably right, though about my mindset, as I really like the support role to be the true carry role, which it clearly is not (at least not in solo queue). It's really satisfying to save a team mate from a bad situation by bodyblocking the opponent from auto attacking until Q is up again etc. I guess, playing a kinda social and team-oriented role fits my personality best, but in HL it just feels the opposite for me, rarely any appreciation of good play, lots of bad play you can't compensate for. | ||
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Larkin
United Kingdom7161 Posts
On July 15 2016 21:40 RouaF wrote: Yeah shotcalling is extremely important in this game but it's quite hard to have people follow your calls in solo queue (no matter what level you are playing). On the other hand months ago I did an experience slightly different from OP, i created a smurf account and went to play with my friends who were between 1000 and 2500 mmr or so (I was 4K+). They know I'm good at the game and followed every single call. We went something ridiculous like 26-0 with most games being absolute stomps despite me playing every role, even support. That was an other way of proving that carrying is possible in this game. I also realized my friends weren't that bad, their micro was clearly decent and they knew their roles, how to position themselves etc. They just had no idea where to go around the map ! So with a decent shotcaller their MMR was probably closer to 3K~. Thanks for your feedback - I think it's a very important point that the most significant failing at lower levels is simple game knowledge - knowing when to engage, when to fall back, when to take camps, when to push an advantage and crucially when to end the game. I found it easiest to win on maps like Battlefield of Eternity where the objective is simple and wins the game for you. With Cursed Hollow, for instance, with all the camps/objective etc, it was harder to shepard the team correctly. A lot of the time, unfortunately, it does come down to luck as to whether people follow your calls. I had a Sonya who absolutely refused to listen to my requests to not go so ham as we had me (zag) and Morales who couldn't keep up with her. She was calling us idiots etc the whole time. But we managed to win anyway. I had a Jaina who went to clear top when I got everyone else, even the Russian Gazlowe, went Core with DK at level 20 - we got it to 50% before getting wiped. Again, she was calling us idiots. But sometimes, the team will go core or whatever when I call it and it results in a win. Luck of the draw. On July 15 2016 23:09 Creager wrote: Well, I was a really aggressive Rehgar as well when it was absolutely unpopular and almost ahead of it's time (everyone was playing Uther and Tyrande back then lol), he's arguably the best bodyblocker in the game and pre-ult nerf (the self-casting one) I also did very decent in 1v1, yet his damage always has been abysmal, so I can't agree with your damage statement. It's often about how to take team fights, when to take them and which target to focus, in lower leagues people often just don't get it right and often there's nothing you can do as people just tend to behave wrong (e.g. running away from your team and healer just because you're getting chased, most stupid thing to do, dragging the team apart and giving the opposing team the upper hand). I've been playing many other (non-support) heroes as well, ofc, lots of Sylvanas, KT (but since their reworks they don't appeal to me anymore), Jaina (and yes, rework strikes again I fear), Thrall, Muradin, Leoric, but in the end I still prefer to play him .You are probably right, though about my mindset, as I really like the support role to be the true carry role, which it clearly is not (at least not in solo queue). It's really satisfying to save a team mate from a bad situation by bodyblocking the opponent from auto attacking until Q is up again etc. I guess, playing a kinda social and team-oriented role fits my personality best, but in HL it just feels the opposite for me, rarely any appreciation of good play, lots of bad play you can't compensate for. I dunno, I was 1v1ing people as Rehgar all the time - Kerrigan, Valla, whatever. People at low levels underestimate your damage and it's easy with Wolf Run/Feral Heart to dodge a lot of their abilities. And they rarely kite properly, and if they do, you can chase them anyway. On an amusing note, people at Bronze had no idea what to do with my taking Cleanse. They couldn't believe that they were surviving etc. Same with ancestrals landing. It is still more than possible. I get what you mean about the satisfaction, though. Maybe try getting a teamleague group together. That's really fun to play support in. A lot more rewarding than in solo queue HL. | ||
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MotherFox
United States1529 Posts
* If someone "belongs" in gold, could they carry their way from bronze to silver? * If someone gets lucky during placements and gets placed in gold despite belonging in bronze, will they just float in gold? * What if someone has skills which allow them to happily coexist in diamond, but don't have skills which let them carry in low-league games? These kinds of questions will lead believers in MMR hell to disregard your post,and the rest of reddit to up-vote it. (which is to say, it will be upvoted a lot, and get a lot of comments from people unhappy at your conclusions.) | ||
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Larkin
United Kingdom7161 Posts
On July 16 2016 00:51 MotherFox wrote: * If someone "belongs" in gold, could they carry their way from bronze to silver? Yes, absolutely. But the question of 'belonging' is pretty subjective, no? Surely the way to figure out if one 'belongs' in a certain league is, well, if they're able to carry themselves there? I believe I 'belong' in Master league, but I keep falling just short of promotion from Dia1, despite my play (mostly) being good enough - I have faith that I will be able to put a streak together to lift myself up one more tier. It's the same deal. On July 16 2016 00:51 MotherFox wrote: * If someone gets lucky during placements and gets placed in gold despite belonging in bronze, will they just float in gold? I'm not sure placements work like that. My friend whose account I played on went 7-3 in placement playing with a guy who ended up Dia3 beating Gold-Plat level players, and still was placed in Bronze. If you belong in Bronze, you'll likely just end up there. If not, well, it's far easier for one bad player to throw a game and end up getting demoted anyway. On July 16 2016 00:51 MotherFox wrote: * What if someone has skills which allow them to happily coexist in diamond, but don't have skills which let them carry in low-league games? Then they need to develop those skills. It's possible to just healbot for example at diamond, following the team mindlessly and knowing how to use your abilities. But if they can't develop skills to carry or 'co-exist' in any team at any level they probably don't deserve to be there. | ||
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Pwere
Canada1556 Posts
It does take a few games to adapt to the different level of play, and the obvious threats like chain bombs and mosh pit are twice as dangerous. It's just something you have to accept on the way up. Ping a lot, type a lot, move up. | ||
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MotherFox
United States1529 Posts
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NonY
8748 Posts
What I'm thinking about is if your MMR goes up to a point where you can't carry hard anymore, so you're just winning 50% of your games, then personal point adjustments would have to get really massive if you're gonna do anything other than crawl to your proper rank. And having high MMR is a pretty big disadvantage for promo matches where point adjustments don't matter. Seems like promo matches should have their own MM rules (ignore MMR, only match against people of same rank). But then that's not fair to the other people in the game... Tricky. And a random observation: boosting someone from bronze to GM would take a LOT of games. I guess we already could have figured that out but this story made me face the reality of it. What a long climb. | ||
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karazax
United States3737 Posts
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Larkin
United Kingdom7161 Posts
On July 16 2016 08:16 NonY wrote: I've got some tangential curiosity about the ladder system. What league were your teammates/opponents at the start and at the end? And what were your personal point adjustments at the start and end? What I'm thinking about is if your MMR goes up to a point where you can't carry hard anymore, so you're just winning 50% of your games, then personal point adjustments would have to get really massive if you're gonna do anything other than crawl to your proper rank. And having high MMR is a pretty big disadvantage for promo matches where point adjustments don't matter. Seems like promo matches should have their own MM rules (ignore MMR, only match against people of same rank). But then that's not fair to the other people in the game... Tricky. And a random observation: boosting someone from bronze to GM would take a LOT of games. I guess we already could have figured that out but this story made me face the reality of it. What a long climb. Yeah, it's a hella long climb. I was hoping that after I went on a few 6-8 game win streaks it would soar me through the ranks. I actually did not get personal point adjustments until I was Bronze 2, I think. I got 1, then 3, then 6, then I can't remember the others. I thought it was strange I got no adjustments for some time. On July 16 2016 08:31 karazax wrote: I may have missed it, but what rank did you end up with on your friend's account after the 40 games? The second question is whether your friend is now losing a bunch and sliding back towards bronze? So the objective was to get from Bronze 5 to Silver 5, and he set me 40 games in which to do it - I got there in 36 games (W30, L6) and have not touched it since. He was playing on his own smurf in that time and is not going to touch HL until he feels ready. We're going to play unranked together in that time so I can teach him a few things. | ||
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LongShot27
United States2084 Posts
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Buckyman
1364 Posts
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dae
Canada1600 Posts
One requires you make a large positive impact on most games, the other just requires you to not make a negative impact. | ||
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NonY
8748 Posts
On July 16 2016 19:52 LongShot27 wrote: Players really hate to admit it but you really can get carried up to the high ranks as a shitty player and be stuck in hell as a good player. But that's the discussion isn't it? Are people bad at self-reporting? Are they bad at recognizing what skills and behaviors actually affect win/loss the most? I don't think the truth is so obvious. I don't think that being unable to face the truth is the only thing keeping the discussion going. In fact when I think of "can't face the truth", it lands me on the other side of the argument: people aren't willing to face the truth that the game is good at ranking you and you really are where you belong. Aside from people not knowing what kind of things they'll personally have to do in a game to make it a win that another player wouldn't do and would therefore allow it to be a loss, or not knowing what kind of things they did that made it a loss (a subtle throw like taking the wrong talent or doing the wrong thing in team fights), people aren't good at reporting how good they actually are on average. They don't count games where they have an excuse. They don't count games where they were "forced" to play a hero they're bad at. They think of their true skill level as their skill level when they're playing well and their team does drafts that they understand how to play in and when they're on the maps they understand how to play. All the other situations where they do poorly they think are exceptional, but the system doesn't care and it ranks it all. So there's a disconnect there between self-image and reality. The draft thing is really interesting to me because even at GM there are drafts that aren't too hard to understand where people will play as if they're in a completely different game. Some players clearly don't understand how to play a gank comp vs a push comp, how to know when they're the team that should be diving or the team that should be peeling and kiting, etc. Even when you know what you're supposed to be doing, you just might not be very experienced with it and not play it well. But the newb who just doesn't understand how to play his team comp is 10000% blaming the loss on his team's "dumb draft". Or the newb who knows how to play a hero only one (popular) way who doesn't make any adjustment for an unusual situation, and then thinks his teammates are idiots for advising him to take the unpopular talent, etc. 10000% gonna say his teammates were idiots who didn't understand his hero when in reality it's him not understanding the draft. The rub for me is that people who are stuck and think they're in MMR hell HAVE to be ignorant of something. They think they're doing what it takes to be recognized as a higher skill level but they're not. Every one of these players has knowledge about the game that they're really confident in that is just plain wrong. And they have no idea. Some of the things I've heard 2800-3000 MMR players with such confidence makes me roll my eyes so hard. I'm sure it only gets wackier as you go lower. Anyway, my point is, how are any of these players trustworthy sources? Some outside person has to evaluate them. I feel like the conversation has to start with someone in a position like this: GM player who has coached a bunch of players up a few leagues examines a bunch of games of a "stuck" player and judges whether they belong there or not. The player just reporting for himself is such a weak place to start. I think the GM player will identify the "fatal flaw" of each supposed victim of MMR hell. I'm intrigued by MMR hell and want to know the cases where someone really does get stuck where it seems they don't belong. But I think the vast majority of MMR hell cases come down to a misconception about what player behaviors and skills actually get more wins. | ||
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